Elves, classic fantasy race.... Much liked, and also very maligned. Often quite stereotypal. At times said to be overdone.
So, here, I offers you this.... Could an elven culture be different from the classic stereotypes, clichés... Could we have a culture/tradition of 'likeable' elves, humble, sans the haughty snobs clichés, by example?
That is it, I want ideas, I want concepts - but not just different for the sake of being different, and NO 'Take That' bits.
Show me, guys!
A fresh, original or at least nice take on them.
Kinda like the Areneal (?), not a bad idea to twist the thing around (albeit they still have a cold haughtyness, I think...).
I built up the arrogance of Elves quite a bit and modeled them after the Roman Empire in the height of its power.
The idea behind this is that the Elves consider themselves the pinnacle of culture. They tried the isolationist route that seems to be the common Elfish theme, but it didn’t work, so they decided to just take matters into their own hands. They built up their army and have been slowing expanding and conquering all the neighboring kingdoms; subjugating all races into a life of servitude or slavery.
They justify the subjugation and slavery because all races that are not Elvin are inferior. The Elves are an older and much more civilized race, so only they can really know what is best for the other races.
The actual culture is very similar to the Roman Empire, the only exception being that instead of a senate there is a group or ruling Lords, and instead of an Emperor, there is a High Lord that is elected out of the ranks of the Lords.
There is also very little magic in this world so the mystical elves are a thing of the past as well.
Problem - I said that I want elves.
Actually you said that you wanted concepts and to generally explore the idea. You never actually said that you want to have elves in your game. So the suggestion to not include them (to change them into "nothing") is still very much on topic.
Also, if you're looking for off-the-wall concepts of a fantasy stand-by, anime is a good place to look. Vash and Knives from Trigun would be a great base to create elves from. In the anime, they are called "plants". Sounds pretty "feyish" to me.
My point is that I think Elves as a concept is still worthy... but needs creative twists to be kept fresh, perhaps. And I am tired also of the 'no elves!' calls or 'take that' options - like making them evil b...
Not bad ideas, though. More? I think this thread could be usefull to some DM.
The Grey Mountain elves were once the White Mountain elves, they delved into the mountain, building beautiful glades and forests in the mountain range hights, and were at peace with all those around them. It may have been the threat of the Dolman Castes (a human kingdom nearby that turned evil), or some internal problem, but the elves turned to technology and alchemy. The mountain turned grey as blast furnaces turned out exceptional weapons by the score, and neighboring kingdoms learned to fear the monstrosities which periodically left the mountain, whether to put fear into the hearts of any who threatened the elves, or just because an experiment had failed and was discarded.
I didn't actually have orcs in this game, and the half-orc PC race was actually called the Yoni, one of the elves more successful breeding programs with goblinoids and humans (and maybe even dwarves) which are a slave race to the elves.
I mentioned two cultures, the other elves are the skinshaper elves. Who started the war between the two elven kingdoms is lost in history, but the victors are clear, the original elven forest was burnt to the ground, and the skinshapers hide among humans or in small patches of woods, always fearful of discovery. They gain disguise as a class skill and have to take at least one point of it, so they can pass as humans...
So how about it, evil, technology obsessed elves and cowering, destroyed elves hiding among humans, is that different enough for you?
Only, lately (by elf standards) the old strategy hasn't been working anymore. As the world gets more dangerous, elven settlements are falling like autumn leaves. Now elves are swiftly becoming endangered. So you have the elves fleeing the forests and forming little enclaves in human settlements, or making tiefling-style deals to try to preserve their way of life, or taking up wandering/fleeing full time. You see a lot of elf beggars, as they're not so suited to getting by in the fast-paced, market-driven, money-crazy (by elf standards) human towns.
Make them paranoid about racial purity (which is why they slaughtered the pacifist drow), exploit the environment to an extreme (smokestacks, slaughterhouses, slave labor camps, and strip mines), and expansionist.
There's the standard reversal of using the elves as Nazis.
Make them paranoid about racial purity (which is why they slaughtered the pacifist drow), exploit the environment to an extreme (smokestacks, slaughterhouses, slave labor camps, and strip mines), and expansionist.
*COughes* I'd hoped to see no 'changes around just for changes' and that is a bit too much 'take that' for me.
Beside, dwarves are MUCH more closer to that when twisted...
Immigrants sounds good to me. I'd use Jimb's idea.
Except that I wanted to see Elves here.
My second post was tongue-firmly-in-cheek. That's why I linked it to the wiki article for "pedantry".
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I would say that any fey race should never be a "good" or "evil" race. These are fey. They should not share our notions of morality.
I would say that any fey race should never be a "good" or "evil" race. These are fey. They should not share our notions of morality.
More, ah, precisely, *cough cough* I'd say that fey can be good or evil (see: Seelie/Unseelie Courts) but that their definitions of good and evil don't exactly match our own. There are some mythological fey, for example, that are upstanding beings of virtue, who tend to go out of their way to help mortals, and who routinely steal babies and replace them with changelings, just because they can. Most wouldn't consider baby-napping a good act, but those fey don't see any problem with it.
So you'd want to make elves not good (like they are often portrayed) nor evil (either drow evil or exaggerated-Nazi evil), but more unaligned with occasional extreme good and extreme evil tendencies. Above all, capriciousness is a good trait for more fey-ish elves. Maybe they're very isolationist, and refuse to speak Common, but they welcome any visitors who seek them out; they make them all feel welcome...but anyone who wears black or white has broken some thousands-of-years-old pact and must be instantly killed. Something weird like that, involving old agreements and fey-mortal interactions.
I'm rambling, but I think you get the idea.
