A More Dangerous Game: Houserules PEACH - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

A More Dangerous Game: Houserules PEACH

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Ocule
Dec 21, 2011 21:31:19 My original blog post: community.wizards.com/ocule/blog/2011/12...

These are some houserules i thought might improve the game for people who want a more dangerous game. And they are pretty much ported over from older editions thought i should give them credit.
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For some reason lately there has been a huge thing about making the game more difficult. At least this is the case on the VT because of said optimizers so i decided to compile a list of houserules that might be used to tweak the system to make even vanilla adventures a tad more dangerous. Using a few of these rules can increase the challenge rating of the game without the need for too much tougher monsters or over elaborate death-trap style dungeons and could work in even a regular game assuming players are cool with it. Anyways i am going to post each rule with a few variations under each on how the rules can be adjusted. I am aiming for a few things here, the first being simplicity. I dont want to over complicate the game with elaborate rules so they are something easily memorized. Second they should make the existing game more challenging and last they should actually speed up the game instead of bog it down.

-FUMBLE: Whenever you make an attack roll of natural 1, your
turn immediately ends, and you grant combat advantage
to all attackers until the start of your next turn.
If the roll is part of a close or area attack, resolve
all the other attack rolls before ending your turn. (DMG 189)

-CRITICAL SUCCESS AND FAILURE: On a skill or ability check, a roll of natural 20 is a critical success and a roll of natural 1 is a critical failure.
On a critical success, the check automatically succeeds, and you gain a +5 bonus to checks with that skill until the end of your next turn. In a skill challenge,
add one extra victory to the tally. On a critical failure, the check automatically fails, and you take a –5 penalty to checks with that skill until the end of your next turn. In a skill challenge, add one extra defeat to the tally. (DMG 189)

NOTE: I usually default all my games to the two rules above.

-Massive Damage Threshold: When a creature takes damage equal to or greater than its bloodied value from a single attack it must make a saving throw with a bonus equal to his/her Con modifier. If the saving throw fails it is immediately reduced to 0 hit points.

Variations:
1) The damage threshold doesnt have to be bloodied, you can assign any reasonable amount of damage to constitute a 1 hit KO. These thresholds can be 25 to 50 damage and get similar results
2) Instead of a saving throw one can call for an endurance check since its 1/2 level + con mod +training to succeed. In that case make it equal to a medium or hard DC for the level of the creature that dealt the blow.

NOTE: This will likely be dangerous to use for characters. Standard creatures usually cannot deal bloodied value damage on a critical hit, however elite monsters and solo monsters will be able to deal this sort of damage to some players, most should be able to on a critical encounter power. It will speed up combat however due to more creatures dying quicker since PCs can deal that sort of damage to a monster much more frequently. At level 1 with a PC of 28 HP, an attack will need to deal 14 or more damage to based on the original variation.

Death threshold: A creature dies when it reaches -10 or fewer hit points.

Variations: This can be adjusted to a fixed number below 0 that it will take to die. Also using a player's surge value instead of bloodied value is a viable option. So they die at negative surge instead of negative bloodied.

NOTE: This here will be extremely perilous to impose on players. It seems it has become common for at least 1 pc in every major battle to fall unconcious due to damage and be miraculously revived. This will make the thread of 0 hit points much more real and more avoided than oh ill just get healed. However this also means players will die more frequently due to damage than failed saving throws.

TOUGHER MINIONS: The Minion can be targeted by melee or ranged attacks, although it lacks hit points. If a single melee or ranged attack deals damage to the minion equal to 10 + one-half its level or higher, the minion dies. Otherwise, the minion is unaffected by the attack.

Also giving it a 1d4+ Its current damage value. At level 1 it would be 1d4+5 would also do the trick wouldnt be a bad idea.

NOTE: This last rule may increase encounter durations but it would negate those spells that do stupid low amounts of damage to kill a minion. Like the 2 damage area from Orbmasters incendiary detonations from the zone itself. Any direct hit should be enough to kill the minion but i was using the spirit companion rules for their HP. This requires a certain amount of damage in order for them to be killed so they arent killed using what people now refer to as "minion poppers" howeevr i would no longer consider them minion kills for the purposes of power effects
#2
pluisjen
Dec 22, 2011 2:54:35 I'll give the potential pitfalls of your rules...

