Action pionts - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Action pionts

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
thundertrax
Jun 11, 2011 17:08:57 We are exploring expanding the ways to spend action points in game. I think these will not be too overpowered but help the chars along, and feel as if action points matter a bit more in our games thanks for your imput.

Changing action point use to once/round

Action Points

-Gain 1 standard action (as normal)

-Gain +2 to any attack (will not stack) One attack

-Gain +2 AC (Will not stack) Agianst One attack

-Gain +5 to a noncombat skill check (Will not Stack) One check only

-Grant 1 additional healing surge (once/day)

-Grant 1 additional save vs. effect (once/round)
#2
Crimson_Concerto
Jun 11, 2011 17:32:34 Are you also changing the rule that you can only use one action point per encounter? Because if not, then half of these parenthesis are unnecessary because they wouldn't have the opportunity to ever stack to begin with. You should probably also specify how long some of them last (AC bonus?), when they can be applied (Attack, AC, and Skill bonuses?), and what sort of action this is to use (Extra Save?).
#3
thundertrax
Jun 11, 2011 17:35:55
Are you also changing the rule that you can only use one action point per encounter? Because if not, then half of these parenthesis are unnecessary because they wouldn't have the opportunity to ever stack to begin with. You should probably also specify how long some of them last (AC bonus?), when they can be applied (Attack, AC, and Skill bonuses?), and what sort of action this is to use (Extra Save?).

So planning on, save- being a minor action and all other effects will only last agianst the next attack wether agianst thier ac or yours; and yes, I would allow one action point per round I think.
#4
Eisenritter
Jun 11, 2011 17:42:23
Are you also changing the rule that you can only use one action point per encounter? Because if not, then half of these parenthesis are unnecessary because they wouldn't have the opportunity to ever stack to begin with. You should probably also specify how long some of them last (AC bonus?), when they can be applied (Attack, AC, and Skill bonuses?), and what sort of action this is to use (Extra Save?).

So planning on save being a minor action and all effects will only last agianst the next attack wither agianst thier ac or yours. and yes would allow one action point per round I think

Then you'll have to remove the "take an extra standard action" option, because nobody will ever use any of the other ones if they can do that instead. You'll also want to redo how action points are acquired.
#5
Crimson_Concerto
Jun 11, 2011 17:47:04 If the Attack, AC, and Skill bonuses can only be applied before their relevant action, then I don't see those options getting very much use at all. I would probably use some of them if I could apply them as though they were free action triggered by the relevant event, but otherwise, I see no point in wasting them like that when I could get an additional action instead.

The reason that action points can only be used once per encounter by default is so that they can't be saved up for a massive nova in a later encounter. I think that changing this is a very bad idea. I know that I would pretty much always save all of my action points for the last encounter of the day if I could.

Also, I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but complete sentences and proper capitalization, punctuation, etc. really do go a long way towards making your posts readable.
#6
thundertrax
Jun 11, 2011 18:28:48 Duly noted on the idea of giving out action points. I appreciate the feedback, I am mainly considering this due to the fact that my group trades off campaigns every month and the other DM uses this kind of system. While I personally agree as a player that I would choose a standard action; figured it would not hurt to research possibilities. I was very surprised as a player that people tended to actually choose his alternate means of action points, whereas in my campaign people tend to sit on them or not use them at all.

Also I will actually thank you for the grammer tip, it is all too easy for me to get in a rush and my post reflects that. So i will keep that in mind in the future. Thanks for the opinions guys.

Also in reply to Crimson, my DM is using them as an immediate reaction when a +2 could make you hit or make the enemy miss respectively. I am just tossing around the concept.
#7
Crimson_Concerto
Jun 11, 2011 18:39:32 That would be an interrupt then, not a reaction. Reactions get used after the event that triggered them gets totally revolved. Interrupts (and free actions) are what can alter the results of their triggering events.
#8
otakutaylor
Jun 12, 2011 6:08:52 I've been considering what else action points can do lately too, since just getting the extra attack/time to use second wind is nice but not always needed, and definitely not fun when you blow your action point and miss with the attack when you'd rather have just hit. However, The other uses have to be equal to the worth of that extra attack, at least as if you had another chance to throw an at-will or heal a surge.