Basically, they were more like 4E eladrin than 4E elves, but their culture was almost completely subterranian. In the past, demons invaded their world, and the elves were forced to retreat into a hollowed out mountain as their last fortress against the demons. Due to their magic, the elves could keep the demons out, but were likewise trapped in the mountain.
This reflected in their culture as well. Conditions of life were harsh, and the race as a whole became pragmatic and utterly realistic as well. Ceremonies like marriage or burial didn't involve long preparations, but became simple and quick events. Children were given their name immediately after birth, as it was unsure if they would survive the following month. Flirtation was nothing complicated, as the elves didn't know if they would survive to see the fruits of a flirt going on for a year or something.
After the dragons returned to "their" world and freed the "smaller" races from the demons, the elves slowly opened up to other people. The elves were the ones who made contact with the dragons first, and from then on adopted a stance as the protectors and guardians of the world, willing to aid the other races whenever possible. However, they remained pragmatic and somewhat sarcastic.
I like to model my elves after Native Americans. It's a cliche, perhaps, but it works for them.
You are not the only one.
Unique culture for elves:
Try a mix of different historical cultures and avoid the stereotypical choices (celts).
They are built as exact oppposites of my orcs. Where elves live along side the wild, orcs destroy villages and keeps, squatting until all food is ran out. Elves live for centuries while orcs live mere decades. Elves have maybe one child in a lifetime, orcs are known to sire as many as 20 or more offspring. elves treat the civilized races with open arms and do what they can to teach all to balance with nature. Orcs destroy everything in their path and know nothing of diplomacy, quarter, or taking prisoners.
Elves & dwarves still do not get along, but not in a hostile sense. Neither really understands the other and they're rarely found in eachother's company.
I'd go into my dwarves (exceedingly samurai based, not the drunk scotsmen), but we're here to talk about elves.
You are not the only one.
Unique culture for elves:
Try a mix of different historical cultures and avoid the stereotypical choices (celts).
I have been thinking yesterday of using some indian (India, not native americans) culture for elves.... It sounds not so out of similarities.
maybe like the southern indian groups, like Tamuls. Vegetarians, (albeit not vegans) mystic-turned culture, nature-minding... Ki power source classes perhaps, refited, holy archery art. Etc.
I have been thinking yesterday of using some indian (India, not native americans) culture for elves.... It sounds not so out of similarities. [...]
Interesting.
If you want to keep your players on their toes, you could use a completely different culture than what is usually expected from elves. For example aztecan - blood sacrifices included.
I have been thinking yesterday of using some indian (India, not native americans) culture for elves.... It sounds not so out of similarities.
maybe like the southern indian groups, like Tamuls. Vegetarians, (albeit not vegans) mystic-turned culture, nature-minding... Ki power source classes perhaps, refited, holy archery art. Etc.
Indian? Well, I thought about a dwarven culture based on ancient India (you can blame Larry Elmore for that).
Thai, Khmer, Vietnamese are also interessting cultures which could be used.
Ancient (Minoan & Mykenian) Greece and ancient Egypt are also good ideas.
Or use old african cultures.
I have an idea of a tibetan dwarven culture, another interesting match. Perhaps another more distant, kurds, caucasians, etc.
So... Hard-working, humble, orderly, clanic, etc... And the mountains!
(Malays and the like could be another options for cultures-fusions elves)
I remember an old (and a bit gimicky and corny, honestly) franco-belgian fantasy comic who did something like that - elves where like south american natives, dwarves kind of mongolians if I rmemebr well, orcs... something.
You are not the only one.
Unique culture for elves:
Try a mix of different historical cultures and avoid the stereotypical choices (celts).
Pretty much any aboriginal culture known for its naturalism (and wouldn't most of them, in comparison to technological invaders?) seems appropriate, and interest in such cultures is probably what ends up reflecting in D&D as "elves" in the first place, I would think.
You're right, a blend is probably the best idea. Maybe if someone were to find the common traits in all such cultures, they could be distilled down to "elves," i.e., those little dudes in the forest that know how to use a bow and are great hunters and maybe resent the intruders a bit and would have done something about them at some point if they weren't so badly outnumbered.
Elves are basically representative of native populations that have been displaced or exterminated or at least generally annoyed by colonists/invaders/western culture. In a sense, there may be some inherent racism in the concept, as the "humans" in this equation are (usually) the invaders and the indigenous people are "de-humanized" into elves.
Pretty much any aboriginal culture known for its naturalism
Hmm. I don't see how holding onto this is coming up with a "new interpretation" of elves.
I'm pretty sure "woodsy" elves have been covered. We've also had "sky", "sea", "underground" elves. Eladrin-ish elves are even kind of "urban" elves.
That's the problem, elves have been done so broadly that you'd have to really start mucking with their base conventions.
- Maybe "elves" aren't humanoid?
- Maybe they're more like a tinkerbell thing?
- Maybe elves are invisible spirits that possess other creatures?
- Maybe they're more like genasi, elemental in nature?
- Maybe elves are fallen angels/devils?
- Maybe elves are living beings of pure residiuum (or however you spell that)?
- Maybe they have no souls? They're like some sort of "born-undead" thing?
- Maybe they're themed after some type of animal?
- Maybe elves are cross-breeds between humans and dryads? And half-elfs are humans and nymphs? Drow are nymphs and shadar-kai?
- Maybe elves go through complicated and long "life stages" where they go from "fairy -> quickling -> half-elf -> elf -> eladrin -> drow -> fomorian" and they have to be hunted down and killed before they turn evil?
- Maybe the majority of elves are mindless and monstrous?
- Maybe they're raised as cattle by the majority of the world?
- Maybe they're ugly?
- Maybe they're not magical?
- Maybe they're strong and not agile?
- Maybe they're tough and not clever?