Fumble:
Multi-attackers will get the shaft. Anyone who drops an attack on 5+ creatures should probably have all his other actions spent because odds are good he won't get more. People who make multiple attacks in rapid succession are really screwed because if you miss your first Twin Strike shot, you aren't getting the second.

Crit success/fail:
Giving two failures could make skill challenges really hard. You can only get 3 failures anyway, and since the DCs aren't very high, there's probably a 20% chance of a failure and a 5% chance of two failures. That's substantial. It'd make skill check rerolls very important if you want to pass a skill challenge, but those are really hard to get.
Crit success on the other hand probably won't be all that major. They're expected to pass most checks anyway (it's why you need so many more successes then failures)

Massive damage:
Optimised Strikers will love this. They can and will break the treshold fairly easily. Anyone who isn't a Striker on the other hand, won't be able to use it. Since massive damage bypasses remaining HP, anything except big Striker hits and accuracy/damage boosts for said Strikers become practically irrelevant. Mark Punishment? Who cares; the monster will probably die by failing a save, not by HP damage.
It'll probably make the one Role that doesn't need it shine even more.

Death treshold:
At -10 on higher levels, most characters will probably not "go down", they'll just die outright. This was a major issue in 3.5 as well. Using surge value can help to make going down far more dangerous, but -10 is probably just going to make going down instant death. This is especially dangerous for characters who like being bloodied because it's suddenly become a major risk.

Tougher minions:
With a damage requirement of 10+half level you've basically removed the Controller role from the game. You do realise that a Wizard can't deal that kind of damage in a burst, yes? Their best at-will comes in at 1d6+5, which means that he needs to hit and max out his damage roll in order to kill a level 1 minion, and that's assuming he put a 20 in Int.

If you're going this route, you should stick to something like 5+quarter level. That'll deal with all the "minion killer" powers without making the controller's bursts useless. Though, honestly, if you really want Minions to be deadly you should learn how to use them more effectively. Because even with those powers, they can be extremely potent already.
#3
Reg06
Dec 22, 2011 10:06:21 Fumble- All fumble rules are bad. An automatic miss on a 1 is bad enough. Fumble rules do nothing but punish players for choosing the wrong class.

Massive Damage Threshold- Strikers are the only role that matters. And seriously, isn't taking half your HP in damage bad enough? Strikers now do double damage on their novas.

Death Threshold- Many, many character builds are based on being bloodied. Many powers activate upon hitting zero (indeed, the minotaur's racial power is based on hitting zero). Again, you're just punishing players who choose the wrong build, and those with low HP. If you want 0 to be more of a threat, consider this (which I've been in a game that used);
Bleeding Out - When a creature is at 0 hp or below it loses 2 hitpoints (4 at Paragon, 6 at Epic. Increase those amounts if you feel necessary) at the beginning of each turn. Each time a creature fails a death saving throw it takes damage equal to half its healing surge.
This makes being unconcious a real threat, and not something you want to toy around with. But it doesn't make being unconcious equal death.

Tougher Minions- How about using better tactics and better minions?

If you want a tougher game, use better monsters, and run them intelligently. Save Versus Death has plenty of good, deadly monsters, as does the Monster Vault and Nentir Vale. I have no trouble threatening my players, even with at level encounters (heck, I almost got a TPK with a below level encounter using umodified monsters from Nentir Vale). I killed an Avenger in our first session with minions because no PC could get to the unconcious PC after the minions knocked it down.

One house rule I have considered adding to increase the threat is to add 1/2 level to the DC of heal checks, which would make HP management way more important for parties with low heal leaders.
#4
Ocule
Dec 22, 2011 13:29:16 I kind of like the add 1/2 level to the DC of heal checks. But as for the death threshold i like that rule alot going to run some test adventures to playtest these new rules. Only one that makes me uneasy is the massive damage idea i dont know how that one played out in 3.5. The goal of these rules was to make bouncing around low hp or repeatedly falling unconcious as a stupid idea. I think the idea of a class that thrives on being bloodied, is stupid period. I like the bonuses for below bloodied but it should still be dangerous. Also ive played many games with almost no player deaths yet someone gets KOd every fight which is also ridiculous. So with these rules i was hoping to make the game a little tougher without it killing someone every session like Save versus Death (4core) dungeons will do. It would make defensive feats and powers more desirable as well as combat alternatives.

