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Action Point Alternate Uses

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
DoomDuck
May 02, 2009 13:59:23 Was doing some pondering along with one of my players re: Action Points. The idea came up on his end about allowing for alternate uses of them, much as some paragon/epics already allow. Thought I'd throw some of the ideas on here and see if there were some glaring problems or the like with the ideas, particular balance issues, etc.

1) Use an Action Point to gain an extra action (just as it is now).
2) Use an Action Point for an Automatic 20 during a Death Save
3a) Use an Action Point during a short rest to regain the use of a Daily power or use an Action Point during Combat to regain an Encounter power
3b) Use an Action Point during Combat to regain the use of any power.
3c) Use an Action Point during Combat to regain the use of an Encounter Power OR an Item Power (as well as during a short rest to regain the use of a Daily power)

Also, as a necessary corollary to the above additions:
a) You may use one Action Point per encounter (just as it is now)
b) You may use one Action Point *per type of usage* per encounter. (So, potentially 3 APs per encounter)

Also, we're aware that some of the above abilities already belong to a Paragon/ Epic class - in which case either the class version would have fewer limitations or additional power would be granted.

Any thoughts on the various ideas would be awesome *grin*.

~DD
#2
bone_naga
May 02, 2009 21:27:51 I would limit APs to 1 per encounter, total. Also, I would not allow using APs to regain dailies (think about a wizard casting sleep every other encounter plus an additional time per day). Other than that, doesnt look like anything that should break the game.
#3
Namagem
May 02, 2009 22:38:23
You may use one Action Point per encounter (just as it is now)

Actually, as it is now, you only have one action point per milestone/extended rest per tier An epic level character has three per day.

I approve with this, though. Being able to burn your action point to stop dying would make it oh, so worth saving that point.
#4
rikiji
May 03, 2009 2:33:23 It really seems to be a fair amount of extra work to implement something like this without stepping on the toes of the paragon paths and epic abilities that already do things like this.

Offhand the natrural 20 on a death saving throw is bad - it discourages people from using action points for other things (and is really, really overpowered - equivalent to a highest tier daily utility). I also dislike the idea of spending action points when not in an encounter - that kind of defeats the flavour of the system altogether.

Selecting a small number of alternate uses might not be a bad option - but they should be weaker than abilities granted by paragon paths or epics and I'd highly suggest requiring a feat expenditure to be able to use them (there are a handful of race specific feats that do this already, and on the whole they work well).

Really, the only option I can see using from your suggestions (aside from the default) would be a variant of 3c - recovering the use of an item power. As a feat, that would work fairly well. The others are either overpowered or infringe too much on paragon paths.
#5
frosty14
May 03, 2009 13:35:23 Maybe not getting a nat. twenty but a modifier of some sort to the die roll, such as maybeee.......+10 bonus more or less
Regain a power sound good. I would have them make a relevent savings throw or suffer a negative modifier until the character rested. This would be to simulate the extreme effort that was put out by the character.
#6
narkaious
May 04, 2009 13:09:51 Take it for what's it's worth but I am play testing an alternate use

Use the action point before any attack rolls, to make a daily Reliable(for that use). All attacks must miss for it not to be expended.

It hasn't been used to many times yet, but it does help with those times when you really need to hit with the daily.
#7
LordOfWeasels
May 04, 2009 13:39:13 Namagem:
Actually, as it is now, you only have one action point per milestone/extended rest per tier

That's not what he's talking about. Right now, you can't use more than one Action Point *per encounter*, no matter how many Action Points you have or why you have them.

DoomDuck:
2) Use an Action Point for an Automatic 20 during a Death Save

Nice! Especially since if you went down while having an Action Point left, that's kinda depressing (why didn't you spend it to Second Wind last turn, hmm?). I like this one, and I don't think it's broken.

3a) Use an Action Point during a short rest to regain the use of a Daily power

Uh, ohgodnoWAYTOOSTRONG.