- Maybe they don't have a gender?
- Maybe they always have both genders?
- Maybe they have one of many possible genders?
- Maybe all elves are male and all orcs are female and they have to breed with each other?
- Maybe they're easily susceptible to addiction? (no legolas out-drinking a dwarf)
- Maybe they hate nature and want to destroy it?
- Maybe they're the world's anti-bodies created by primordials to destroy the creations of the gods?
- Maybe they're covered in feathers, fur, scales, or flowery leaves?
- Maybe I'm sick of maybes?
- a hidden elven kingdom, which is the sole survivor of a war between gods. They use dwarves, humans, half-elves , dwelves (dwarf-elf-hybrids) and sometimes even captured barbarian elves as slaves. This culture is partially based on ancient greece.
- a kingdom ruled by drow, who had conquered a human realm and adopted much of their culture, before founding their own realm. I use a mix of ancient Egypt and the classec drow culture for this.
- many elves (and drow) live just in small hidden communities somewhere in the wilderness and are nothing more than barbarians or primitives. Native american and african and other woodland cultures are the basis for those cultures.
(And I use a mix of celtic and indian culture for the dwarves.)
On a related note, I am now reminded of the eastern Spirit Folks now...
On a related note, I am now reminded of the eastern Spirit Folks now...
Did they work in the department of redundancy department?
(sorry i just like that phrase and i'm feeling silly cause it's friday)
Fodigg, I love the idea of multiple genders. Elves have always been somewhat androgynous anyways, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch. Perhaps, because their birth rate is so low, finding a partner of the appropriate gender is difficult, so elves have evolved the ability to switch genders, spinning a cocoon about themselves and emerging changed.
Or perhaps Elves have three genders - one to fertilize the egg, one to incubate it, and one to give birth to it. Thus, marriages would be groupings of three people, rather than two.
Perhaps, because their birth rate is so low, finding a partner of the appropriate gender is difficult,
Flip that one around and see what happens. I remember reading a sci-fi short story (whose title escapes me at the moment) where an alien species had 7 different genders; since they couldn't count on finding the right other gender(s) to reproduce, they evolved toward a long life and were somewhat elf-ish, but as a consequence when humans discovered them they were dying out due to low birth rates.
I'd keep elves stereotypical, because I like each race to have a type of personality. Who else would be the smart snobs? Dwarfs? I think this effort is great but I'd put it towards a race that is less explored. Make halflings more humble or heck, the two new races.
Too much stereotypes can be at times... boring/annoying. Like the 'All dwarves are the same' trope.
Elves like to study arcane magic, so maybe elves could be "the scholar race." Anything is acceptable to them, as long as it furthers the cause of magical study. They could be rare elites who establish the principles upon which the rest of the world's technology is built. Of course, this leads to quite a bit of isolationism, and naturally reinforces elves reputation for arrogance.
Or maybe elves could be much more beast-like in their tendencies. I've always liked the idea of elves having sharp teeth as well as long ears. Maybe elves can be wild, impish forest creatures who interact with humans playfully (much like elves in folklore.) Of course, elves could also be susceptible to becoming too beast-like. The Kuo-Toa are described as having a racial tendency towards madness, which serves as a dark temptation for all Kuo-Toa and disintegrates many Kuo-Toa communities. Perhaps elves have something like that, except that all elves must cope with the temptation to become savage.
I like to model my elves after Native Americans. It's a cliche, perhaps, but it works for them.
Agreed
In the beginning, the elves were the only race, with the Eladrin being elves that had been chosen by god, and settled in the holy lands. The dwarves arrived later from the east. And then "the Ancients" arrived with their human slaves, and created a European based empire, striving to bring all other races under their dominion.
The elves were driven into the deep forests (in Europe) and desert (in North Africa), while the Eladrin were subjugated, and shipped into ghettos across the empire. A few Eladrin fled into the desert, and after the fall of the Ancients' empire, they returned at the head of a new religion.
So there are four kinds of elves. The normal elves which live in the deep forest, and are still pretty isolationistic. They live in hidden cities, hunt the deer, and are generally pretty deadly to anyone who encroach on their territory. Though a few do trade with the humans. Pretty traditional.
Then there are the eladrin. They've been driven from their holy land, and believe that they have been done so, because that they have disappointed their god. So even though they could return now, they don't, as they are trying to prove themselves worthy again. They mostly still live in ghettos in the human cities, but have close connections with each other across national borders. As such they have amongst their numbers some of the most successful bankers and merchants, though they gain their fair amount of jealousy as a result. Which has resulted in purges in some cities. So the eladrin mostly attempt to keep a low profile, and try to appear suitably eager to please their local ruler, so as not to encourage that local ruler to kill them off, and confiscate their belongings.
And then we have the desert elves, or Saracen. The ones that still live in the desert are nomads and master horsebowmen. Terrible raiders when they want to, and generally pretty martial. Follow a fierce code of honor. Though they are all of the Saracen faith, they often battle amongst each other, seeking revenge for pasts wrongs.
Other Saracen, however, have followed their eladrin overlords, and conquered the lands bordering up to the desert. These have actually become quite civilized, possibly even more civilized than the humans on the other side of the Mediterranean. Renowned for their mastery of medicine, astronomy and philosophy. Though the Saracen faith declares that all shall be ruled by the eladrin, the eladrin overlords actually tend to be quite benevolent. Other races that live in their cities are not oppressed. And on the (long) occasions where they have held Jerusalem, they have generally allowed the other faiths free access to the holy sites.
Perhaps they're like savants; their overpowering insight to nature and unnatural accuracy is coupled with muted personalities and a lack of problem solving skills. They're simple and laid back, lacking social graces and empathy, but BOY can they shoot a bow.