Bleeding out is viable but looks like it makes it more to keep track of which i was trying to avoid, also they are less permenant. By making it half your bloodied value instead of full bloodied value it will make remaining at low hit points too dangerous forcing HP management. The massive damage threshold would probably spare solos and elites considering say on a +5 saving throw bonus on a solo, plus their con mod is a guarenteed save or just make them immune.

The minions eh, random idea because someone was complaining minions died too easy, and i saw them in my game die too easy to just stupid effects. Like hazardous terrain.
#5
slobo777a
Dec 22, 2011 14:57:52

The minions eh, random idea because someone was complaining minions died too easy, and i saw them in my game die too easy to just stupid effects. Like hazardous terrain.

They are meant to die of course. But there's usually a fix for terrain - just make them immune or partally affected (slowed perhaps) to the terrain in the planned battle. Best if it makes thematic sense of course, e.g. fire sprites that hang around the lava pits ought to have resist 10 Fire or better . . .

#6
stargazer_dragon
Dec 25, 2011 12:10:53 I always assigned my minonions a damage threshhold of there lvl which ment most player attacks killed them outright but some secondary effects didn't, more or less though minions r suposed to die, simply spread them out so AOe don't pop them down like mad and they live up to a standard ruff 4 hit to kill and deal easaly the damage that a standard would do, group minions and beg for them to fall to fast
#7
Reg06
Dec 25, 2011 12:58:29
Only one that makes me uneasy is the massive damage idea i dont know how that one played out in 3.5.

The damage threshold is a bad idea. A Wizard starts with 20 to 22 hitpoints. A 1st level Brute will activate the massive damage threshold with a single non-critical hit.
The goal of these rules was to make bouncing around low hp or repeatedly falling unconcious as a stupid idea. I think the idea of a class that thrives on being bloodied, is stupid period. I like the bonuses for below bloodied but it should still be dangerous. Also ive played many games with almost no player deaths yet someone gets KOd every fight which is also ridiculous.

What about Rocky Balboa, John McClane, Gears of War, or Boromir? Just to name a few. Suffering tremendous punishment, but continuing on is a common trope.
So with these rules i was hoping to make the game a little tougher without it killing someone every session like Save versus Death (4core) dungeons will do.

The game can be made tougher without messing with the mechanics at all. Just use better monsters and tactics. My home game is pretty harsh because of the monsters, and my tactics, and no one ever says "nah don't heal me, I'm only bloodied."

Bleeding out is viable but looks like it makes it more to keep track of which i was trying to avoid, also they are less permenant.

More to keep track of? It's ongoing damage. And I don't actually understand what you mean by the latter statement.
By making it half your bloodied value instead of full bloodied value it will make remaining at low hit points too dangerous forcing HP management.

You're arguing for a -10HP cap, how is that any different? And by the way, -10 is extremely easy to reach, PCs are going to die. Ongoing damage will kill many PCs.

The minions eh, random idea because someone was complaining minions died too easy, and i saw them in my game die too easy to just stupid effects. Like hazardous terrain.

Minions don't die too easy- they die exactly as easily as they should. If you are having trouble with the minions dying quickly use ranged minions, spread them out, give them effects upon death, or some such. The mechanics behind minions don't need to change.
#8
Ocule
Dec 28, 2011 15:41:49 Actual playtest results:
I got q group together and tested massive damage threshold and death threshold and it was a great success. Massive damage didn't go off too often worked more in favor of players this was in mid heroic. Even knocking out a player like twice in one adventure they had fun and it wasn't an assured kill. If anything it made.combat go a bit faster and solid hits that broke the threshold felt epic although solos and elites should.be immune to this damage. Elites at the least should get a bonus to rolls and endurance made a bit more sense than a saving thrown moderate dc to your own level.

Death threshold was great at negative half bloodied. It scales with levels this way and stats but it did what it was intended to do. It improved the game for the better. I'll probably play more with these rules but in all, negative half bloodied for a pc death works great and massive damage actually made things go by a bit quicker. After we started both I and my players definitely agreed on the rules being great as alternates to existing rules.
#9
nelphine
Dec 30, 2011 6:05:48 Ocule, could you playtest them with optimized characters? (mostly the massive damage one - I think dying at negative your healing surge would be fine, and I would actually let it be based on healing surge, not bloodied, so people who want to optimize their surge in order to last longer when unconscious would have that option)

Specifically, I'm thinking of a charger character. Say a thief, who, in heroic, is averaging 50+ damage per charge. Or an avenger crit-fisher in epic who averages 200+ damage on a crit with a melee basic attack, and crits 40% of the time. These are the kinds of character that would break the massive damage threshold house rule, since they would probably trigger it every turn.