A +2 to attack isn't really enough, Heck I'd even considered making an action point a +10 to an attack instead of it's normal effect so that instead of "I whiffed with my encounter, but I can try an at-will at least" You'll get to almost guaranteeing hit with your encounter, unless you rolled a 2 and you know it's that unlikely. Turning the action point into a surge isn't worth it, since you already can. Action point, second wind, healing surge.

Granted most games take place within heroic, when you hit paragon a lot of characters get new/fancy uses of action points as opposed to their normal uses. It may just be a matter of time before the game wants to get that complicated.

If you want the smaller effects, but more often, look up d20 moderns action points, you had 5 or so at level 1, and each one you spend would give you I think a +1d6 to any d20 roll you made, and you could take feats or class talents to get more uses out of them. However, using both the systems in tandem would be rather crazy and I think 4e has enough things riders, triggers, and other effects to remember in a single turn.

Action points for defensive actions are certainly an idea, but it's not... well... actiony. Most uses of an action point, even from paragon paths, are designed to be a new/fancy/special attack move. Otherwise if it was defensive I imagine almost everyone would be holding on to them as secondary defenses instead of using them offensively.

That extra attack is just too tasty, I've avoided using an action point for an extra move to get into attack range just so I could use it later for an actual attack. Missing out on that action point in a whole in trade for an action that couldn't equally risk devastating the enemy just isn't as much fun.

As an idea for getting both systems together, though it does as extra complications to the game, What if an action point as we know it is actually made up of 4 parts?

Starting with 4 action pieces at the beginning of the day your first combat you would have the ability to spend 4 of them to gain a standard action as normal, Or at any one time you could spend 1 to gain a +2 to a d20 roll, attack, save or skill. And perhaps you could also spend 2 to add a +2 to your defenses, narrowly dodging a close hit when it is extremely necessary. At the end of a combat, you would gain 2 action pieces. Adding up to the same Action point system the game has now, BUT giving you chances to make use of them exactly how you need. Such a system would mean you could easily find more and more uses for the action points, and still get it's original use. But the racial encounter powers tend to mimic much of these uses. (heroic effort would do essentially the same as spending 2 points on modifying a d20 roll by +4)

