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"Battery-Powered" Items

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
kieferz
Apr 07, 2010 17:54:14 So, I've been reading a few old Iron Kingdoms books that a friend of mine lent me, and I've taken a shine to parts of the mechanika rules. Not the item creation rules, those are too unwieldy for 4th edition, but I do like the idea of items powered by a "battery." So, I took a little while to come up with some rules for something similar in 4e:

For items from Level 1-5: reduce the base cost of the item by 100gp.
6-10: reduce by 500
11-15: reduce by 2500
16-20: reduce by 12500
21-25: reduce by 62500
26-30: reduce by 312500

An item needs to be powered by a battery of about the same level. Level 1-5 items need a Level 1 battery, Level 6-10 items need a Level 6 battery, etc. The battery is part of the cost of making an item, but the charging is not. All batteries hold 25 charges.
A Level 1 battery costs 25 gp to charge fully at 1gp per charge
6: 125gp, 5gp per charge
11: 625gp, 25gp per charge
16: 3125gp ,125gp per charge
21: 15625gp, 625gp per charge
26: 78125gp, 3125gp per charge

If an item has a daily power, it become a Charged power: it costs 10 charges from the battery to use the power, and it can be used as often as desired.
If an item has a property, at-will power, or encounter power: it costs 2 charges to activate all of them for the next 5 minutes. (i.e., pay 2 charges at the start of the encounter, and any properties apply, any at-wills are usable, and any encounters are usable--once.) If the user wants, they can pay another 2 charges for another use of any encounter powers, but it doesn't increase the effectiveness of any properties or at-wills.
If an item has both a daily power and a property, at-will, or encounter: it costs 1 charge to activate the property, etc. as above, and 5 charges to use the daily.

Now, for any interested in the thought behind the prices: I based costs on the following assumptions:

A magic item is useful for roughly 5 levels--after that the character will want a higher-level version.
A character will take an average of 50 encounters to gain 5 levels.
A character will average 5 encounters per day.

So: The total cost of a charged item should be roughly equivalent to a normal item after 50 encounters, which means 50 uses of properties, etc. or 10 dailies, or both. I won't bore you with the math, but the prices above fit that condition.

I realize that this system has a couple of implications: for one thing, it makes it easier to have a large variety of items, since you don't have to pay full price for something you only use once in a while. It also allows nova'ing with dailies, although that gets expensive quickly. But, I don't think that's a problem with my players. Any other thoughts on the system?
#2
countesskathleen
Apr 07, 2010 19:06:46 If I understand you correctly, you mean to lift the restriction of using only 1/2/3 Magic Item Daily Powers and only rely on gold as a balancing factor there (and perhaps carrying capacity of batteries).
That as well as being able to use an item's encounter power At-Will 25 times in early heroic for a mere 50 gp seems to me like it's going to create all sorts of trouble.

I'm unsure as to the intent of your battery system. It could either lead to some weirdly powerful magic item abuse or drain the party of its money for constant recharging or both (probably both).

The only real benefit I see is a semi-comical moment happening when some item's battery runs out in the middle of battery-less-land.
#3
kieferz
Apr 07, 2010 22:05:59
If the party abuses the no-limit powers, then they run through the gold that they get as treasure. If they run through the gold they get as treasure, they don't have gold to buy custom magic items...and my party knows that they probably won't get the item that they really, really want from some random monster...they'll get something useful, but not the key to the build they've been working on.

As an example, let's say that a level 1 group uses their item encounter powers 25 times over the course of that level, and that each of the 5 people has one item with an encounter power. They just spent 250 gold. That's about 2/3 of a level 1 item. If they do this for another level, having each gotten another item from loot/maybe buying something...that's 500 gold. Over 2 levels, they spent themselves out of a level 3 item.

Now let's take a higher level party, say...level 10. They've got 5 magic items each (since some of what they've gotten is upgrades from previous items, and they've paid to upgrade others, etc...) that are in the second tier (5 gp per charge). If they use their encounter powers at the same rate, they spend (5 people x 5 items x 2 charges per power x 25 powers x 5 gp per charge) = 6250gp in one level, or 5/8 of the money the DMG says I should give out that level, which restricts them to buying items of less than the party level. In the short run, yes, this strategy makes them more powerful, but in the long run...it costs them the opportunity to get items that they really want and that could be really helpful, and it keeps them from upgrading the items they already have, so the average power of their items is lower.