And once these kinds of characters are noticed, then all the leaders will start buffing them (like Commander's Strike) since these characters can now one shot monsters; and anything that increases their damage increases their chance of one shotting monsters.

So why bother with a defender if I can play a charger character who does so much damage on a hit that I kill a monster every round? And if I'm buffed by a leader, then I kill a monster with just my basic attack (allowing the leader to 'hit' with me and kill a monster on every one of his turns too).

However, if your party is not optimized, and you have an unspoken agreement with the party that they AREN'T going to optimize to these levels, then yes, massive damage will probably be a good thing.

#10
Ocule
Dec 30, 2011 11:33:22 The players weren't too optimized. Most were simply well built but yeah that's an issue I was thinking. Was hoping for a little more testing but yeah if someone triggered that every round in players favor then it wouldn't contribute to the game. I normally don't play with power takers might make another test game to see how it would work with those builds.
#11
Ocule
Dec 30, 2011 13:14:41 Sorry double post if you are bloodying a monster with a basic attack you arw killing everything in two shots anyways so it would bot matter much. You usually need at least an encounter, a critical or a daily
#12
Litmus
Dec 30, 2011 13:47:43 I've been playing with a minion damage threshold house rule for the past ~year and it works well. Here's how it works if you're interested (this is a modified variant of another DM's rule):

1. To kill a minion outright, you need to do damage equal to 5 + 1/2 their level. Cannot kill outright on a miss even if it exceeds this damage threshold.
2. If a minion takes damage that doesn't kill it outright, it is bloodied (even if it's miss damage or just 1hp of damage). An already bloodied minion dies if it takes any damage.

The damage threshold is low enough to ensure that the vast majority of attacks kill minions outright, but adds a little extra 'realism' IMO.
#13
mhbjarkistef
Jan 04, 2012 21:01:45 I've just realized that I've used some of these rules just by feel. For example the damage threshold one.
Bumping now, will talk to this about my group an we'll see what we use. :D
#14
Ocule
Jan 06, 2012 19:52:51 let me know how that goes. I would love some feedback if you test out those rules