You've just turned every player's favourite Daily into a "once per encounter for the first three encounters every day, then once per two after that" power. This EXACT usage, incidentally, is why Veteran's Armor got nerfed so quickly after AV was published, and that required
A) armor
B) an Item daily power usage
in addition to the Action Point.

or use an Action Point during Combat to regain an Encounter power

Sounds good. Add a caveat: Can't use the same Encounter power twice in the same round, and I'm happy with this one.

3b) Use an Action Point during Combat to regain the use of any power.

See 3A except now they can pull out the big Daily twice *in one fight* rather than once in each of the first three fights and then once in every two fights thereafter. Action Points recharging Dailies, for all characters, at all levels, every time they've got an Action Point, is way too strong. Archmages, at level *26*, get a Daily power to let them recharge one Daily power.

3c) Use an Action Point during Combat to regain the use of an Encounter Power OR an Item Power

Again, I don't mind Encounters. Item powers tend to be Dailies, though, even if they're not as awesome as Daily Attack Powers, and that makes me leery. I'd be much more inclined to say "Spend an Action Point to *gain the use of an extra Daily Magic Item usage*, as if you'd reached one more Milestone."

(as well as during a short rest to regain the use of a Daily power)

And here we're back to this again. AP recharges Daily is way, way, way too strong.
#8
LordOfWeasels
May 04, 2009 13:44:05 Narkaious:
Use the action point before any attack rolls, to make a daily Reliable(for that use). All attacks must miss for it not to be expended.

Not bad.

I'd do it this way instead: "If your Daily Power misses all targets, you may spend an Action Point immediately. No Miss or Effects are generated from that power, and the Daily Power is not expended."

Basically, you toss your Action Point to get your Daily back after your Daily misses all targets. No Miss Effects, no Zones or Conjurations created, you can use it again the next time you get a Standard Action if you want to.

This way, you're losing a Standard and your Action Point for this Encounter to get a second shot at your Daily. I think that's pretty fair.

Your way, you're losing the Action Point for a *chance* at a second shot, if the first one misses. I can't see many people wanting to do that.
#9
angrygazebo
May 04, 2009 13:57:58 My friends and I play D&D 4th ed and also play Star Wars Saga edition, and one concept I'm considering bringing over is the idea of "Force Points", players have a certain number of force points per level they can use to add 1d6 to any roll.

I think this is a fun concept, and I would perhaps like to have Action Points be usable for a similar effect, though adding 1d6 seems like a not much of a benefit (in SW players have many Force Points per level, whereas Action Points seem harder to come by).

Any thoughts?
#10
bone_naga
May 04, 2009 16:39:37
My friends and I play D&D 4th ed and also play Star Wars Saga edition, and one concept I'm considering bringing over is the idea of "Force Points", players have a certain number of force points per level they can use to add 1d6 to any roll.

I think this is a fun concept, and I would perhaps like to have Action Points be usable for a similar effect, though adding 1d6 seems like a not much of a benefit (in SW players have many Force Points per level, whereas Action Points seem harder to come by).

Any thoughts?

I could still see it being useful for that daily that just must hit. You could even change it into a flat bonus instead of an extra die roll (save time and the player doesnt feel cheated when it only gives him +1). However, then you're stepping into territory already occupied by some of the paragon paths.
#11
LordOfWeasels
May 04, 2009 16:40:56 AngryGazebo: That's a pretty typical kind of "cheat mechanic". D&D4 is just about the only semi-modern game I know of without one - it's a staple of post-1990 game design that players should have a way to say "THIS roll is more important to me, I will sacrifice something to be more likely to succeed."

D&D4 takes a slightly different take on things: It's very, very rare for any one roll to matter in the larger scheme of things. It takes a SERIES of rolls to succeed or fail on anything, and so your "cheat" mechanic is inherent in building a character who is good at something. Because you took that Feat or that Power or bought that Stat, you are consistently better at those types of rolls, and so you succeed more often.

