I'm trying to figure out hoe to run a campaign with the afforementioned demons and devils, but I've run into a slight problem in my understanding of the planes. Namely that demons come from the Abyssal plane and Devils come from Hell...
So what's the deal here? how far apart are these realms of existence? Is it possible to get the'r two denizens to work together?
I was hoping to have the adventures foil a plot of a demonic invasion of the physical plane but now with this whole devil thing I'm not sure which way i should go. Should I include some angelic or divine characters as well? would they fit in here or does that normal concept of Demons/Devil V. Angels/Divines nor fit into the D&D realm...
Hoping for some assisstance and input on this one my fellow gamers.
While it is not common for the two beings to work towards a mutual interest, it is not out of the realm of possibilities. Graz'zt, for example, is said to come from the Nine Hells before he became a demon after prolonged exposure to the seed of evil that sleeps in the deepest reaches of the Abyss. Despite the changing of his nature, no one knows if he is serving his own goals now, or if he is still an agent of Asmodeus sent to claim the Abyss and its secrets for the evil god. You could play off this angle to give the demons a reason to ally with the devils, if only just for show. Including Geryon from Dungeon 176 might be a great way to bring the two together as they both strive for Asmodeus in their own secret missions.
Hope this helps. Happy Gaming
Also I want to do the game in a modular kinda of setting... I mean with 1 large story told in six or so smaller chunks. I know I want them to start by trying to stop a cult from creating a portal to let the villains through and end with them killing a demon lord or some such.
Any suggestions?
With the exception of Graz'zt being a bit of a stumbling point, demons are strictly choatic evil beings, which translates typically into them being very predictable and direct in their lust to simply destroy everything. Demons are vicious, and not afraid of fighting to the very death.
Devils are lawful evil, and not nearly so direct. Whereas demons wish to destroy everything, devils instead wish to rule over everything. With the exception of erinyes, devils are created from the souls of dead mortals who were lawful evil during life. When such a person dies, they appear as a fleshy, rubbery entity somewhat resembling themselves at the time of death. They show up on the Shelves of Despond on the top layer of Hell, and bearded devils ferry them to what is essentially a sorting center, and then ship the souls off to the archdevil that has claim on them. On their appropriate layer of hell, the souls are then brutally tortured for quite some time in order to wring them dry of the divine magical essence that gives all devils their power. The dry soul shell that remains is then thrown away into some sort of processor (the exact nature of this varies from layer to layer). This then later emerges again as a lemure, a sort of agonized squishy blob and the very lowest of low of devils. From that point on, the devil's driving force is its ambition, and it will ever thereafter seek promotion through the devil hierarchy. With promotion comes a change into a more powerful form. This hierarchy travels right up to the devil lords and their archdukes themselves.
This bit from the Fiendish Codex II sums it up quite nicely.
Demons act on impulse. Even those that harbor long-term ambitions are easily distracted from them. Devils think, scheme, think again, and finally take action when circumstances reach a point of maximum favorability.
Demons enthusiastically fight to the death. Devils, as much as they enjoy violence, view it in a more calculating manner. They withdraw from any confrontation in which the risk outweighs the reward.
Demons battle the forces of good because they hate them. Devils fight good-aligned foes because where good is weak, souls are more easily harvested. Most devils view those of good alignment with amused contempt until they’re thwarted, at which point they become petulant and vengeful.
When corrupting mortals, devils appeal to reason by offering bargains laid out in detailed contracts. Demons simply exploit mortal urges and passions. Demons want to destroy mortal souls. Devils intend to own them.
As for including angels in the mix, while there are different types of celestials of differing philosophies, they do tend to wrok together to combat both demons and devils. However, in a bind, angels and devils will work together to repel demons if the consequences are dire enough. After all, the first devils were actually angels who were at the forefront of the war against the demons, but they fought their foe with such dedication that they were actually corrupted, becoming more like the demons so as to better thwart them.
Bearing in mind that even for their CR, demon lords will be exceptionally tough and challenging (not to mention that they're likely surrounded by minions), the demon lords in Fiendish Codex I (so in the 3.5 ruleset) range in CR from 19 (with Juibelex) to 23 (Demogorgon, the prince of demons himself). I don't know what the level cap in 4th edition is, but in 3.5 this would almost certainly require going into epic levels, even for the CR 19.
@Phoenix_Fire how is the devil campaign going? what are some issues or triumphs you've experienced from it?
Other questions still remain. Dod Angels and Demon still fight? or Angels and Devils? are ther like cross planar wars going on?