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Ocule Dec 21, 2011 21:31:19	My original blog post: community.wizards.com/ocule/blog/2011/12... These are some houserules i thought might improve the game for people who want a more dangerous game. And they are pretty much ported over from older editions thought i should give them credit. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For some reason lately there has been a huge thing about making the game more difficult. At least this is the case on the VT because of said optimizers so i decided to compile a list of houserules that might be used to tweak the system to make even vanilla adventures a tad more dangerous. Using a few of these rules can increase the challenge rating of the game without the need for too much tougher monsters or over elaborate death-trap style dungeons and could work in even a regular game assuming players are cool with it. Anyways i am going to post each rule with a few variations under each on how the rules can be adjusted. I am aiming for a few things here, the first being simplicity. I dont want to over complicate the game with elaborate rules so they are something easily memorized. Second they should make the existing game more challenging and last they should actually speed up the game instead of bog it down. -FUMBLE: Whenever you make an attack roll of natural 1, your turn immediately ends, and you grant combat advantage to all attackers until the start of your next turn. If the roll is part of a close or area attack, resolve all the other attack rolls before ending your turn. (DMG 189) -CRITICAL SUCCESS AND FAILURE: On a skill or ability check, a roll of natural 20 is a critical success and a roll of natural 1 is a critical failure. On a critical success, the check automatically succeeds, and you gain a +5 bonus to checks with that skill until the end of your next turn. In a skill challenge, add one extra victory to the tally. On a critical failure, the check automatically fails, and you take a –5 penalty to checks with that skill until the end of your next turn. In a skill challenge, add one extra defeat to the tally. (DMG 189) NOTE: I usually default all my games to the two rules above. -Massive Damage Threshold: When a creature takes damage equal to or greater than its bloodied value from a single attack it must make a saving throw with a bonus equal to his/her Con modifier. If the saving throw fails it is immediately reduced to 0 hit points. Variations: 1) The damage threshold doesnt have to be bloodied, you can assign any reasonable amount of damage to constitute a 1 hit KO. These thresholds can be 25 to 50 damage and get similar results 2) Instead of a saving throw one can call for an endurance check since its 1/2 level + con mod +training to succeed. In that case make it equal to a medium or hard DC for the level of the creature that dealt the blow. NOTE: This will likely be dangerous to use for characters. Standard creatures usually cannot deal bloodied value damage on a critical hit, however elite monsters and solo monsters will be able to deal this sort of damage to some players, most should be able to on a critical encounter power. It will speed up combat however due to more creatures dying quicker since PCs can deal that sort of damage to a monster much more frequently. At level 1 with a PC of 28 HP, an attack will need to deal 14 or more damage to based on the original variation. Death threshold: A creature dies when it reaches -10 or fewer hit points. Variations: This can be adjusted to a fixed number below 0 that it will take to die. Also using a player's surge value instead of bloodied value is a viable option. So they die at negative surge instead of negative bloodied. NOTE: This here will be extremely perilous to impose on players. It seems it has become common for at least 1 pc in every major battle to fall unconcious due to damage and be miraculously revived. This will make the thread of 0 hit points much more real and more avoided than oh ill just get healed. However this also means players will die more frequently due to damage than failed saving throws. TOUGHER MINIONS: The Minion can be targeted by melee or ranged attacks, although it lacks hit points. If a single melee or ranged attack deals damage to the minion equal to 10 + one-half its level or higher, the minion dies. Otherwise, the minion is unaffected by the attack. Also giving it a 1d4+ Its current damage value. At level 1 it would be 1d4+5 would also do the trick wouldnt be a bad idea. NOTE: This last rule may increase encounter durations but it would negate those spells that do stupid low amounts of damage to kill a minion. Like the 2 damage area from Orbmasters incendiary detonations from the zone itself. Any direct hit should be enough to kill the minion but i was using the spirit companion rules for their HP. This requires a certain amount of damage in order for them to be killed so they arent killed using what people now refer to as "minion poppers" howeevr i would no longer consider them minion kills for the purposes of power effects
#2 pluisjen Dec 22, 2011 2:54:35	I'll give the potential pitfalls of your rules... Fumble: Multi-attackers will get the shaft. Anyone who drops an attack on 5+ creatures should probably have all his other actions spent because odds are good he won't get more. People who make multiple attacks in rapid succession are really screwed because if you miss your first Twin Strike shot, you aren't getting the second. Crit success/fail: Giving two failures could make skill challenges really hard. You can only get 3 failures anyway, and since the DCs aren't very high, there's probably a 20% chance of a failure and a 5% chance of two failures. That's substantial. It'd make skill check rerolls very important if you want to pass a skill challenge, but those are really hard to get. Crit success on the other hand probably won't be all that major. They're expected to pass most checks anyway (it's why you need so many more successes then failures) Massive damage: Optimised Strikers will love this. They can and will break the treshold fairly easily. Anyone who isn't a