My campaign has kinda landed in a "before all that happened" time. Nothing in forgotten realms, dragonlance or the like has ever happened *yet.* It's an interesting twist.
In fact, it goes far far before things like that. In fact, a player told me today he thinks our party should become the founding members of The Harpers. With the different gods, changes to prominent races, and magic working slightly different, it just seems like a correct thing to do to make it before(or afte)r the traditional D&D kind of atmosphere that we were used to.
Now, that said, each Eladrin we have run into so far were fashioned in an almost snobbish elitist high elf vein. They've been mean, nasty, Some have been brutal, even bloodthirsty.
They've almost became a sort of antagonist to our campaign. Not going so far as to say we've gone into elf encampments and headed into their dungeons and search out the head elf boss to kill because they've been terrorizing the countyside. NOT YET, anyway. But, they've been the ones pushing buttons, behind the scenes, dogged our adventurers with they're snobbish elite ways. They're always itching to fight, or lie, or backstab (not literally[yet]).
It's almost like since I ran the first Eladrin NPC like that, they've all gone that way. We even have an Eladrin PC who was instead raised by the 'nice' elves(non-eladrin elves).
It's occurred to me though, what I've done. Maybe someone who reads this has already caught it.
Far far before anything Forgotten Realmsy.
High Elves are bloodthirsty, decieptful, elitists.
There are "good" elves.
I've created the rift that happened many many years ago that creates the dark elves almost, and in not as many words. It hasn't, like, HAPPENED in my campaign or anything, but so far, it's there, and happening and my PCs possibly face the civil war that divides elves into what they are now in the Forgotten Realms.
Or am I misunderstanding?
...
The problem I had with elves is that they try to be too many things at once. I had the idea of condensing the numberless elven subraces into two seperate lineages (one nature-loving, one highly magical) long before the 4E elf/eladrin split was announced. Its a pretty logical fix, I guess. As with the dwarves, each of these races has one or two "main" homelands, with various less important nations scattered throughout the world. I'm still in the early stages of making up the eladrin heartland and culture (all I know is that its going to be very cold and snowy. Will probably end up heavily Norse-inspired), but the elves I've got down.
To start off, I looked at the traits most closely associated with elves. They live in forests, have small communities (usually ruled by a chieftan or monarch), and worship nature-type gods. On further thought, I decided that the elves might want to live in places with lots of ambient plant and animal life, on account of their affinity with primordial life. That means the main elf homeland is probably in a tropical rainforest. I like that, it keeps the forest theme, but puts a slightly different spin on it. Let's make them darker skinned to deal with the tropical sun; will help differentiate them from the pale-skinned eladrins.
Hmmm. Dark skinned...live in jungles...small, monarchic communities...I think my template for the elves is going to be the Maya.
As with the dwarven nation based on Japan, I'll be cleaning up the historical version to make it more player-friendly. The human sacrifices are right out, of course, as is the pathological deforestation (the elves can integrate living trees into their architecture, substantially reducing their lumber quota). One thing I like about the Maya are the big, stone monuments and platforms built like islands in the jungle. The elves are going to have to have those. Most elven communities are made from a mixture of stone and wood (both living and dead). Maybe some important temples or fortresses can be more prominent...we'll get back to that later.
Like the Maya, elves live in city-states of a sort. There are also nomadic tribes that roam the jungle between the sedentary groups, acting as traders and newsbearers. The nomadic ones don't make buildings, obviously. Each city state is ruled by a royal family, usually the descendents of the city's founder (or at least claiming to be). No central government or emperor-figure like the dwarves have. Dwarves are lawful. Elves are chaotic.
Chaotic probably implies that the royals don't have that much power. Instead of obeying protocols and conforming to codified, bureaucratic formulas, each elf has a voice (though not necessarily an equal one) in all affairs. Instead of following the letter of the law, they follow the ruler's proclomations in the way they best understand and see fit to do so. If someone is deviating far enough to be disruptive, he had better be able to come up with a good explanation. In this way, elvish social structure is more tribal than civilized, more able to function on a case-by-case basis than other societies.
Of course, a system like this can only work when you have a small population. Here's another big difference between the elves and the Maya. Elves have (very) long lifespans, an extremely slow rate of birth, and a serious fetish for trees. They aren't going to be clearing huge swaths of forest for agriculture. Elvish "farms" are really just regions of jungle that have been goaded into hosting a high concentration of edible plants and animals. This might be pretty and nondisruptive, but its also very inefficient compared to the irrigated fields of the other races. The elves have to wander much further from their homes to feed themselves, and each city can never have more than a few hundred people. In that sense, elves don't really have cities. Just towns. Combined with their informal legal and administrative traditions, this is going to keep elves from ever being a numerous people. Indeed, considering the amount of land they occupy, they are very, very few.
This led me to a conundrum. There are a lot of scary creatures in the jungles of DnD, and player races usually depend on numbers and the occasional adventuring party to hold their ground. Elves don't have numbers, so that leaves us with option B.
With their ridiculous lifespans, elves have more opportunity than most races to train. Take into account the dangers of their homeland, and the fact that elves are martial enough to have automatic weapon proficiencies by RAW, and it makes sense that elves spend hundreds of years learning to defend themselves. On an individual basis, the average elf is much more powerful than the average human or orc, simply by virtue of having more experience. If the typical human muscleman is a first or second level warrior, then the average elvish warrior is fourth or fifth level. Of course, younger elves are still first level, but they aren't the ones who are sent into harm's way...unless they are PC's of course. Note to self: if starting at first level, PC elves must be very young. Definitely less than a century.
