Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 formosus Oct 19, 2009 13:02:45	Hello everyone. I'm in the process of converting a homebrew campaign world of mine from 3.Xe to 4e, however, I've run into a bit of a snag. This world was inspired by the Deities & Demigods idea of a dualistic religion. One of the two gods in the world is the god of civilization (amongst othe things); his priests are very intellectual and are not involved in the more martial aspects of the Cleric class as defined in the PHB. This was easy enough to solve in 3.X, as I simply said his priests either were either Cloistered Clerics (a variant cleric from Unearthed Arcana) or Archivists (from Heroes of Horror). However, such classes are not extant in 4e and I'm not really sure how to replace them. I'm reticent to say "Oh, by the way, your Cleric or Invoker of Xenocoeur (that's the god) can only wear cloth armor," since I'm not sure how much of an effect that would have on game balance. Any suggestions?
#2 AbdulAlhazred Oct 19, 2009 13:18:03	Its kind of part and parcel of the oft-noted "you can't make a non-attacking character in 4e" thing. I guess its a bit deeper than that, but 4e just wasn't designed with the concept in mind of making non-combat type PCs. There IS a pacifist cleric build and a pretty good suite of powers that let you do things without making attacks in Divine Power, but that doesn't solve problems like "you can't wear armor". Of course technically a character can get a pretty good armor class in cloth armor, but it requires jacking either dex or int, which are virtually dump stats for most clerics and certainly dump stats for one that won't ever attack. I mean you CAN get a pretty good score in one or the other, but not enough to compensate for wearing only cloth. Of course maybe you could allow them to wear hide, which helps a bit and now that there is a Hide Specialization feat coming out in Primal Power that might about do the trick there. The other alternative might be to have these priests be Invokers instead of clerics. That will work if they're allowed to use magic to attack with since there's no real major reason for an invoker to use a melee weapon and they don't normally wear heavy armor. Now, all of this is assuming we're talking about PCs. If you're strictly dealing with NPCs, don't bother to build them using the PC class rules. Simply create stat blocks for them that do what you want. 4e isn't designed to represent NPCs using standard classes really. It can, but its overly complex and doesn't really buy you anything. Instead just make them "monsters" and give them whatever stats and powers make sense to describe what you need.
#3 formosus Oct 19, 2009 13:38:05	Thanks for the response. While I'm not going to tell the PCs where to put their stats, a priest of Xenocoeur with lower than average intelligence would be very rare. As for being Invokers, I actually have as written that about 60% of his priests are invokers (with some of the flavor changed, as being a direct incarnation of divine will does not work very well for my campaign world) since he's not much of a god of healing. However, Invokers can still wear chainmail. I guess it comes down to- would it be imbalancing to say that they can't wear anything more than cloth or light armor, or should I just flub it and have them wear whatever armor they want, while pretending that they're wearing fancy robes.
#4 Shiftkitty Oct 19, 2009 14:56:47	One might say that being cloistered or focusing more on mental pursuits doesn't mean that they are naive in the ways of the more dangerous aspects of the world. Perhaps as part of their loftier training they also receive a basic education in the fundaments of defending themselves. IN FR, In Menzoberranzan, the drow get their schooling from three academies; Arach-Tinilith (sp?) for clerics, Melee Magthere for warriors, and Sorcere for mages. They attend most of their time at whichever school will be their main profession, but they spend 6 months each at each othe other schools to round things out. In War of the Spider Queen, even Archmage Gromph Baenre must make use of his old training at Melee Magthere to dispatch a demon.
#5 formosus Oct 19, 2009 18:56:16	While a good idea, I'm not sure if that would work very well with the setting as it is. Right now, in order to become a divine spellcaster in this setting, one must undergo a sacrament that has two divisions. The superior divison grants access to full divine spellcasting classes (ex. cleric and archivist) while the lower division grants access to partial divine spellcasting classes (ex. paladin). Typically, partial divine spellcasting classes have a more martial bent. So, it's not simply that the priests would not have such training to begin with (which they wouldn't), but would tend to consider undergoing such training as an insult to their station. Wading into melee with a sword or axe is for lesser clergy. Now, I know the distinction between full and partial spellcasting is gone in 4e, but I think it's pretty clear what classes belong on what side of that division. That having been said, I might just ask my PC cleric to help me test this by having his character ware only cloth armor. If he's horribly overmatched, I'll just flub it and let him wear more armor.
#6 Shiftkitty Oct 19, 2009 20:16:33	It certainly sounds like some interesting roleplaying flavor. If I was at your table I'd give it a whirl. Let us know how it goes. I've thought about starting a campaign where everyone starts off as typical citizens with no equipment but perhaps an aptitude towards certain classes. I'm just hesitant about starting everyone off with no armor or weapons (save simple things, like a knife, a club, or something improvised).
#7 pluisjen Oct 20, 2009 2:42:12	How about dropping all armor profiency for these guys, and letting them use Wis for AC? That should put them at least in the 'decent' range.