Striker on the other hand, won't be able to use it. Since massive damage bypasses remaining HP, anything except big Striker hits and accuracy/damage boosts for said Strikers become practically irrelevant. Mark Punishment? Who cares; the monster will probably die by failing a save, not by HP damage. It'll probably make the one Role that doesn't need it shine even more. Death treshold: At -10 on higher levels, most characters will probably not "go down", they'll just die outright. This was a major issue in 3.5 as well. Using surge value can help to make going down far more dangerous, but -10 is probably just going to make going down instant death. This is especially dangerous for characters who like being bloodied because it's suddenly become a major risk. Tougher minions: With a damage requirement of 10+half level you've basically removed the Controller role from the game. You do realise that a Wizard can't deal that kind of damage in a burst, yes? Their best at-will comes in at 1d6+5, which means that he needs to hit and max out his damage roll in order to kill a level 1 minion, and that's assuming he put a 20 in Int. If you're going this route, you should stick to something like 5+quarter level. That'll deal with all the "minion killer" powers without making the controller's bursts useless. Though, honestly, if you really want Minions to be deadly you should learn how to use them more effectively. Because even with those powers, they can be extremely potent already.
#3 Reg06 Dec 22, 2011 10:06:21	Fumble- All fumble rules are bad. An automatic miss on a 1 is bad enough. Fumble rules do nothing but punish players for choosing the wrong class. Massive Damage Threshold- Strikers are the only role that matters. And seriously, isn't taking half your HP in damage bad enough? Strikers now do double damage on their novas. Death Threshold- Many, many character builds are based on being bloodied. Many powers activate upon hitting zero (indeed, the minotaur's racial power is based on hitting zero). Again, you're just punishing players who choose the wrong build, and those with low HP. If you want 0 to be more of a threat, consider this (which I've been in a game that used); Bleeding Out - When a creature is at 0 hp or below it loses 2 hitpoints (4 at Paragon, 6 at Epic. Increase those amounts if you feel necessary) at the beginning of each turn. Each time a creature fails a death saving throw it takes damage equal to half its healing surge. This makes being unconcious a real threat, and not something you want to toy around with. But it doesn't make being unconcious equal death. Tougher Minions- How about using better tactics and better minions? If you want a tougher game, use better monsters, and run them intelligently. Save Versus Death has plenty of good, deadly monsters, as does the Monster Vault and Nentir Vale. I have no trouble threatening my players, even with at level encounters (heck, I almost got a TPK with a below level encounter using umodified monsters from Nentir Vale). I killed an Avenger in our first session with minions because no PC could get to the unconcious PC after the minions knocked it down. One house rule I have considered adding to increase the threat is to add 1/2 level to the DC of heal checks, which would make HP management way more important for parties with low heal leaders.
#4 Ocule Dec 22, 2011 13:29:16	I kind of like the add 1/2 level to the DC of heal checks. But as for the death threshold i like that rule alot going to run some test adventures to playtest these new rules. Only one that makes me uneasy is the massive damage idea i dont know how that one played out in 3.5. The goal of these rules was to make bouncing around low hp or repeatedly falling unconcious as a stupid idea. I think the idea of a class that thrives on being bloodied, is stupid period. I like the bonuses for below bloodied but it should still be dangerous. Also ive played many games with almost no player deaths yet someone gets KOd every fight which is also ridiculous. So with these rules i was hoping to make the game a little tougher without it killing someone every session like Save versus Death (4core) dungeons will do. It would make defensive feats and powers more desirable as well as combat alternatives. Bleeding out is viable but looks like it makes it more to keep track of which i was trying to avoid, also they are less permenant. By making it half your bloodied value instead of full bloodied value it will make remaining at low hit points too dangerous forcing HP management. The massive damage threshold would probably spare solos and elites considering say on a +5 saving throw bonus on a solo, plus their con mod is a guarenteed save or just make them immune. The minions eh, random idea because someone was complaining minions died too easy, and i saw them in my game die too easy to just stupid effects. Like hazardous terrain.
#5 slobo777a Dec 22, 2011 14:57:52	The minions eh, random idea because someone was complaining minions died too easy, and i saw them in my game die too easy to just stupid effects. Like hazardous terrain. They are meant to die of course. But there's usually a fix for terrain - just make them immune or partally affected (slowed perhaps) to the terrain in the planned battle. Best if it makes thematic sense of course, e.g. fire sprites that hang around the lava pits ought to have resist 10 Fire or better . . .
#6 stargazer_dragon Dec 25, 2011 12:10:53	I always assigned my minonions a damage threshhold of there lvl which ment most player attacks killed them outright but some secondary effects didn't, more or less though minions r suposed to die, simply spread them out so AOe don't pop them down like mad and they live up to a standard ruff 4 hit to kill and deal easaly the damage that a standard would do, group minions and beg for them to fall to fast
