[4th] making Magic Items more magic and less common - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

[4th] making Magic Items more magic and less common

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
oxybe
Aug 03, 2009 15:01:41 as the title states, i'm looking for advice. so to start, some background:

i love magic items, but too much is too much and not enough is bleh.

one thing i like about 4th ed is that you are less dependent on magic items overall, compared to 3rd ed. a weapon/implement, an armor and a neck thing, and you're done and golden. the rest is gravy.

the issue i have, however (and this came up in 3rd, and i'm sure it will in 4th once we start climbing up in levels) is how, overtime, you collect a lot of useless weapons & armor and whatnot that no one will ever use.

and this is magical stuff, not your footman's mass-produced longsword or hand-crafted ornate blade, but a +X magic sword of ass-whupping... where X is 2 less then the party average, and thus vendor trash.

to use an actual quote from our 3rd ed party (we're level 15) "you can only have so many pairs [bracers of defense] until they stop being interesting or magical". we stopped caring after our 7th pair of +1's i believe.

alternatively, i remember in pre-3rd where a group of 3rd or 4th level pcs might have a small handful of magic items amongs all of them, most being potions of cure wounds.

and getting a +1 weapon didn't really make much difference other then bypassing the defense of some monsters (this monster can only be harmed by magic weapons/you need a +X or better weapon to harm it/ect...). no real magic them. it made your to hit better, but other then the fightery types, it didn't matter much.

so i came up with an idea that i would like to know if something similar was tested by others:

Inherent Magical Bonuses
at level 3, 8, 13, 18, 23 & 28 the characters gain a "+1 inherent" bonus. nothing can raise or lower this bonus, which is added to attack rolls, damage & all defenses.

note that for extra crit damage dice, you require a "magical" weapon.

i've seen this idea tossed around a bit (or something similar) and wanted to know if people have been successful at this.

Magic Item Strength based on Character
instead of a "+X flaming longsword", or "+Y armor of awesomesauce", you have just a "Flaming Longsword" and "Armor of Awesomesauce". the exact strength of the weapon/armor will vary depending on the character's inherent bonus.

this means that a "Flaming longsword" in the hands of a 1st level character has no real bonuses (other then the standard turns all your damage into [fire] property), acts as a +1 flaming longsword in the hands of a level 5 character, a +4 in the hands of the level 18, ect...

this allows for characters to have their father's ancestral weapon throughout the game without having to worry about having to "upgrade" it or lug it around as it becomes less useful compared to the gear you can find/buy.

Plot Powers/Attunement
one thing i've heard over time is that magic weapons are now "mundane" and less "magical". now, while a sword that ignites into fire is magical as is, after selling your 10th one to help pay for upgrading your current one... well the magic looses it's luster.

one thing that came to mind was to borrow concepts from the artifact rules. by making the item "happier" you can unlock extra abilities or new ones. to use our flaming sword for an example:

-dipping it in a long-active volcano
-having it blessed by a fire efreet in the City of Brass
-slaying powerful water elementals
-using it to burn down a temple that opposes the Sun god
-ect...

now the power itself could be anything, really:
-dipping in volcano = causing a pillar of fire to rise at a given point
-blessing by the efreet = sheaths the owner in fire, harming the enemies around him
-kill water elementals = bonus damage against cold or water-based enemies
-burn down temple = causing a wall of fire to ignite an area
-ect...

whatever is thematically appropriate for the player, GM & story.

any thoughts on the subject?
#2
knishiuchi
Aug 03, 2009 19:04:01 It's a good idea and one that's been tossed around before in various forms. And yeah, even WotC is jumping on the bandwagon.

http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4pr/20090803

From the dungeon master's guide 2 preview:

"Chapter 5 also sets out a new system of rewards you can use instead of (or as a supplement to) magic items. Divine boons represent gifts from the gods or their agents, legendary boons express the accomplishment of great deeds of power, and grandmaster training reflects what happens when a player character learns from a legendary master."
#3
oxybe
Aug 03, 2009 23:44:12 yeah, the idea is itself a "brainstorming" process... trying to gather ideas and work them into something i can throw around the group. one of our members is going across the country for a month due to work so i'd like to maybe try this idea out and see how it pans over the course of a month.
#4
759mages
Aug 04, 2009 0:17:48 Why 3s and 8s, out of curiosity? Why not 4s and 8s, or 1, 6, 11, 16, 21, and 26 like the bonus that currently exists?