#8 dulsi Oct 20, 2009 9:26:34	There is a replacement turn undead suggested for an archivist.  Doesn't really fix the fact that the priest is still combat oriented.  For the dragonborn in my campaign, they are similar to native americans.  One of the players wanted to play a fundamentalist who eschewed the metal items from the newcommers.  I suggested perhaps a ritual which costs the same as heavy armor and provides the same bonuses/penalties.  He ended up going with armor made from turtle shells.
#9 rampant Oct 20, 2009 15:34:20	Well the avenger is a melee class with cloth armor, they get a +3 ac bonus.   Maybe you could try restricting their armor profs in exchange for a flat ac bonus provided by the divine investments.
#10 formosus Oct 21, 2009 12:50:03	I thibk I like the idea of restricting them to cloth armor, then giving them an AC bonus derived from wisdom. Thanks for the input, everyone.
#11 Chimerasame Oct 22, 2009 0:17:48	If you want to be ambitious, you could try to write up a new build for clerics which is wis/int-based, lacks armor prof greater than cloth (in this case the int would make up the AC somewhat), and has a power or two per level that keys off int or has some bonus for your particular build. Hmm. I wonder what sort of ability it could get in exchange for the loss of all the armor? It'd be neat if it were something that functioned only in cloth, to prevent the "hey lets take leather, it's so obvious!!" issue that seems to apply to every other cloth class except perhaps Monk. Maybe a slight boost to AC to make up for its lowness, plus a boost to the other NADs as well... something is still lacking, though. "While the Academic Cleric is wearing cloth or no armor, he gets +1 to all defenses and ... ?" It'd be good if it were something fairly leader-y...
#12 Einlanzer Oct 25, 2009 3:53:23	I've never been a huge fan of the way D&D pretty much forces clerics to wear armor (fitting the 'crusader' archetype), because honestly it's less common for members of any clergy to wear armor than it is for them to wear robes.  I've always preferred the flavor of a scholastic priest over a fighter priest.  I considered just making Invokers and Clerics have no armor profs and deriving their AC from Wisdom instead of Dex or Int, but it always seemed hamfisted and uninteresting.   I finally decided on something that I wanted to try.  They would use their Intelligence/Dex as any class would, and gain a new class feature that gave them 1/2 of their Wisdom bonus when only wearing cloth.  Only change it would make is that particularly smart/quick clerics/invokers would have decent AC only wearing cloth, while dumb/clumsy ones would still rely on armor.  I considered removing their armor proficiencies and only giving them the class feature, but i can't really decide whether or not that's a good idea.
#13 mediumd Oct 29, 2009 18:04:26	I use +Wis to AC in place of Int or Dex. This gives a standard lazer cleric a +4 AC bonus in cloth. The flavor here is that the cleric is protected from harm as long as he believes he is protected. If he straps on armor, he's really not trusting in his faith. I stopped mucking about with Dex, Int, or flat AC bonuses to model the cloth caster priest when I noticed various classes in the PHB2 already have various +Ability to AC class features anyway. To avoid the Leathermage effect, I wrote up an "Inner Fire" feat that gives a +2 AC bonus (and "Mage Armor" for wizards).
#14 rampant Oct 29, 2009 21:03:41	Um no they dont. In the Phb 2 the avenger gets a flat +3 ac as long as he's wearing light enough armor (more with a feat), barbarians have a scaling ability that gives them the same by level 21 but includes reflex, the warden has the ability to use con or wis in place of Int or dex, not as a bonus.
#15 Neutronium_Dragon Oct 31, 2009 2:59:20	> because honestly it's less common for members of any clergy > to wear armor than it is for them to wear robes. Because members of the clergy are more commonly in the church than on the front line of the battlefield. If they *are* on the front line of the battlefield, and especially if they're there habitually, they're a lot more likely to wear armor if it's available. The PHB cleric probably wears robes too - when he's officiating at mass or some other ceremonial function.
#16 Chimerasame Nov 01, 2009 10:51:58	the warden has the ability to use con or wis in place of Int or dex, not as a bonus. pretty sure that is exactly what he was talking about. also, guardian druids.
#17 rampant Nov 01, 2009 14:21:46	Suggestion: For every armor proficiency you take off give them a +1 bonus to ac, so if you redux a cleric to cloth only he gets a +3 (leather, hide, and chainmail), then allow them to use wis for AC instead of Dex/int.
#18 Einlanzer Nov 02, 2009 22:00:21	> because honestly it's less common for members of any clergy > to wear armor than it is for them to wear robes. Because members of the clergy are more commonly in the church than on the front line of the battlefield. If they *are* on the front line of the battlefield, and especially if they're there habitually, they're a lot more likely to wear armor if it's available. The PHB cleric probably wears robes too - when he's officiating at mass or some other ceremonial function. I really wouldn't think so, honestly.  The clerics you play as aren't on a battlefield anyway, they're adventuring/missionary types.  There's no more or less reason for them to wear armor than there is for wizards to.