Small groups of unusually skilled and well-trained warriors. Sounds vaguely Spartan, doesn't it? Yes. Yes, it really does. Elves wear medium armor when they aren't trying to be sneaky out in the forest, and favor tower shields and spears when fighting other humanoids. Of course, they also like bows. A lot. That's good; a nice mixture of classic Mesoamerican and Greek fighting styles. Makes them less of a copypasta. To move their more heavily armored troops around, let's give them riverboats, and have the locations of their towns and trade routes rely heavily on waterways. There's ample historical precedent for this. Also, since swords aren't really their thing anymore, they lose the automatic sword proficiency, and become proficient with spears and tridents instead. Makes them more phalynx-ish, and is also practical for hunting wild boars and the like, which elves probably do fairly often.
Mmmm. Pork chops. Let's talk about elvish cuisine some more.
An interesting inversion of the usual tropes (lol, another one down) is that my dwarves are bigger grain-eaters, and elves are more carnivorous. Usually, dwarves have big platters of red meat at every meal (where the hell are they raising cattle?), and elves have some Tolkeinesque breadlike substance of mysterious origin. Not anymore. Boars, taipars, deer, rodents, jungle birds, snakes, alligators, tortoises, elves know that their natural place in the jungle is that of a predator. Part and parcel with respect for nature, amirite? They harvest fruit, nuts, and yams, of course, as well as a little bit of maize and other jungle veggies, but they still have meat more often than most races. They don't deplete the wildlife population on account of their relatively low needs; elves are lighter and burn less energy than humans (justifying the -2 constitution penalty), and so they don't need to eat as often. Hmmm. Maybe elf dietary habits are sort of reptillian-ish. They only eat every couple of days or so, but when they do, they gorge themselves. Naturally, the few days before the feast will be spent gathering food for it. Makes them more fantastic and alien, which I like in fantasy races. The hunting means that cute animals don't love and follow them around like in most settings, to which I saw "BAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWW."
Speaking of alien, let's get something straight. Elves are NOT "hawt." Few things in mainstream fantasy annoy me as much as hawt elves. Elves are supposed to be thin, wispy, and, well, elfin. Some might find that attractive, but I don't. No more barely-dressed elf girls with gigantic cleavage either; simply because that's not "elfin" in the mythological sense. As their stats imply, elves are thin, wiry, and extremely agile. Maybe they look sort of treelike? Brown, rough-textured skin, long and thin arms and legs, and perhaps greenish hair and eyes. Yeah. Green eyes are awesome. Elves have green eyes. Making them awesome by extension. Not hawt, though.
We established last time that elves and dwarves trade a lot. The dwarves provide metal and stone for their buildings and weapons. The elves provide wood and cloth. Cloth...let's give them silkworms to make it more blatant. Elves are good at making textiles, whether made of plant fibers or silkworm secretions. Maybe +2 to Craft checks working with cloth? Sure, why not. Extend that to woodwork as well. In general, elves are good at working with organic materials. Nature guys, remember?
We're done with the practical stuff, I think. Now for culture. We've established that elves are pretty laze-fair, which gives them a lot of freedom to do different things, but cuts down even more on their manpower. Huh. I really want elves to have bigass stone pyramids buried in the deepest jungles and swamps, though. To use as adventure sites, if for no other reason. Okay, there can be exceptions. Multiple principalities (that's what I've decided to call each town. Elf leaders are "princes" then, I guess) might work together to build a colossal monument after a major historical event. These can be important cultural and religious landmarks. Maybe elven priests go to these structures to meditate or to commune with certain gods? Maybe at certain times of year. Perhaps some of the stone monoliths can be like stonehenge; primitive, solar calenders, raised on immense platforms of earth above the jungle. Helps them keep time, seeing as they don't have seasons to go by in the jungle. Flying overhead, one might never see an actual elf, but you'd see these big, mysterious temple-like stone and earth buildings sticking out of the trees every few miles or so. Like Ankhor Waht. That's a neat image.
Elves aren't all that good at manual labor, though. Even assuming that it takes them a long time to build stuff (time is their most abundant resource, after all), its hard for a low-con race to move stone and brick blocks around, even assuming that the jungle itself is helping them (living trees growing into foundations, etc). As such, the elves might hire other creatures to do at least some of the digging and carrying. They might hire dwarven craftsmen on occasion, but they shouldn't have to rely on them...not to mention that mindless digging and moving rocks around is sort of a waste of their engineering prowess. How about lizardfolk! They make great unskilled laborers, and they also live in the jungle. Elves hire lizardfolk to help with this kind of thing. To tell the truth, maybe the lizardfolk can replace (or live alongside) the nomadic elf tribes that move between the principalities. Some lizardfolk tribes are hostile, of course, but others would learn the advantages of cooperation with the elves. +1 racial diversity.
A few parting notes. Elves don't really have social classes, so pretty much any occupation is open to anyone. Hunters, craftsmen, priests, etc. Even the children of the prince or princess might not be that privileged, unless they are the heir to the throne. Clerics and druids are respected, but not formalized or organized, and with no dictatorial power. Anyone can become a priest, and priests are (often) listened to because they tend to have good ideas. No more, no less. For aesthetic reasons, we'll have elves wear lots of furs, snakeskins, and the like, with some clothing and armor even being made of living plant matter. Lots of feathers, too. Feathers are an important decorative item for most forest-dwelling cultures IRL, so the elves will collect them. I'm now imagining their Spartan-style helmets having manes of bird feathers instead of horsehair plumes.
So, those are my mostly-maya-but-also-kind-of-greek-and-cambodian elves.
More, ah, precisely, *cough cough* I'd say that fey can be good or evil (see: Seelie/Unseelie Courts) but that their definitions of good and evil don't exactly match our own. There are some mythological fey, for example, that are upstanding beings of virtue, who tend to go out of their way to help mortals, and who routinely steal babies and replace them with changelings, just because they can. Most wouldn't consider baby-napping a good act, but those fey don't see any problem with it.