I also doubt that any player would really use their powers that much. For one thing, that's 2.5 times per combat. Are you really going to have that many situations in which the power is useful? Heck, are you going to have enough actions?

I also don't think my players are going to overuse the system like that. One of them, if I give him the numbers, will probably do a cost/benefit analysis. I suppose in other groups, it could be a problem, but the solution in that case is not to use this houserule.
#4
oldguygaming
Apr 08, 2010 0:14:06 I don't like the idea of introducing batteries for two reasons:

1. That's a level of technology that I don't want in my game. Once introduced, a player could attempt to build some other device that would be powered by a battery, or similar power source, that I wouldn't want them to have. Since the battery is already there, assuming that their idea is feasable, I would either have to allow the new item or arbitrarily say no. I hate having to say no for no good reason. It's bad enough with gun powder, arbitrarily saying that physics must be diffrent here, because it just doesn't work.

2. If a magical item is battery powered, that is effectively reducing magic to simple electronics. Magic items have been demystified in every edition over the years until now they are simply a commodity to be bought, sold, and manufactured by anyone who has the cash. I still prefer a more reverent view of magical items.

That being said, however, I don't see that battery-powered magic items would have any more balance issues than charged magic items which have existed for decades. Some items may require further restrictions on frequency. But otherwise, I don't see any reason that what you propose should cause any problems.
#5
kieferz
Apr 08, 2010 2:54:02 I actually get what you mean about batteries removing the mystique of magic. I wouldn't use this system in a lot of settings, but the setting I'm running is a sort of early-industrial period world...with magic. A lot of low-level items are mass-produced for armies and whatnot, and magic, at least low-level magic, is pretty well understood.

The "batteries" are magic reservoirs, I'm just not sure what to call them. Arcane Accumulators (which is what Iron Kingdoms uses) is a bit too restrictive, since I'm writing in divine items that run on batteries...Magic Batteries is too austere...I'm leaning towards Thaumic Vessels at the moment.
#6
pluisjen
Apr 08, 2010 4:18:58 I like this idea, and I was considering having an item that ran on magical energy reserves... in fact I already gave them one and figured I'd find out how exactly it worked later.

I might give this idea a try... it sounds like a good fit for the world of Ebberon where Artificers can already store healing energy in weapons that they can also put magical energy reserves in a metal cilinder so that they can activate powerful magics with them.
#7
countesskathleen
Apr 08, 2010 6:16:19 Well there are some cheesy options and betting on your players not finding out could go pretty pretty wrong.

Of the top of my head, you could essentially revoke the errata for bloodclaw and reckless for a marginal sum of gold (ask people if they'd buy a level x magic item not occupying a slot=charge cost to have those features back to pre-errata status).

Also recharging encounter powers most of the time for 250 gp apiece at level 15 with Torc of Power Preservation seems quite powerful.

A Medallion of Death Deferred makes you virtually undefeatable as long as it's charged since it provides surgeless healing as a daily power when you drop to 0.

A single dose of Keoghton's Ointment or any other surge-restorer/surgeless healing would practically make healing surges for sale.

That's just from skimming through the books, there's plenty of more ridicoulously powerful abuse possible. Withholding the items from them also won't work except if you deny them crafting their own items. Level restrictions on the ritual don't hurt as a +4 Torc of Power Preservation with infinite uses is plenty more useful than a +6 one that is not rechargable.

That said, making magic item daily powers rechargable isn't inherently a bad idea. You should just refrain from lifting the 1 daily per tier +1 per milestone rule or turning encounter powers into at-wills.

As an alternate rule of charged magic items you could try the following:
Price and design batteries as standard consumable items.
Then a battery could read as follows:
Power (consumable): Minor Action. Attach this battery to a magic item of the battery's level or lower with a Daily power which has been used today. The Daily power can be used again today. (The battery is drained of its charge and worthless)
or have other types of battery as well
Power (consumable): Minor Action. Attach this battery to a magic item of the battery's level or lower which confers an Enhancement bonus. Increase the Enhancement bonus of the item by 1 until the end of the encounter. No other properties of the item change and no other battery can be attached to the item today.
Power (consumable): Minor Action. Attach this battery to a magic item of the battery's level or lower which has an Encounter Power. The next use of the item's Encounter Power during this encounter won't count against the limit of using that power only once per encounter and no other battery can be attached to the item today.