For the most part. Like all beings in the cosmos, Gods, Devils and Demons each have their own agendas, but when those agendas clash, confrontation between divine forces and the followers of evil still occur with regularity. It's nothing so ongoing as it was in the days of Asmodeus' first betrayal, the Dawn Wars, or the Blood Wars, but any big event between them is bound to spurn interaction, whether it be peaceful (as peaceful as possible) or violent.
Anything that occurs in your campaign would likely fit this bill, so go nuts
The devil campaign is going well, although it's still in its infancy. I have big plans for the party, but we're only on our third adventure, and the first introductory one was the only one to actually have any devils in it. However, it was fairly epic.
The challenge I'm currently experiencing is figuring out exactly how much strain I can put on the party. They started at level 8, not level 1, and almost everyone I'm playing with knows how to build a character really well. So I'm still trying to figure out exactly how much I can challenge them. The final battle of that adventure had the party facing three erinyes and a level 9 half-fiend favoured soul (which on her own would have been around a CR 12). This level 8 party managed to handle a CR 14 encounter without nearly as much difficulty as they should have. Mind you, that was my first adventure, so I probably didn't run it as well as I should have. Also, that battle was still quite intense. They actually used tactics, took advantage of the environment and each party member's unique abilities. If they hadn't worked as a team as well as they did, I think the fight would have been a lot tougher.
I guess that is what I would recommend. Throw a few really challenging, climactic encounters at your party, so that they must work together to overcome the challenge. When they do, it'll be immensely rewarding.
Also, in order to help you with your story, I would strongly advise you to look up the Book of Vile Darkness, the Fiendish Codex I, and the Fiendish Codex II if you can, in order to give yourself some inspiration. I understand that they're 3.5 books and that you're likely running 4th edition, but they've got all sorts of interesting things in there that just help you figure out who and what the major evil powers are in the cosmos, and what their motives are.
For the inciting incident I was thinking about Having the characters guarding a small diplomatic procession heading from one kingdom too another. They diplomats would be trying to cement a pace between the two recently warring kingdoms. On it's way the Procession gets attacked by a some "bandits" with an uncommon number of wizards with demonic familiars.
These bandits are actually members of a new cult that is trying to keep that kingdoms at war so that neither can spare the resources to try and stop the cults activities.
What do u think for a starting event??? any suggestions?
Perhaps if they miss the tattoos, someone from the city who might be investigating could come up to them afterwards and be like "we know these people attacked you. After close examination of the bodies, we found they all had marks that looked like ______. Do you know what that mark is supposed to mean?"
Was also thinking of adding a high priest with extensive knowledge of demons as he spent his life fighting them. I was thinking he would be this kind of Battle hardened former cleric turned high priest or something. just as NPC AID. Maybe not put him directly at the castle but somewhere they'd have to go to ask him question.
A cleric shouldn't be difficult to encounter. If they need to be healed after the fight, or get some holy water before another encounter, or really for just about anything, they can go get help at the local temple.
An idea that I've been playing with is an "Organic Weapon", that is to say a weapon that can grow along with the story. It starts out as a normal weapon or piece of armor with only a few unique properties (Such as masterworked, or bound to the player in some way). But as the player learns more about it, or as the item completes more goals that it has set into it (basically leveling) It becomes stronger to keep pace with other items that can be bought.
I like the idea because of the story telling aspects of it, but I'm not really sure how to do it without making it overpowered.
My first idea was a "Weapons of Legacy" type item, but I don't want it to be that powerful nor that straightforward.
Any suggestions? please feel free.
The organic sword could attach itself to the player and instead of the sword becoming a demon, the character has to make will saves every time s/he enters a battle and if the PC fails the save the sword transforms the character into a demonoic being and just attempts to kill everyone. At the end of combat the character falls unconscious and doesn't remember anything while the sword goes back into a dormant state. The save could be once a day whatever.
Overall the idea has great roleplaying opportunities, and I wouldn't worry about balancing the sword's power against other magic items, just make it exactly how you want. You can always add drawbacks to the weapon itself.
Like; it might be a +5 human bane sword, but everytime it deals damage to a creature that isn't human, it adds ability damage or hp loss to the wielder.
Or perhaps to get the sword to bind to a character they must accept ability damage to use it otherwise it's just a regular odd looking sword that deals nonleathal damage.
The sword could whisper in the mind of the wielder making concentration an impossible task, so the wielder cannot use any skills that require concentration (like a barbarian raging)
Maybe it is a sacred weapon and since a lot of demons can use planeshift and teleport spells or the like, maybe once per day there's a percentage chance that 1dX demons appear out of nowhere to claim the sword for their own.
There are lots of different things you can do to balance out the power of the sword without actually hurting its abilities. Just my thoughts. Happy DMing.