I dont' see anything wrong with adding that cheat mechanic, myself. I'd be tempted, though, to *not* tie it to Action Points. Instead, have a rule like "once per GAME SESSION, reroll the dice and keep the new roll" or "once per game session roll a 1d6 and add it to the results of a D20 you just rolled".
#12
DoomDuck
May 05, 2009 23:25:15 Awesome! Thanks for all the responses.

Here was the thought for most of these: provide the option to spend one resource to gain another, decreasing the "hording" mentality I've run into where Dailies aren't used for fear that they'd be needed more later.

Since first posting these, I've entirely discounted the idea of using the same Daily twice in an encounter. If anything, that would require a limitation of "still just one use of that Daily in an encounter." Also, the "back from the dead" one seems like it might cause MORE hording in an effort to curtail death.

Anyways, consensus here seems to be that regaining a Daily every milestone is way, way too useful. Hmm.

~DD
#13
nowiwantmydmg
May 07, 2009 10:31:34 This is something I've been working on, but haven't play tested yet.

Action Point Uses still only 1/encounter though.

*Default: Gain an extra action this turn of your choice (standard, move or minor)
*Use an encounter power in place of a basic attack
*Turn a hit to your character into a miss (opposed roll must succeed)
*Take an action (1) during someone else's turn (immediate interrupt), if an attack it must be a basic attack
*Guaranteed Natural 20 on your next skill check during combat (I don't allow intimidate to force a foe to surrender, if you do this is too good...and might be anyway, trying to encourage some stunting though)
*Get a +3 bonus to your next saving throw, for death saves a 17-19 is treated as a 20
*Permanently Move to a different position in the initiative order of your choice
*Spend a Healing surge and get half your surge value in Temp HP
*For the duration of the encounter a power of your choice has the "reliable" keyword, ignore all effects on a miss.
*Mimic a daily/encounter/utility power from your class that you do not actually possess (-3 to damage, -1 to hit) it uses one of your "equipped" ones of the same or higher level.

I'm not worried about stepping on the toes of powers a little bit, class features and paragon features were the big concern, to that effect the last one might be too close to the wizard's tome implement, not sure if the penalty is enough to balance that off or not, maybe make it utility only.
#14
bone_naga
May 07, 2009 19:25:41
This is something I've been working on, but haven't play tested yet.

Action Point Uses still only 1/encounter though.

*Default: Gain an extra action this turn of your choice (standard, move or minor)
*Use an encounter power in place of a basic attack
*Turn a hit to your character into a miss (opposed roll must succeed)
*Take an action (1) during someone else's turn (immediate interrupt), if an attack it must be a basic attack
*Guaranteed Natural 20 on your next skill check during combat (I don't allow intimidate to force a foe to surrender, if you do this is too good...and might be anyway, trying to encourage some stunting though)
*Get a +3 bonus to your next saving throw, for death saves a 17-19 is treated as a 20
*Permanently Move to a different position in the initiative order of your choice
*Spend a Healing surge and get half your surge value in Temp HP
*For the duration of the encounter a power of your choice has the "reliable" keyword, ignore all effects on a miss.
*Mimic a daily/encounter/utility power from your class that you do not actually possess (-3 to damage, -1 to hit) it uses one of your "equipped" ones of the same or higher level.

I'm not worried about stepping on the toes of powers a little bit, class features and paragon features were the big concern, to that effect the last one might be too close to the wizard's tome implement, not sure if the penalty is enough to balance that off or not, maybe make it utility only.

Really good ideas there. I especially love the idea of being able to take an immediate action. I think I would use LordOfWeasels suggestion instead of making a power Reliable, though.
#15
nowiwantmydmg
May 08, 2009 9:51:41
Really good ideas there. I especially love the idea of being able to take an immediate action. I think I would use LordOfWeasels suggestion instead of making a power Reliable, though.