As for the idea, I like it. It's sort of like bringing legacy weapons back, a weapon that levels up with you. I'm looking at writing something similar so that I can playtest it later in my current game. I abandoned magic items for inherent bonuses for much the same reason (that and the incredible amount of time it takes to pick magic items when you're building a character at a level higher than first).

I can see it now: a campaign setting that revolves around a few powerful, legendary weapons that actually turn out to draw their power from their leader. Awesome.
#5
isenhertz
Aug 04, 2009 5:53:26 As an optional idea for making crits less item-dependent, I would look to a rule that emulates the Graceful weapon enchantment: something like "Highest Ability Modifier x Inherent Bonus" is certainly the easiest way to handle extra crit damage. You could even add a bonus depending on the type of weapon used.
#6
maelora
Aug 04, 2009 8:02:21 For a classic 'swords and sorcery' campaign, I find it easier to just adjust the monsters.

The following is assumed from a statistical point of view, as core to the game:

All players will have weapon, neck and armour items of the 'correct' plus.
All players with a plus of +4 or more will have masterwork armour'
All players will have weapon or implement specialisation

It's not too hard to reverse-engineer these bonuses and remove the actual feats or items.

Adjust for magic items by level

Monster Level AC All Attacks (vs AC or Defences)
1-5 -1 -1
6-10 -2 -2
11-15 -3 -3
16-20 -4 -4
21-25 -5 -5
26-30 -6 -6

Adjust for weapon or implement specialisation

Monster Level AC
1-10 -1
11-20 -2
21-30 -3

Adjust for masterwork armour

Monster Level All Attacks (vs AC or Defences)

1-15 -0
16-25 -2
26-30 -4

So taking all these into consideration, the Master Table looks like this:

Monster Level AC All Attacks (vs AC or Defences)

1-5 -2 AC -1 to all attacks
6-10 -3 AC -2 to all attacks
11-15 -5 AC -3 to all attacks
16-20 -6 AC -6 to all attacks
21-25 -8 AC -7 to all attacks
26-30 -9 AC -10 to all attacks

Adjust all monsters as above, and the game remains balanced without magic items. We also halve all monster HP, but that's just us. We also use a few low-level items to give us a slight edge and allow 'legacy' items that are tied to one specific character.
#7
oxybe
Aug 04, 2009 13:00:15 reverse engineering the monsters seem like a bit too much hassle for the results i'd like. keeping the bonuses inherent to the PCs will be less work on my end and puts the power in the PCs hands... basically instead of the monsters being "weaker", the PCs are "stronger".

as to why not 4/8/14/18/24/28, the 4s come a bit late for my liking for the bonus and at 1/6/11/16/21/26 is a bit too early. 3/8/13/18/23/28 or 2/7/12/17/22/27/ seem to be closer to what i would want and upgrades at a steady & consistent pace.

the legacy items in 3rd ed, as well as the 4th ed artifacts, are real big motivators behind this. i really liked the concept when it was introduced in 3rd, but the overall effect was lackluster as it involved a pretty big investment on the player's side and didn't give much in return. when i did use them, i "required" the feats but gave them for free after the personal quest/thing needed to attune yourself to the item was complete. i dunno if that was the rule as intended, but it worked great and added quite a bit to the game.

one concept that i though for armor was "reforging" it. i was talking with a few of my group's players last night about WoW and the professions when it hit me: something like the "nethercleft leg armor" that you would stitch/forge/imbue into your armor to upgrade it.