And of course if you want, you can charge an item tax on magic items by requiring that they are loaded with a generic battery each encounter or rendered inert...

#8
babyj
Apr 10, 2010 6:29:39 Got an alternative idea for this. I am gonna throw this out there, with all due respect and hope that you don't take it as thread-jacking but more of a friendly suggestion of an alternative.

I think the batteries addition is a bad idea. Takes the whole "Use this item when I really need it" thing and tosses that out the window.

Aside from not liking it, PEACHing the idea neutrally: batteries seems broken. It introduces the problems mentioned by other posters: magic item abuse possibility, the non-verisimilitude of having to turn down attempts to use the batteries for other purposes, and the spending of cash on magic item uses.

That being said, another option is to have a recharge in exchange for something that is of non-monetary value. As for sources, action points come to mind, as do healing surges.

Course...I would make it a less than desirable trade, since its not only an untraditional way of using magic items to begin with, but also to retain some form of balance; but it does what you want (sorta..gives them more magic item uses, but doesn't allow the characters 50 uses or anything; the last part being a decidedly GOOD thing imho)

My suggestion..

Add this feature, with no prerequisite:

Nova Item Empowerment
Trigger: You use the daily power of a magical item.
Free Action
Effect: You spend 2 healing surges or 1 action point, and you may increase the effectiveness of the power (subject to DM's discretion).

Then introduce new features available to ritual casters:

Resurgent Item Recharge
Minor Action
Requirement: You have mastered the ritual Enchant Item. You must be touching the magical item in question (it can't just be in your bag).
Effect: You can, as a minor action, spend 2 healing surges with no hp recovery to recharge a magical item's used-up daily power. Alternatively, you can, as a minor action, spend 1 healing surge with no hp recovery to recharge a magical item's used-up encounter power. (this scales with level, since its always relative to the character's hp value)