Fair comment, I'm already changing the mechanics a bit with this, so for the most part I'm trying to stick within the existing mechanical framework, reliable fits the bill for me and still eliminates some of the suckitude of missing with a daily.

Thanks for the feedback though, it's great to have.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 DoomDuck May 02, 2009 13:59:23	Was doing some pondering along with one of my players re: Action Points. The idea came up on his end about allowing for alternate uses of them, much as some paragon/epics already allow. Thought I'd throw some of the ideas on here and see if there were some glaring problems or the like with the ideas, particular balance issues, etc. 1) Use an Action Point to gain an extra action (just as it is now). 2) Use an Action Point for an Automatic 20 during a Death Save 3a) Use an Action Point during a short rest to regain the use of a Daily power or use an Action Point during Combat to regain an Encounter power 3b) Use an Action Point during Combat to regain the use of any power. 3c) Use an Action Point during Combat to regain the use of an Encounter Power OR an Item Power (as well as during a short rest to regain the use of a Daily power) Also, as a necessary corollary to the above additions: a) You may use one Action Point per encounter (just as it is now) b) You may use one Action Point per type of usage per encounter. (So, potentially 3 APs per encounter) Also, we're aware that some of the above abilities already belong to a Paragon/ Epic class - in which case either the class version would have fewer limitations or additional power would be granted. Any thoughts on the various ideas would be awesome grin. ~DD
#2 bone_naga May 02, 2009 21:27:51	I would limit APs to 1 per encounter, total. Also, I would not allow using APs to regain dailies (think about a wizard casting sleep every other encounter plus an additional time per day). Other than that, doesnt look like anything that should break the game.
#3 Namagem May 02, 2009 22:38:23	You may use one Action Point per encounter (just as it is now) Actually, as it is now, you only have one action point per milestone/extended rest per tier An epic level character has three per day. I approve with this, though. Being able to burn your action point to stop dying would make it oh, so worth saving that point.
#4 rikiji May 03, 2009 2:33:23	It really seems to be a fair amount of extra work to implement something like this without stepping on the toes of the paragon paths and epic abilities that already do things like this. Offhand the natrural 20 on a death saving throw is bad - it discourages people from using action points for other things (and is really, really overpowered - equivalent to a highest tier daily utility). I also dislike the idea of spending action points when not in an encounter - that kind of defeats the flavour of the system altogether. Selecting a small number of alternate uses might not be a bad option - but they should be weaker than abilities granted by paragon paths or epics and I'd highly suggest requiring a feat expenditure to be able to use them (there are a handful of race specific feats that do this already, and on the whole they work well). Really, the only option I can see using from your suggestions (aside from the default) would be a variant of 3c - recovering the use of an item power. As a feat, that would work fairly well. The others are either overpowered or infringe too much on paragon paths.
#5 frosty14 May 03, 2009 13:35:23	Maybe not getting a nat. twenty but a modifier of some sort to the die roll, such as maybeee.......+10 bonus more or less Regain a power sound good. I would have them make a relevent savings throw or suffer a negative modifier until the character rested. This would be to simulate the extreme effort that was put out by the character.
#6 narkaious May 04, 2009 13:09:51	Take it for what's it's worth but I am play testing an alternate use Use the action point before any attack rolls, to make a daily Reliable(for that use). All attacks must miss for it not to be expended. It hasn't been used to many times yet, but it does help with those times when you really need to hit with the daily.