with enough usable bits of dragon hide, you can "upgrade" your scale armor into wyrmscale, or by having your leather armor treated by a divine being will transform it into starleather. starweave armor would be expertly-made cloth armor stitched with the hair of an angel or other divine being that can be used to a very corny end :P

this could be a quest in itself, as dragons probably won't allow you to harvest their hide willingly and i can't see an emissary of a deity hand out powerful goodies to just anyone.
#8
warcolonel
Aug 05, 2009 14:42:10 In my system:

At levels 1, 3, 5, 6, 8, 10 (and so forth), gain +1 to choice of Attack, AC, or NADs, no more than twice per tier. It allows strikers to gain bonuses to attack sooner than defenses, defenders to up AC quickly at a sacrifice to attack rolls. Players are still getting +2s over the tier, but they can choose when as if they were actually shopping for items themselves.

As for weapon abilities, a normal flaming sword will gain more abilities as you level, tiered and decided by the DM, suggested by the players. All weapons, implements, armor, and NAD boosters are quest rewards/loot. The party is going to be much better outfitted with other items, but I've imposed a rule that only one item in a secondary slot can be used in an encounter.

The major problem is players buying weapons outside heroic tier, for any system like this, since they are no longer providing any numeric bonus. How much should a Flaming weapon cost a level 17 player, if there is no difference (inherently) between the +1 and +4 version? And why should it cost differently at level 9 and 10? Which is why I made weapons un-buy-able, but obviously this won't work for everyone. One thing may be to have it cost what it would be when factoring in the player's bonus, but make sure to disallow one player with no attack bonus from purchasing weapons for players with +2.

Edit: There is also never a damage increase for weapons/implements.
#9
oxybe
Aug 05, 2009 16:38:57 i was thinking about the "weapon expertise" feat and how to implement that into the game.

has anyone tried something like the old "masterwork" weapons, or at least mastercraft rules in d20 modern?

you'd have different "tiers" of weapons that would add a + to the proficiency bonus the wielder would normally have:

regular craft (+0)
superior craft (+1)
expert craft (+2)
master craft (+3)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 oxybe Aug 03, 2009 15:01:41	as the title states, i'm looking for advice. so to start, some background: i love magic items, but too much is too much and not enough is bleh. one thing i like about 4th ed is that you are less dependent on magic items overall, compared to 3rd ed. a weapon/implement, an armor and a neck thing, and you're done and golden. the rest is gravy. the issue i have, however (and this came up in 3rd, and i'm sure it will in 4th once we start climbing up in levels) is how, overtime, you collect a lot of useless weapons & armor and whatnot that no one will ever use. and this is magical stuff, not your footman's mass-produced longsword or hand-crafted ornate blade, but a +X magic sword of ass-whupping... where X is 2 less then the party average, and thus vendor trash. to use an actual quote from our 3rd ed party (we're level 15) "you can only have so many pairs [bracers of defense] until they stop being interesting or magical". we stopped caring after our 7th pair of +1's i believe. alternatively, i remember in pre-3rd where a group of 3rd or 4th level pcs might have a small handful of magic items amongs all of them, most being potions of cure wounds. and getting a +1 weapon didn't really make much difference other then bypassing the defense of some monsters (this monster can only be harmed by magic weapons/you need a +X or better weapon to harm it/ect...). no real magic them. it made your to hit better, but other then the fightery types, it didn't matter much. so i came up with an idea that i would like to know if something similar was tested by others: Inherent Magical Bonuses at level 3, 8, 13, 18, 23 & 28 the characters gain a "+1 inherent" bonus. nothing can raise or lower this bonus, which is added to attack rolls, damage & all defenses. note that for extra crit damage dice, you require a "magical" weapon. i've seen this idea tossed around a bit (or something similar) and wanted to know if people have been successful at this. Magic Item Strength based on Character instead of a "+X flaming longsword", or "+Y armor of awesomesauce", you have just a "Flaming Longsword" and "Armor of Awesomesauce". the exact strength of the weapon/armor will vary depending on the character's inherent bonus. this means that a "Flaming longsword" in the hands of a 1st level character has no real bonuses (other then the standard turns all your damage into [fire] property), acts as a +1 flaming longsword in the hands of a level 5 character, a +4 in the hands of the level 18, ect... this allows for characters to have their father's ancestral weapon throughout the game without having to worry about having to "upgrade" it or lug it around as it becomes less useful compared to the gear you can find/buy. Plot Powers/Attunement one thing i've heard over time is that magic weapons are now "mundane" and less "magical". now, while a sword that ignites into fire is magical as is, after selling your 10th one to help pay for upgrading your current one... well the magic looses it's luster. one thing that came to mind was to borrow concepts from the artifact rules. by making the item "happier" you can unlock extra abilities or new ones. to use our flaming sword for an example: -dipping it in a long-active volcano -having it blessed by a fire efreet in the City of Brass -slaying powerful water elementals -using it to burn down a temple that opposes the Sun god -ect... now the power itself could be anything, really: -dipping in volcano = causing a pillar of fire to rise at a given point -blessing by the efreet = sheaths the owner in fire, harming the enemies around him -kill water elementals = bonus damage against cold or water-based enemies -burn down temple = causing a wall of fire to ignite an area -ect... whatever is thematically appropriate for the player, GM & story. any thoughts on the subject?
#2 knishiuchi Aug 03, 2009 19:04:01	It's a good idea and one that's been tossed around before in various forms. And yeah, even WotC is jumping on the bandwagon. http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4pr/20090803 From the dungeon master's guide 2 preview: "Chapter 5 also sets out a new system of rewards you can use instead of (or as a supplement to) magic items. Divine boons represent gifts from the gods or their agents, legendary boons express the accomplishment of great deeds of power, and grandmaster training reflects what happens when a player character learns from a legendary master."
#3 oxybe Aug 03, 2009 23:44:12	yeah, the idea is itself a "brainstorming" process... trying to gather ideas and work them into something i can throw around the group. one of our members is going across the country for a month due to work so i'd like to maybe try this idea out and see how it pans over the course of a month.
#4 759mages Aug 04, 2009 0:17:48	Why 3s and 8s, out of curiosity? Why not 4s and 8s, or 1, 6, 11, 16, 21, and 26 like the bonus that currently exists? As for the idea, I like it. It's sort of like bringing legacy weapons back, a weapon that levels up with you. I'm looking at writing something similar so that I can playtest it later in my current game. I abandoned magic items for inherent bonuses for much the same reason (that and the incredible amount of time it takes to pick magic items when you're building a character at a level higher than first). I can see it now: a campaign setting that revolves around a few powerful, legendary weapons that actually turn out to draw their power from their leader. Awesome.