So you'd want to make elves not good (like they are often portrayed) nor evil (either drow evil or exaggerated-Nazi evil), but more unaligned with occasional extreme good and extreme evil tendencies. Above all, capriciousness is a good trait for more fey-ish elves. Maybe they're very isolationist, and refuse to speak Common, but they welcome any visitors who seek them out; they make them all feel welcome...but anyone who wears black or white has broken some thousands-of-years-old pact and must be instantly killed. Something weird like that, involving old agreements and fey-mortal interactions.
I'm rambling, but I think you get the idea.
The eladrin in my current game setting are a lot like this.
In eberron, they're tribal savages. In 4e, they're not smart or magical (that's eladrin), they're naturalistic and renowned hunters.
Perhaps they're like savants; their overpowering insight to nature and unnatural accuracy is coupled with muted personalities and a lack of problem solving skills. They're simple and laid back, lacking social graces and empathy, but BOY can they shoot a bow.
Eberron elves aren't "savage," they have highly-developed societies and arts. They aren't exactly tribal either, though the Valenar come close. Now, the Valenar are very warlike, but so were the Romans and many of the Greeks, whom we Westerners consider to be the direct ancestors of our own civilization.
Elves in Eberron simply have a very different outlook than humans -- one that was intentionally based on their long lifespans, and is intentionally alien.
Which cliches are you particularly tired of? What do you consider to be essential for an elven race?
Ubbergeek,
Which cliches are you particularly tired of? What do you consider to be essential for an elven race?
It's mostly two opposite bits - the tolkienlike haughtyness and pride that seeps in much of the surface elves, and the frequent 'take that!' idea of turning them to evil biznatches.
As for what is vital... probably a certain tie to nature and/or magic, a logevity (albeit not necessarly insanely long - like, 300 years ). The pointy ears and lite figure. ;)
It's mostly two opposite bits - the tolkienlike haughtyness and pride that seeps in much of the surface elves, and the frequent 'take that!' idea of turning them to evil biznatches.
As for what is vital... probably a certain tie to nature and/or magic, a logevity (albeit not necessarly insanely long - like, 300 years ). The pointy ears and lite figure. ;)
OK. I'll think about it and come back later.
Have you looked at the Gloranthan (RuneQuest and HeroQuest) take on Elves?
The Aldryami, are plants, intelligent with thought processes very different from "standard" elves. Mongoose has a source book for their version of RuneQuest, that is excellent. It should not be very difficult to convert the stats to D & D. Most of the book is "fluff" for Aldryami in 2nd Age Glorantha, which is closer to generic fantasy than the 3rd Age and thus can be plugged into just about any setting.
So you're doing "proto-elves"? Elves before the split into elves/eladrin/drow?
Or am I misunderstanding?
I wouldn't say that I'm doing so, our campaign and atmosphere is something like that.
That here is a definite rift between the elves and eladrin and our timeline is somewhere way way before the typical forgotten realms era.
In the campaign setting I'm working on the Elves and Eladrin are at serious odds with each other due to a schism in the dogma of their shared nature god. The Eladrin believe that nature can be better worshipped in controlled and well trimmed parks and gardens, whereas the Elves want to revert everything back to its primal untainted state and some are willing to fight for that.
Eladrin: Close to the other races, technologically superior (live long and have high intelligences), self righteous in their desire to cultivate nature and make a better tomorrow.
Elves: Withdrawn from the other races. Most live with nature and are content, but some cells believe that their nature god is dieing and that something must be done to heal it, ie... throw down the false dogma of the Eladrin, disperse the peoples and allow the woods to take back the cities.
That's the gist, no spoiler version of it anyways.
The Eladrin/Elf split presents some good opportunities to get away from the old tropes.
In the campaign setting I'm working on the Elves and Eladrin are at serious odds with each other due to a schism in the dogma of their shared nature god. The Eladrin believe that nature can be better worshipped in controlled and well trimmed parks and gardens, whereas the Elves want to revert everything back to its primal untainted state and some are willing to fight for that.
Eladrin: Close to the other races, technologically superior (live long and have high intelligences), self righteous in their desire to cultivate nature and make a better tomorrow.
Elves: Withdrawn from the other races. Most live with nature and are content, but some cells believe that their nature god is dieing and that something must be done to heal it, ie... throw down the false dogma of the Eladrin, disperse the peoples and allow the woods to take back the cities.
That's the gist, no spoiler version of it anyways.
Interesting. I think I like the idea. Perhaps you can drive that even further, and escalate the conflict into a war between those races. It doesn't have to be a full scale war, but inherent hostility and raids and skirmishes would suffice.
I have elves in the skies and I have elves on what I call the Bottom Lands. The elves of the skies are your classic "holier than thou - we are the ancient race" type of elves that I am familiar with from classic D&D settings like ferune and krynn. Or the "half angel" beings of LotR.
The elves of the Bottom Lands are quite different however. They are the caretakers of a secret. The elves are not the ancient race. Their elders have access to what I call "The Pure Lands." Those Elendi that are allowed to visit the Pure Lands return with a newfound humility. Because they have seen the actual elder race - and it isn't the Elendi. These are more laid back and relaxed about everything. They greatly respect the ability of mans to maintain "civilized societies" despite their "dreadfully short" lifespans. They attribute any failures of a culture to the fact that they are rushing to accomplish that which an elf has the equivalent of a dozen lifetimes to accomplish. Instead of being superior about it - they tend to think humbly regarding how much easier is is for them compared to the Mans. Admiring their ability to learn in years what their children require decades.