#7 LordOfWeasels May 04, 2009 13:39:13	Namagem: Actually, as it is now, you only have one action point per milestone/extended rest per tier That's not what he's talking about. Right now, you can't use more than one Action Point per encounter, no matter how many Action Points you have or why you have them. DoomDuck: 2) Use an Action Point for an Automatic 20 during a Death Save Nice! Especially since if you went down while having an Action Point left, that's kinda depressing (why didn't you spend it to Second Wind last turn, hmm?). I like this one, and I don't think it's broken. 3a) Use an Action Point during a short rest to regain the use of a Daily power Uh, ohgodnoWAYTOOSTRONG. You've just turned every player's favourite Daily into a "once per encounter for the first three encounters every day, then once per two after that" power. This EXACT usage, incidentally, is why Veteran's Armor got nerfed so quickly after AV was published, and that required A) armor B) an Item daily power usage in addition to the Action Point. or use an Action Point during Combat to regain an Encounter power Sounds good. Add a caveat: Can't use the same Encounter power twice in the same round, and I'm happy with this one. 3b) Use an Action Point during Combat to regain the use of any power. See 3A except now they can pull out the big Daily twice in one fight rather than once in each of the first three fights and then once in every two fights thereafter. Action Points recharging Dailies, for all characters, at all levels, every time they've got an Action Point, is way too strong. Archmages, at level 26, get a Daily power to let them recharge one Daily power. 3c) Use an Action Point during Combat to regain the use of an Encounter Power OR an Item Power Again, I don't mind Encounters. Item powers tend to be Dailies, though, even if they're not as awesome as Daily Attack Powers, and that makes me leery. I'd be much more inclined to say "Spend an Action Point to gain the use of an extra Daily Magic Item usage, as if you'd reached one more Milestone." (as well as during a short rest to regain the use of a Daily power) And here we're back to this again. AP recharges Daily is way, way, way too strong.
#8 LordOfWeasels May 04, 2009 13:44:05	Narkaious: Use the action point before any attack rolls, to make a daily Reliable(for that use). All attacks must miss for it not to be expended. Not bad. I'd do it this way instead: "If your Daily Power misses all targets, you may spend an Action Point immediately. No Miss or Effects are generated from that power, and the Daily Power is not expended." Basically, you toss your Action Point to get your Daily back after your Daily misses all targets. No Miss Effects, no Zones or Conjurations created, you can use it again the next time you get a Standard Action if you want to. This way, you're losing a Standard and your Action Point for this Encounter to get a second shot at your Daily. I think that's pretty fair. Your way, you're losing the Action Point for a chance at a second shot, if the first one misses. I can't see many people wanting to do that.
#9 angrygazebo May 04, 2009 13:57:58	My friends and I play D&D 4th ed and also play Star Wars Saga edition, and one concept I'm considering bringing over is the idea of "Force Points", players have a certain number of force points per level they can use to add 1d6 to any roll. I think this is a fun concept, and I would perhaps like to have Action Points be usable for a similar effect, though adding 1d6 seems like a not much of a benefit (in SW players have many Force Points per level, whereas Action Points seem harder to come by). Any thoughts?
#10 bone_naga May 04, 2009 16:39:37	My friends and I play D&D 4th ed and also play Star Wars Saga edition, and one concept I'm considering bringing over is the idea of "Force Points", players have a certain number of force points per level they can use to add 1d6 to any roll. I think this is a fun concept, and I would perhaps like to have Action Points be usable for a similar effect, though adding 1d6 seems like a not much of a benefit (in SW players have many Force Points per level, whereas Action Points seem harder to come by). Any thoughts? I could still see it being useful for that daily that just must hit. You could even change it into a flat bonus instead of an extra die roll (save time and the player doesnt feel cheated when it only gives him +1). However, then you're stepping into territory already occupied by some of the paragon paths.
#11 LordOfWeasels May 04, 2009 16:40:56	AngryGazebo: That's a pretty typical kind of "cheat mechanic". D&D4 is just about the only semi-modern game I know of without one - it's a staple of post-1990 game design that players should have a way to say "THIS roll is more important to me, I will sacrifice something to be more likely to succeed." D&D4 takes a slightly different take on things: It's very, very rare for any one roll to matter in the larger scheme of things. It takes a SERIES of rolls to succeed or fail on anything, and so your "cheat" mechanic is inherent in building a character who is good at something. Because you took that Feat or that Power or bought that Stat, you are consistently better at those types of rolls, and so you succeed more often. I dont' see anything wrong with adding that cheat mechanic, myself. I'd be tempted, though, to not tie it to Action Points. Instead, have a rule like "once per GAME SESSION, reroll the dice and keep the new roll" or "once per game session roll a 1d6 and add it to the results of a D20 you just rolled".