#7 Reg06 Dec 25, 2011 12:58:29	Only one that makes me uneasy is the massive damage idea i dont know how that one played out in 3.5. The damage threshold is a bad idea. A Wizard starts with 20 to 22 hitpoints. A 1st level Brute will activate the massive damage threshold with a single non-critical hit. The goal of these rules was to make bouncing around low hp or repeatedly falling unconcious as a stupid idea. I think the idea of a class that thrives on being bloodied, is stupid period. I like the bonuses for below bloodied but it should still be dangerous. Also ive played many games with almost no player deaths yet someone gets KOd every fight which is also ridiculous. What about Rocky Balboa, John McClane, Gears of War, or Boromir? Just to name a few. Suffering tremendous punishment, but continuing on is a common trope. So with these rules i was hoping to make the game a little tougher without it killing someone every session like Save versus Death (4core) dungeons will do. The game can be made tougher without messing with the mechanics at all. Just use better monsters and tactics. My home game is pretty harsh because of the monsters, and my tactics, and no one ever says "nah don't heal me, I'm only bloodied." Bleeding out is viable but looks like it makes it more to keep track of which i was trying to avoid, also they are less permenant. More to keep track of? It's ongoing damage. And I don't actually understand what you mean by the latter statement. By making it half your bloodied value instead of full bloodied value it will make remaining at low hit points too dangerous forcing HP management. You're arguing for a -10HP cap, how is that any different? And by the way, -10 is extremely easy to reach, PCs are going to die. Ongoing damage will kill many PCs. The minions eh, random idea because someone was complaining minions died too easy, and i saw them in my game die too easy to just stupid effects. Like hazardous terrain. Minions don't die too easy- they die exactly as easily as they should. If you are having trouble with the minions dying quickly use ranged minions, spread them out, give them effects upon death, or some such. The mechanics behind minions don't need to change.
#8 Ocule Dec 28, 2011 15:41:49	Actual playtest results: I got q group together and tested massive damage threshold and death threshold and it was a great success. Massive damage didn't go off too often worked more in favor of players this was in mid heroic. Even knocking out a player like twice in one adventure they had fun and it wasn't an assured kill. If anything it made.combat go a bit faster and solid hits that broke the threshold felt epic although solos and elites should.be immune to this damage. Elites at the least should get a bonus to rolls and endurance made a bit more sense than a saving thrown moderate dc to your own level. Death threshold was great at negative half bloodied. It scales with levels this way and stats but it did what it was intended to do. It improved the game for the better. I'll probably play more with these rules but in all, negative half bloodied for a pc death works great and massive damage actually made things go by a bit quicker. After we started both I and my players definitely agreed on the rules being great as alternates to existing rules.
#9 nelphine Dec 30, 2011 6:05:48	Ocule, could you playtest them with optimized characters? (mostly the massive damage one - I think dying at negative your healing surge would be fine, and I would actually let it be based on healing surge, not bloodied, so people who want to optimize their surge in order to last longer when unconscious would have that option) Specifically, I'm thinking of a charger character. Say a thief, who, in heroic, is averaging 50+ damage per charge. Or an avenger crit-fisher in epic who averages 200+ damage on a crit with a melee basic attack, and crits 40% of the time. These are the kinds of character that would break the massive damage threshold house rule, since they would probably trigger it every turn. And once these kinds of characters are noticed, then all the leaders will start buffing them (like Commander's Strike) since these characters can now one shot monsters; and anything that increases their damage increases their chance of one shotting monsters. So why bother with a defender if I can play a charger character who does so much damage on a hit that I kill a monster every round? And if I'm buffed by a leader, then I kill a monster with just my basic attack (allowing the leader to 'hit' with me and kill a monster on every one of his turns too). However, if your party is not optimized, and you have an unspoken agreement with the party that they AREN'T going to optimize to these levels, then yes, massive damage will probably be a good thing.
#10 Ocule Dec 30, 2011 11:33:22	The players weren't too optimized. Most were simply well built but yeah that's an issue I was thinking. Was hoping for a little more testing but yeah if someone triggered that every round in players favor then it wouldn't contribute to the game. I normally don't play with power takers might make another test game to see how it would work with those builds.
#11 Ocule Dec 30, 2011 13:14:41	Sorry double post if you are bloodying a monster with a basic attack you arw killing everything in two shots anyways so it would bot matter much. You usually need at least an encounter, a critical or a daily
#12 Litmus Dec 30, 2011 13:47:43	I've been playing with a minion damage threshold house rule for the past ~year and it works well. Here's how it works if you're interested (this is a modified variant of another DM's rule): 1. To kill a minion outright, you need to do damage equal to 5 + 1/2 their level. Cannot kill outright on a miss even if it exceeds this damage threshold. 2. If a minion takes damage that doesn't kill it outright, it is bloodied (even if it's miss damage or just 1hp of damage). An already bloodied minion dies if it takes any damage. The damage threshold is low enough to ensure that the vast majority of attacks kill minions outright, but adds a little extra 'realism' IMO.
#13 mhbjarkistef Jan 04, 2012 21:01:45	I've just realized that I've used some of these rules just by feel. For example the damage threshold one. Bumping now, will talk to this about my group an we'll see what we use. :D
#14 Ocule Jan 06, 2012 19:52:51	let me know how that goes. I would love some feedback if you test out those rules