I even came up with a "saying" that the Bottom Lander Elendi will use when speaking to a Mans.
"Run Mans Run - You have very little time to live your life."
Not sure if thats what you were looking for (is this "take that?" ) but its what stormed out of my brain regarding the subject.
now I read others stuff.
---> neat - heh - My Elendi are vegetarian (considering that they are plants thats kinda makes it full circle back to the moral quandary of eating meat ... of ... well I think you see what I mean - "flesh of my flesh" and all that)
I really like the "multi-sex" thing. Using a dual male system Tri-Sexual thing. Requiring two "males" (of two different types) to impregnate the female ... or perhaps .. hmm (strong biology background .... ) If you have two types of Male then you get into the question of how do you tell those two genders apart and do they have "societal roles" that differ or are they just "men" of which you require two of them to "get things done" ... on the other hand you could go to a double female system ... like ... say ... Males can impregnate certain types of females - but there is a vital element that must be given to the "mother" gender on a monthly basis (say elves with their extended lifespan also have extended gestation - 2 years) during a pregnancy to keep the baby alive. Then - both the mother and the other could have the ability to feed the infant.
OOh ... heres a better one. The mother gender is able to have but there is a third gender (the one most people would recognize as the female) that is able to feed the child during extended elves infancy (at least 5-10 years considering). Basically Male impregnates Mother. Mother carries fetus to birth. Female (or feeder? ) nurtures infant until its able to eat adult food. Three genders ... Male/Mother/Feeder.
Thats three genders without the messy (an pretty non-selective "takes two males" to get a girl pregnant thing (which is odd .. and hard to conceive of biologically). Having a "female/mother" that is then incapable of rearing the child is however allot more conceivable (pun intended). Particularly when you consider that with most tri-sexual species (mostly insects) the third is baseline female with some wonky that makes it unable to have children.
Considering insect statistics the feeders would be the vastly more common than either the males or the mothers.
I wonder how a tri-sexual biology would affect culture?
As a side note, I've always thought it would be neat to make Elves far more alien, and less human. Perhaps they are servants of the Far Realms - they have only the appearance of humanity, while their minds are mere shells, blasted away by the Horrors from Beyond. Of course, that would make them unplayable, but still...
I believe that those insects which are tri-sexual, rather than having a male, female, and a "feeder" instead have a male who fertilizes a females egg, who carries it for a short while then impregnates the third sex with it, which carries it to infancy and birth.
I've had something similar in an old setting (which is laying on ice currently).
One race (insectoids) was tri-sexual, with one gender providing the ****, one gender providing the egg, and one gender carrying the egg until hatching.
Another race (planetravelling scaled guys) were uni-sexual. They procreated by finding another of their kind, wrapping themselves up together in some sort of cocoon and then sort of "cloned" themselves. It required two people, because they would each give some of their memories and personality, as well as bodily mass to the offspring.
I wonder how a tri-sexual biology would affect culture?
One can say for sure that at least the definition of "being faithful" would need to be redefined.
One option would be to extend our "male-female" relationships into "male-female-X" relationships, not having a couple but a triple staying together. It would make running a household easier, I guess. ;)
An alternative would be that the concept of "lasting relationships" was completely unknown to such a race. They'd gather up to mate, stay together for as long as necessary to care for the offspring, and then go seperate ways again.
As a side note, I've always thought it would be neat to make Elves far more alien, and less human. Perhaps they are servants of the Far Realms - they have only the appearance of humanity, while their minds are mere shells, blasted away by the Horrors from Beyond. Of course, that would make them unplayable, but still...
Not necessarily. While "Astronaut's Wife" was pretty low imho, the basic idea could perhaps be salvaged into something workable for DnD.
Perhaps the "elves" as we know them are by themselves a pretty primitive, wild, and savage race. However, once they made contact with a strange portal, and their minds were "infested" with a seed from Far away. They quickly developed into a highly advanced and sophisticated society, without knowing where they came from. No Far entity retains knowledge of where it's been before, and thus they are more or less "stranded" in the elves' bodies.
Elf babies would be "baptised" by touching them to the portal, eradicating their "elf" part and planting in a new "Far" personality without memories. With time, the wizards deducted a ritual that made the portal superfluous, and implanting the "Far Seed" into each male's **** and each female's egg.
Yeah, I'm wierd. So what?
:PElf babies would be "baptised" by touching them to the portal, eradicating their "elf" part and planting in a new "Far" personality without memories. With time, the wizards deducted a ritual that made the portal superfluous, and implanting the "Far Seed" into each male's **** and each female's egg.
So then...what happens to half-elves? Do both parents need to have the Far Seed (in which case half-elves would be some sort of schizophrenic aberration, with the half-elf and Far Realm parts competing for control) or does only one parent need to have it (in which case half-elves are basically identical to elves since they have the same controlling intelligences)?
So then...what happens to half-elves? Do both parents need to have the Far Seed (in which case half-elves would be some sort of schizophrenic aberration, with the half-elf and Far Realm parts competing for control) or does only one parent need to have it (in which case half-elves are basically identical to elves since they have the same controlling intelligences)?
Good question. To be honest, I don't know. But that "two minds one body" things sounds cool. ;) Although it would probably be a PITA(tm) to play.
But I had another idea. Elves are... well, elves. Eladrin, however, are elves "possessed" by Far entities. This would explain why eladrin don't need to sleep and have an inborn knack for magic, as well as that freaky racial power (not to mention their wierd eyes). :D
Origins: The Elves were once part of the Celestial Choir. However, they became enamored with the mortal realm. When the great heavenly war transpired they were locked out from the heavenly realms. The forged for themselves the feywyld.. and nearly became lost to madness. The oldest remembered what they once were.. and it drove them insane. The Feywyld was a paradise for a time, until these mad ancient elves basically decided that the elves deserved annihilation.. so they corrupted the feywyld driving the elves/eladrin out. Another step down the evolutionary ladder.. and these "all powerful" spiritual beings.. were, for the first time, like the mortal beings they had once been so flippant about abusing and using.