Active Item Recharge
Free Action
Requirement: You have mastered the ritual Enchant Item. You must be touching the magical item in question. You must have gained the action you spend through a means other than resting. It must be your turn or outside of combat.
Effect: You can, as a free action, spend an action point that meet the above requirement with no benefit to recharge your choice of the magical item's used-up daily power or used-up encounter power. (this is less accurately scaling, and probably a worse trade, but is another possibility that comes to mind)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kieferz Apr 07, 2010 17:54:14	So, I've been reading a few old Iron Kingdoms books that a friend of mine lent me, and I've taken a shine to parts of the mechanika rules. Not the item creation rules, those are too unwieldy for 4th edition, but I do like the idea of items powered by a "battery." So, I took a little while to come up with some rules for something similar in 4e: For items from Level 1-5: reduce the base cost of the item by 100gp. 6-10: reduce by 500 11-15: reduce by 2500 16-20: reduce by 12500 21-25: reduce by 62500 26-30: reduce by 312500 An item needs to be powered by a battery of about the same level. Level 1-5 items need a Level 1 battery, Level 6-10 items need a Level 6 battery, etc. The battery is part of the cost of making an item, but the charging is not. All batteries hold 25 charges. A Level 1 battery costs 25 gp to charge fully at 1gp per charge 6: 125gp, 5gp per charge 11: 625gp, 25gp per charge 16: 3125gp ,125gp per charge 21: 15625gp, 625gp per charge 26: 78125gp, 3125gp per charge If an item has a daily power, it become a Charged power: it costs 10 charges from the battery to use the power, and it can be used as often as desired. If an item has a property, at-will power, or encounter power: it costs 2 charges to activate all of them for the next 5 minutes. (i.e., pay 2 charges at the start of the encounter, and any properties apply, any at-wills are usable, and any encounters are usable--once.) If the user wants, they can pay another 2 charges for another use of any encounter powers, but it doesn't increase the effectiveness of any properties or at-wills. If an item has both a daily power and a property, at-will, or encounter: it costs 1 charge to activate the property, etc. as above, and 5 charges to use the daily. Now, for any interested in the thought behind the prices: I based costs on the following assumptions: A magic item is useful for roughly 5 levels--after that the character will want a higher-level version. A character will take an average of 50 encounters to gain 5 levels. A character will average 5 encounters per day. So: The total cost of a charged item should be roughly equivalent to a normal item after 50 encounters, which means 50 uses of properties, etc. or 10 dailies, or both. I won't bore you with the math, but the prices above fit that condition. I realize that this system has a couple of implications: for one thing, it makes it easier to have a large variety of items, since you don't have to pay full price for something you only use once in a while. It also allows nova'ing with dailies, although that gets expensive quickly. But, I don't think that's a problem with my players. Any other thoughts on the system?
#2 countesskathleen Apr 07, 2010 19:06:46	If I understand you correctly, you mean to lift the restriction of using only 1/2/3 Magic Item Daily Powers and only rely on gold as a balancing factor there (and perhaps carrying capacity of batteries). That as well as being able to use an item's encounter power At-Will 25 times in early heroic for a mere 50 gp seems to me like it's going to create all sorts of trouble. I'm unsure as to the intent of your battery system. It could either lead to some weirdly powerful magic item abuse or drain the party of its money for constant recharging or both (probably both). The only real benefit I see is a semi-comical moment happening when some item's battery runs out in the middle of battery-less-land.
#3 kieferz Apr 07, 2010 22:05:59	If the party abuses the no-limit powers, then they run through the gold that they get as treasure. If they run through the gold they get as treasure, they don't have gold to buy custom magic items...and my party knows that they probably won't get the item that they really, really want from some random monster...they'll get something useful, but not the key to the build they've been working on. As an example, let's say that a level 1 group uses their item encounter powers 25 times over the course of that level, and that each of the 5 people has one item with an encounter power. They just spent 250 gold. That's about 2/3 of a level 1 item. If they do this for another level, having each gotten another item from loot/maybe buying something...that's 500 gold. Over 2 levels, they spent themselves out of a level 3 item. Now let's take a higher level party, say...level 10. They've got 5 magic items each (since some of what they've gotten is upgrades from previous items, and they've paid to upgrade others, etc...) that are in the second tier (5 gp per charge). If they use their encounter powers at the same rate, they spend (5 people x 5 items x 2 charges per power x 25 powers x 5 gp per charge) = 6250gp in one level, or 5/8 of the money the DMG says I should give out that level, which restricts them to buying items of less than the party level. In the short run, yes, this strategy makes them more powerful, but in the long run...it costs them the opportunity to get items that they really want and that could be really helpful, and it keeps them from upgrading the items they already have, so the average power of their items is lower. I also doubt that any player would really use their powers that much. For one thing, that's 2.5 times per combat. Are you really going to have that many situations in which the power is useful? Heck, are you going to have enough actions? I also don't think my players are going to overuse the system like that. One of them, if I give him the numbers, will probably do a cost/benefit analysis. I suppose in other groups, it could be a problem, but the solution in that case is not to use this houserule.
#4 oldguygaming Apr 08, 2010 0:14:06	I don't like the idea of introducing batteries for two reasons: 1. That's a level of technology that I don't want in my game. Once introduced, a player could attempt to build some other device that would be powered by a battery, or similar power source, that I wouldn't want them to have. Since the battery is already there, assuming that their idea is feasable, I would either have to allow the new item or arbitrarily say no. I hate having to say no for no good reason. It's bad enough with gun powder, arbitrarily saying that physics must be diffrent here, because it just doesn't work. 2. If a magical item is battery powered, that is effectively reducing magic to simple electronics. Magic items have been demystified in every edition over the years until now they are simply a commodity to be bought, sold, and manufactured by anyone who has the cash. I still prefer a more reverent view of magical items. That being said, however, I don't see that battery-powered magic items would have any more balance issues than charged magic items which have existed for decades. Some items may require further restrictions on frequency. But otherwise, I don't see any reason that what you propose should cause any problems.