Just a few ideas. ^_^
#9
thundertrax
Jun 12, 2011 16:44:52 Good food for thought OtakuTaylor, thanks I appreciate the in depth response.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 thundertrax Jun 11, 2011 17:08:57	We are exploring expanding the ways to spend action points in game. I think these will not be too overpowered but help the chars along, and feel as if action points matter a bit more in our games thanks for your imput. Changing action point use to once/round Action Points -Gain 1 standard action (as normal) -Gain +2 to any attack (will not stack) One attack -Gain +2 AC (Will not stack) Agianst One attack -Gain +5 to a noncombat skill check (Will not Stack) One check only -Grant 1 additional healing surge (once/day) -Grant 1 additional save vs. effect (once/round)
#2 Crimson_Concerto Jun 11, 2011 17:32:34	Are you also changing the rule that you can only use one action point per encounter? Because if not, then half of these parenthesis are unnecessary because they wouldn't have the opportunity to ever stack to begin with. You should probably also specify how long some of them last (AC bonus?), when they can be applied (Attack, AC, and Skill bonuses?), and what sort of action this is to use (Extra Save?).
#3 thundertrax Jun 11, 2011 17:35:55	Are you also changing the rule that you can only use one action point per encounter? Because if not, then half of these parenthesis are unnecessary because they wouldn't have the opportunity to ever stack to begin with. You should probably also specify how long some of them last (AC bonus?), when they can be applied (Attack, AC, and Skill bonuses?), and what sort of action this is to use (Extra Save?). So planning on, save- being a minor action and all other effects will only last agianst the next attack wether agianst thier ac or yours; and yes, I would allow one action point per round I think.
#4 Eisenritter Jun 11, 2011 17:42:23	Are you also changing the rule that you can only use one action point per encounter? Because if not, then half of these parenthesis are unnecessary because they wouldn't have the opportunity to ever stack to begin with. You should probably also specify how long some of them last (AC bonus?), when they can be applied (Attack, AC, and Skill bonuses?), and what sort of action this is to use (Extra Save?). So planning on save being a minor action and all effects will only last agianst the next attack wither agianst thier ac or yours. and yes would allow one action point per round I think Then you'll have to remove the "take an extra standard action" option, because nobody will ever use any of the other ones if they can do that instead. You'll also want to redo how action points are acquired.
#5 Crimson_Concerto Jun 11, 2011 17:47:04	If the Attack, AC, and Skill bonuses can only be applied before their relevant action, then I don't see those options getting very much use at all. I would probably use some of them if I could apply them as though they were free action triggered by the relevant event, but otherwise, I see no point in wasting them like that when I could get an additional action instead. The reason that action points can only be used once per encounter by default is so that they can't be saved up for a massive nova in a later encounter. I think that changing this is a very bad idea. I know that I would pretty much always save all of my action points for the last encounter of the day if I could. Also, I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but complete sentences and proper capitalization, punctuation, etc. really do go a long way towards making your posts readable.
#6 thundertrax Jun 11, 2011 18:28:48	Duly noted on the idea of giving out action points. I appreciate the feedback, I am mainly considering this due to the fact that my group trades off campaigns every month and the other DM uses this kind of system. While I personally agree as a player that I would choose a standard action; figured it would not hurt to research possibilities. I was very surprised as a player that people tended to actually choose his alternate means of action points, whereas in my campaign people tend to sit on them or not use them at all. Also I will actually thank you for the grammer tip, it is all too easy for me to get in a rush and my post reflects that. So i will keep that in mind in the future. Thanks for the opinions guys. Also in reply to Crimson, my DM is using them as an immediate reaction when a +2 could make you hit or make the enemy miss respectively. I am just tossing around the concept.
#7 Crimson_Concerto Jun 11, 2011 18:39:32	That would be an interrupt then, not a reaction. Reactions get used after the event that triggered them gets totally revolved. Interrupts (and free actions) are what can alter the results of their triggering events.
#8 otakutaylor Jun 12, 2011 6:08:52	I've been considering what else action points can do lately too, since just getting the extra attack/time to use second wind is nice but not always needed, and definitely not fun when you blow your action point and miss with the attack when you'd rather have just hit. However, The other uses have to be equal to the worth of that extra attack, at least as if you had another chance to throw an at-will or heal a surge. A +2 to attack isn't really enough, Heck I'd even considered making an action point a +10 to an attack instead of it's normal effect so that instead of "I whiffed with my encounter, but I can try an at-will at least" You'll get to almost guaranteeing hit with your encounter, unless you rolled a 2 and you know it's that unlikely. Turning the action point into a surge isn't worth it, since you already can. Action point, second wind, healing surge. Granted most games take place within heroic, when you hit paragon a lot of characters get new/fancy uses of action points as opposed to their normal uses. It may just be a matter of time before the game wants to get that complicated. If you want the smaller effects, but more often, look up d20 moderns action points, you had 5 or so at level 1, and each one you spend would give you I think a +1d6 to any d20 roll you made, and you could take feats or class talents to get more uses out of them. However, using both the systems in tandem would be rather crazy and I think 4e has enough things riders, triggers, and other effects to remember in a single turn. Action points for defensive actions are certainly an idea, but it's not... well... actiony. Most uses of an action point, even from paragon paths, are designed to be a new/fancy/special attack move. Otherwise if it was defensive I imagine almost everyone would be holding on to them as secondary defenses instead of using them offensively. That extra attack is just too tasty, I've avoided using an action point for an extra move to get into attack range just so I could use it later for an actual attack. Missing out on that action point in a whole in trade for an action that couldn't equally risk devastating the enemy just isn't as much fun. As an idea for getting both systems together, though it does as extra complications to the game, What if an action point as we know it is actually made up of 4 parts? Starting with 4 action pieces at the beginning of the day your first combat you would have the ability to spend 4 of them to gain a standard action as normal, Or at any one time you could spend 1 to gain a +2 to a d20 roll, attack, save or skill. And perhaps you could also spend 2 to add a +2 to your defenses, narrowly dodging a close hit when it is extremely necessary. At the end of a combat, you would gain 2 action pieces. Adding up to the same Action point system the game has now, BUT giving you chances to make use of them exactly how you need. Such a system would mean you could easily find more and more uses for the action points, and still get it's original use. But the racial encounter powers tend to mimic much of these uses. (heroic effort would do essentially the same as spending 2 points on modifying a d20 roll by +4) Just a few ideas. ^_^
#9 thundertrax Jun 12, 2011 16:44:52	Good food for thought OtakuTaylor, thanks I appreciate the in depth response.