Most elves, after this, drove themselves toward an austere life and away from madness. They believe that this control will one day return them to their ancient ancestry as members in the heavenly order. Only the rarest of them accept that this is the place fate needs them to be in.
My elves take life as slowly as they live it. They follow, quite closely, the mindset of Buddhist thoughts on the importance of focus. When an elf commits to a task, be it basket weaving or forging a sword, it is time to commit to that task and little else. Perhaps conversation is permissable if it is not too distracting, but any mistake made while talking would be percieved on a philsophical level as a kind of "karma" leveled against them for not having focus in their task.
This gives elves their fabled "perfection". But, it comes at a price of extremely narrow beings. Elf 1 may make the most beautiful baskets in the world.. and elf 2 might wield his sword like no other.. but, the two of them would never be able to do the other's task.
There are also times to "Celebrate" or "Sit down to eat" these, of course, aren't necissarily excelled at. During a celebration time elves would commence with whatever they thought was fun.. this "focus" on it however could devolve into something reminsicent of their time in the Feywild. Raucous acts of debauchery.. even bording on the perverse, unwelcome, and seemingly insane.
Human, Halfing, Dragonborn, Tiefling, etc. opinion on these elves: When a human encounters these elves. They are often asked to wait for hours on end for a meeting. This is because, it is not "Meeting Time" it could very well be "Bathing Time" or "Eating with Family Time" (The titles are just examples of actions of course.) There is also a set time for "Meeting Time" and when it is over.. it is over.
Dwarves: Dwarves would be more familiar with this aspect (my dwarves are different as well) of focused time, but they are far more moderate. Even to the stoic dwarves.. the elves are too rigid.. too unbending.. or, in times of celebration are borderline psychotics.
Social status is not something these elves consider at all. When a elf who has devoted his life to taking care of the stables.. meets an elf who is a noble.. the two simply act as a stableman and a lord 'ought' to act. The noble has absolutely zero disdain for the stableman.. and the stableman has zero jealousy of the lord. There is extremely little (and exceedingly disruptive) mobility between the classes.
Elves striving for the same focus will almost always come to a rivalry. Two people devoting their lives to gem cutting will want to prove who is the more focused, by proving who is the greater gem-cutter. Elves are not above being petty and many are the elves who undermine thier fellows to prove they are the most focused. Clearly, if their fellow succumbed to distraction (even death is a distraction) they were not committed enough to the task.
As adventurers: this gives rise to elven wizards/warlords/warriors/etc. often developing rivalries with fellows where, it will be understood, eventually one will prove the greater. This will usually end in the death of the other (as far as players go, this could be understood to be hundreds of years after the actual campaign if it doesn't want to be dealt with)
Elves simply do not discuss these rivalries. However, many are the elves who commit themselves to blood feuds as their goal. This has exacerbated into family feuds where one or both families is almost completely wiped out by the other. Often, a duel will decide the one on one feud before it gets out of hand.
How elves perceive other races:
Humans, halfings, etc.: These races are too short lived to understand much of anything. They're also rarely more intelligent than animals. Elves, living hundreds of years, possess large foundations of facts, knowledge, and understanding that other races simply cannot. These "animals" however are far too dangerous to simply ignore. So, much like the noble and stableman... the "elf" and "other" approach is almost universally observed. Among elves.. this is disdain.. when among other races.. it is largely aloof and parenting placation.
Dwarves: Dwarves "get it" and because of this.. elves don't trust dwarves. The race is longer lived and wiser than elves believe they should be. They have valid claims to being an older race (elves being from the Feywild experienced almost total annihilation in my campaign world do to the culture shock of the "Mortal Realm") and their civilizations have waxed and waned for millienia. While the other races largely are in awe of the elves.. the dwarves aren't impressed and this both infuriates and impresses the elves. More than a few have decided they have finally found a mortal race that can stand beside them.
On half-breeds: ALL half-elves are called humans. Only a pure elf.. is an elf and any elf who is too "humanized" is under extreme suspicion of racial mixing. This is beyond taboo. Some families have been exiled at best.. annihilated at worst. The Feywild in my world is a bit of a ulta-spiritual plane.. and the elves remember being members of this otherworldly order.. they are not mortals and expect one day to return to the feywild. They must be kept pure for that day. The Feywild, while able to be reached, is not inhabited by anything friendly.. so, the elves (and Eladrin) are exiles themselves.
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So, is it a hundred percent different? Not even close.
But the traits that I have displayed here.. as I portray them in my campaign.. create a VERY different elf than people are used to.
Okay... That was a random musing that came to me yesterday.
Elves, classic fantasy race.... Much liked, and also very maligned. Often quite stereotypal. At times said to be overdone.
So, here, I offers you this.... Could an elven culture be different from the classic stereotypes, clichés... Could we have a culture/tradition of 'likeable' elves, humble, sans the haughty snobs clichés, by example?
That is it, I want ideas, I want concepts - but not just different for the sake of being different, and NO 'Take That' bits.
Show me, guys!
Hmm-- that seems to be what the Eladrin are, now. My elves are basically just primal forest lovers. Like the ol' wild elves (rather than high elves or gray elves). They're just people of the forest-- not malign or anything. Very likable, in fact, and get along with other nature-dwellers and nature-lovers quite well.
The eladrin, on the other hand, in my game are like a cliche french culture. They're the haughty snobs, with an eye for fine wine.