#5 isenhertz Aug 04, 2009 5:53:26	As an optional idea for making crits less item-dependent, I would look to a rule that emulates the Graceful weapon enchantment: something like "Highest Ability Modifier x Inherent Bonus" is certainly the easiest way to handle extra crit damage. You could even add a bonus depending on the type of weapon used.
#6 maelora Aug 04, 2009 8:02:21	For a classic 'swords and sorcery' campaign, I find it easier to just adjust the monsters. The following is assumed from a statistical point of view, as core to the game: All players will have weapon, neck and armour items of the 'correct' plus. All players with a plus of +4 or more will have masterwork armour' All players will have weapon or implement specialisation It's not too hard to reverse-engineer these bonuses and remove the actual feats or items. Adjust for magic items by level Monster Level AC All Attacks (vs AC or Defences) 1-5 -1 -1 6-10 -2 -2 11-15 -3 -3 16-20 -4 -4 21-25 -5 -5 26-30 -6 -6 Adjust for weapon or implement specialisation Monster Level AC 1-10 -1 11-20 -2 21-30 -3 Adjust for masterwork armour Monster Level All Attacks (vs AC or Defences) 1-15 -0 16-25 -2 26-30 -4 So taking all these into consideration, the Master Table looks like this: Monster Level AC All Attacks (vs AC or Defences) 1-5 -2 AC -1 to all attacks 6-10 -3 AC -2 to all attacks 11-15 -5 AC -3 to all attacks 16-20 -6 AC -6 to all attacks 21-25 -8 AC -7 to all attacks 26-30 -9 AC -10 to all attacks Adjust all monsters as above, and the game remains balanced without magic items. We also halve all monster HP, but that's just us. We also use a few low-level items to give us a slight edge and allow 'legacy' items that are tied to one specific character.
#7 oxybe Aug 04, 2009 13:00:15	reverse engineering the monsters seem like a bit too much hassle for the results i'd like. keeping the bonuses inherent to the PCs will be less work on my end and puts the power in the PCs hands... basically instead of the monsters being "weaker", the PCs are "stronger". as to why not 4/8/14/18/24/28, the 4s come a bit late for my liking for the bonus and at 1/6/11/16/21/26 is a bit too early. 3/8/13/18/23/28 or 2/7/12/17/22/27/ seem to be closer to what i would want and upgrades at a steady & consistent pace. the legacy items in 3rd ed, as well as the 4th ed artifacts, are real big motivators behind this. i really liked the concept when it was introduced in 3rd, but the overall effect was lackluster as it involved a pretty big investment on the player's side and didn't give much in return. when i did use them, i "required" the feats but gave them for free after the personal quest/thing needed to attune yourself to the item was complete. i dunno if that was the rule as intended, but it worked great and added quite a bit to the game. one concept that i though for armor was "reforging" it. i was talking with a few of my group's players last night about WoW and the professions when it hit me: something like the "nethercleft leg armor" that you would stitch/forge/imbue into your armor to upgrade it. with enough usable bits of dragon hide, you can "upgrade" your scale armor into wyrmscale, or by having your leather armor treated by a divine being will transform it into starleather. starweave armor would be expertly-made cloth armor stitched with the hair of an angel or other divine being that can be used to a very corny end :P this could be a quest in itself, as dragons probably won't allow you to harvest their hide willingly and i can't see an emissary of a deity hand out powerful goodies to just anyone.
#8 warcolonel Aug 05, 2009 14:42:10	In my system: At levels 1, 3, 5, 6, 8, 10 (and so forth), gain +1 to choice of Attack, AC, or NADs, no more than twice per tier. It allows strikers to gain bonuses to attack sooner than defenses, defenders to up AC quickly at a sacrifice to attack rolls. Players are still getting +2s over the tier, but they can choose when as if they were actually shopping for items themselves. As for weapon abilities, a normal flaming sword will gain more abilities as you level, tiered and decided by the DM, suggested by the players. All weapons, implements, armor, and NAD boosters are quest rewards/loot. The party is going to be much better outfitted with other items, but I've imposed a rule that only one item in a secondary slot can be used in an encounter. The major problem is players buying weapons outside heroic tier, for any system like this, since they are no longer providing any numeric bonus. How much should a Flaming weapon cost a level 17 player, if there is no difference (inherently) between the +1 and +4 version? And why should it cost differently at level 9 and 10? Which is why I made weapons un-buy-able, but obviously this won't work for everyone. One thing may be to have it cost what it would be when factoring in the player's bonus, but make sure to disallow one player with no attack bonus from purchasing weapons for players with +2. Edit: There is also never a damage increase for weapons/implements.
#9 oxybe Aug 05, 2009 16:38:57	i was thinking about the "weapon expertise" feat and how to implement that into the game. has anyone tried something like the old "masterwork" weapons, or at least mastercraft rules in d20 modern? you'd have different "tiers" of weapons that would add a + to the proficiency bonus the wielder would normally have: regular craft (+0) superior craft (+1) expert craft (+2) master craft (+3)