#5 kieferz Apr 08, 2010 2:54:02	I actually get what you mean about batteries removing the mystique of magic. I wouldn't use this system in a lot of settings, but the setting I'm running is a sort of early-industrial period world...with magic. A lot of low-level items are mass-produced for armies and whatnot, and magic, at least low-level magic, is pretty well understood. The "batteries" are magic reservoirs, I'm just not sure what to call them. Arcane Accumulators (which is what Iron Kingdoms uses) is a bit too restrictive, since I'm writing in divine items that run on batteries...Magic Batteries is too austere...I'm leaning towards Thaumic Vessels at the moment.
#6 pluisjen Apr 08, 2010 4:18:58	I like this idea, and I was considering having an item that ran on magical energy reserves... in fact I already gave them one and figured I'd find out how exactly it worked later. I might give this idea a try... it sounds like a good fit for the world of Ebberon where Artificers can already store healing energy in weapons that they can also put magical energy reserves in a metal cilinder so that they can activate powerful magics with them.
#7 countesskathleen Apr 08, 2010 6:16:19	Well there are some cheesy options and betting on your players not finding out could go pretty pretty wrong. Of the top of my head, you could essentially revoke the errata for bloodclaw and reckless for a marginal sum of gold (ask people if they'd buy a level x magic item not occupying a slot=charge cost to have those features back to pre-errata status). Also recharging encounter powers most of the time for 250 gp apiece at level 15 with Torc of Power Preservation seems quite powerful. A Medallion of Death Deferred makes you virtually undefeatable as long as it's charged since it provides surgeless healing as a daily power when you drop to 0. A single dose of Keoghton's Ointment or any other surge-restorer/surgeless healing would practically make healing surges for sale. That's just from skimming through the books, there's plenty of more ridicoulously powerful abuse possible. Withholding the items from them also won't work except if you deny them crafting their own items. Level restrictions on the ritual don't hurt as a +4 Torc of Power Preservation with infinite uses is plenty more useful than a +6 one that is not rechargable. That said, making magic item daily powers rechargable isn't inherently a bad idea. You should just refrain from lifting the 1 daily per tier +1 per milestone rule or turning encounter powers into at-wills. As an alternate rule of charged magic items you could try the following: Price and design batteries as standard consumable items. Then a battery could read as follows: Power (consumable): Minor Action. Attach this battery to a magic item of the battery's level or lower with a Daily power which has been used today. The Daily power can be used again today. (The battery is drained of its charge and worthless) or have other types of battery as well Power (consumable): Minor Action. Attach this battery to a magic item of the battery's level or lower which confers an Enhancement bonus. Increase the Enhancement bonus of the item by 1 until the end of the encounter. No other properties of the item change and no other battery can be attached to the item today. Power (consumable): Minor Action. Attach this battery to a magic item of the battery's level or lower which has an Encounter Power. The next use of the item's Encounter Power during this encounter won't count against the limit of using that power only once per encounter and no other battery can be attached to the item today. And of course if you want, you can charge an item tax on magic items by requiring that they are loaded with a generic battery each encounter or rendered inert...
#8 babyj Apr 10, 2010 6:29:39	Got an alternative idea for this. I am gonna throw this out there, with all due respect and hope that you don't take it as thread-jacking but more of a friendly suggestion of an alternative. I think the batteries addition is a bad idea. Takes the whole "Use this item when I really need it" thing and tosses that out the window. Aside from not liking it, PEACHing the idea neutrally: batteries seems broken. It introduces the problems mentioned by other posters: magic item abuse possibility, the non-verisimilitude of having to turn down attempts to use the batteries for other purposes, and the spending of cash on magic item uses. That being said, another option is to have a recharge in exchange for something that is of non-monetary value. As for sources, action points come to mind, as do healing surges. Course...I would make it a less than desirable trade, since its not only an untraditional way of using magic items to begin with, but also to retain some form of balance; but it does what you want (sorta..gives them more magic item uses, but doesn't allow the characters 50 uses or anything; the last part being a decidedly GOOD thing imho) My suggestion.. Add this feature, with no prerequisite: Nova Item Empowerment Trigger: You use the daily power of a magical item. Free Action Effect: You spend 2 healing surges or 1 action point, and you may increase the effectiveness of the power (subject to DM's discretion). Then introduce new features available to ritual casters: Resurgent Item Recharge Minor Action Requirement: You have mastered the ritual Enchant Item. You must be touching the magical item in question (it can't just be in your bag). Effect: You can, as a minor action, spend 2 healing surges with no hp recovery to recharge a magical item's used-up daily power. Alternatively, you can, as a minor action, spend 1 healing surge with no hp recovery to recharge a magical item's used-up encounter power. (this scales with level, since its always relative to the character's hp value) Active Item Recharge Free Action Requirement: You have mastered the ritual Enchant Item. You must be touching the magical item in question. You must have gained the action you spend through a means other than resting. It must be your turn or outside of combat. Effect: You can, as a free action, spend an action point that meet the above requirement with no benefit to recharge your choice of the magical item's used-up daily power or used-up encounter power. (this is less accurately scaling, and probably a worse trade, but is another possibility that comes to mind)