#12 DoomDuck May 05, 2009 23:25:15	Awesome! Thanks for all the responses. Here was the thought for most of these: provide the option to spend one resource to gain another, decreasing the "hording" mentality I've run into where Dailies aren't used for fear that they'd be needed more later. Since first posting these, I've entirely discounted the idea of using the same Daily twice in an encounter. If anything, that would require a limitation of "still just one use of that Daily in an encounter." Also, the "back from the dead" one seems like it might cause MORE hording in an effort to curtail death. Anyways, consensus here seems to be that regaining a Daily every milestone is way, way too useful. Hmm. ~DD
#13 nowiwantmydmg May 07, 2009 10:31:34	This is something I've been working on, but haven't play tested yet. Action Point Uses still only 1/encounter though. Default: Gain an extra action this turn of your choice (standard, move or minor) Use an encounter power in place of a basic attack Turn a hit to your character into a miss (opposed roll must succeed) Take an action (1) during someone else's turn (immediate interrupt), if an attack it must be a basic attack Guaranteed Natural 20 on your next skill check during combat (I don't allow intimidate to force a foe to surrender, if you do this is too good...and might be anyway, trying to encourage some stunting though) Get a +3 bonus to your next saving throw, for death saves a 17-19 is treated as a 20 Permanently Move to a different position in the initiative order of your choice Spend a Healing surge and get half your surge value in Temp HP For the duration of the encounter a power of your choice has the "reliable" keyword, ignore all effects on a miss. Mimic a daily/encounter/utility power from your class that you do not actually possess (-3 to damage, -1 to hit) it uses one of your "equipped" ones of the same or higher level. I'm not worried about stepping on the toes of powers a little bit, class features and paragon features were the big concern, to that effect the last one might be too close to the wizard's tome implement, not sure if the penalty is enough to balance that off or not, maybe make it utility only.
#14 bone_naga May 07, 2009 19:25:41	This is something I've been working on, but haven't play tested yet. Action Point Uses still only 1/encounter though. Default: Gain an extra action this turn of your choice (standard, move or minor) Use an encounter power in place of a basic attack Turn a hit to your character into a miss (opposed roll must succeed) Take an action (1) during someone else's turn (immediate interrupt), if an attack it must be a basic attack Guaranteed Natural 20 on your next skill check during combat (I don't allow intimidate to force a foe to surrender, if you do this is too good...and might be anyway, trying to encourage some stunting though) Get a +3 bonus to your next saving throw, for death saves a 17-19 is treated as a 20 Permanently Move to a different position in the initiative order of your choice Spend a Healing surge and get half your surge value in Temp HP For the duration of the encounter a power of your choice has the "reliable" keyword, ignore all effects on a miss. Mimic a daily/encounter/utility power from your class that you do not actually possess (-3 to damage, -1 to hit) it uses one of your "equipped" ones of the same or higher level. I'm not worried about stepping on the toes of powers a little bit, class features and paragon features were the big concern, to that effect the last one might be too close to the wizard's tome implement, not sure if the penalty is enough to balance that off or not, maybe make it utility only. Really good ideas there. I especially love the idea of being able to take an immediate action. I think I would use LordOfWeasels suggestion instead of making a power Reliable, though.
#15 nowiwantmydmg May 08, 2009 9:51:41	Really good ideas there. I especially love the idea of being able to take an immediate action. I think I would use LordOfWeasels suggestion instead of making a power Reliable, though. Fair comment, I'm already changing the mechanics a bit with this, so for the most part I'm trying to stick within the existing mechanical framework, reliable fits the bill for me and still eliminates some of the suckitude of missing with a daily. Thanks for the feedback though, it's great to have.