Action Point Alternative (Turning Points) - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Action Point Alternative (Turning Points)

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
ddubious
Jan 28, 2012 5:40:48
I'd appreciate suggestions, play testing in a delve, or constructive criticism.

NEW ACTION POINT RULES (TURNING POINTS)

I changed action points in one of my games. To reduce confusion, I named the new ones 'Turning Points'. I don't actually use this name in my game, but it helps a forum discussion. Below are the changes to Action Points that you'd see in my game. The reasons I made the changes are in italics. Feel free to ignore them.

Why did I change the rules? I didn't like them. They bored me and made me sad. I love 4e, but I don't like 4e action points.

Recently, while remembering several games of 3.5, I grew nostalgic for the old action points. They added a d6 to your d20 role on attacks and skill checks both. Since you only had a few per level, you saved them for the important stuff. The 4e action point is indeed much sleeker, being that its rules are brief and simple (it's another action!), but I miss HOW it was used in battle, and how it could be used on skill checks out of battle.

4e action points aren't awful - I liked using second wind, making thievery checks, climbing, or rolling another arcana in a skill challenge to dispel a summoning rune quickly. Essentially, I liked action points when they weren't used to attack. I did not like that (with RARE exception) they serve battle in an unheroic manner. They are used less to turn the fate of battle in key moments and more to stack attacks on vulnerable or bloody opponents. While it is true that some characters are defined conceptually by their combat prowess, I believe this action point is a mini "haste" that is never being used to alter the story of battle or add to the glamor. And I don't believe battle and story are separate games being played together - mechanics should reflect heroics and the narrative.

I don't want to take power away from my players, but I wish action were different, so without further ado...

What Does an Turning Point do?

Try Again - Re-roll an attack, save, skill check, or ability check you just failed. Keep the better of the two rolls. Skill checks and ability checks gain a +5 bonus on the re-roll.

(To broaden action point use to include skills and saves, and to encourage skill use over battle blasting.)

Shake it Off - Roll a save against an effect on you that a save can end. Alternatively, roll a save against any effect on you (that normally ends on or before the start of your next turn) to end that effect, even though it does not allow a save.

(Because I felt it fit well with the design - to muscle through evil spells and bad situations. Also, to help out dazed players who may have needed an old action point to accomplish anything.)

Second Wind - Use your second wind as a free action.

(Second wind is hard enough to use as it is. This offers a new to spend it, but it costs your Turning Point. Don't feel bad, me dwarves - there are still plenty of attacks and saves for you to re-roll when you DON'T need this rule.)

Stand Up - Stand up from prone, if possible.

(An old use of second wind that is still sometimes necessary)

Other Rules.

Reliable - If you failed your re-roll or save, you keep your Turning Point, but cannot use it on the same roll. If something keeps your Turning Point from working properly (e.g., enemies in a monster's aura cannot spend second winds), you keep your Turning Point.

(Because who hates missing when you spent an action point to do it? Action points should make a difference.)

Once per Encounter, Maximum One - You have one point until you spend it, and you get it back after each encounter. You cannot save up points.

(Once per encounter is because I hate the "once per 2 encounters" that a milestone brings. Also, some of my players will be bitter over the change to turning points. This ruling is a grain of sugar.

Since your new point comes AFTER each battle, you can decide (out of battle) whether the skill check your re-rolling is worth missing the action point in a forthcoming battle. If I'd done it the other way around, getting a point at the start of each encounter, the points would never leave combat.)

Paragon Paths, Items, and Feats etc - Other benefits surrounding old action points no longer apply. Avoid all such character options. Some examples: many tattoo powers will never activate, your level 11 action point trait is meaningless, and feats like Stubborn Survivor will never give you save bonuses.

There is one exception to this rule. Warlord's Commanding Presence (some versions) still work. They have half their normal effect, but can be used when an ally takes any standard action appropriate (rather than an action point). This is limited to once per encounter (per ally), and cannot be used on allies who never would have had action points (e.g., conjured monsters).

Addition - It might not seem fair to players to take their paragon features. They can't avoid them, and might feel robbed. Consider this - allow the benefit to be used once per encounter as a free action on a player's turn. If the bonus required that the old action point be spent to do something specific, like an attack, then the character must use his standard action to do that the round he wants the benefit to activate.

(Yes, it sucks. Probably the part I'll take the most heat for. I don't want these powers in the game. I find paragon action point benefits unnecessary for a fun battle (and often forgotten), and some tattoos overpowered. My dear apologies to people with interesting and unique action point power, but there are too many problems when they're crossed with Turning Points, and I DO NOT see the old powers as a needed addition to the game.

It was clear that the warlord class took a direct hit that it couldn't avoid. I did my best to salvage their Presence trait - reasoning that half the previous benefit was okay if they used the power nearly twice as often - per encounter rather than per action point. There's also now a little more freedom to call down these buffs from the warlord whenever, without having to use an action point. Still, Bravura presence doesn't work, so... is that such a big loss?)

Also Monsters - All of these rules apply to monsters as well.

(More heat coming my way. Be careful throwing massive debuffs onto a boss who can end them with an action point. Still, this is instead of him getting a whole extra action to attack with, and it totally helps solve the issue of bosses getting brought down by a few status effects).

#2
ciaran
Jan 28, 2012 12:59:23
You could expand this one a bit.
Try Again - Reroll an ability check, attack, saving throw, or skill check, with a +5 bonus if it not for an attack. Use the better of the two rolls.

Also, if my memory serves correctly, almost every paragon class has an action point related feature. I think you should devise a way to incorperate them.

#3
ddubious
Jan 28, 2012 19:04:09
You could expand this one a bit.
Try Again - Reroll an ability check, attack, saving throw, or skill check, with a +5 bonus if it not for an attack. Use the better of the two rolls.

Also, if my memory serves correctly, almost every paragon class has an action point related feature. I think you should devise a way to incorperate them.

I could expand the bonus to +5, but I'd find it too overpowered for saving throws. They're already reliable, so I don't have to worry about a wasted point. +5 would be too much save for me to handle, especially if a solo used it to can powers automatically (with a total +10 bonus). Some players also have healthy bonuses to saves from Paragon Paths, resilent focus, etc. I didn't want to action points a sure thing - no one action is ever assured. But again, reliable - you missed now, but you still got the point to use again later.

The paragon path powers were the toughest part. Items are something DMs and characters can avoid, even the feats based on action points can be too. Paragon Path powers, however, can't be avoided - everyone gets them, always.

My problem was that I couldn't think of a nice substitute. If I based them on turning points, it would push the point back into being used solely in battle, and make a player use them for reasons other than the actual reroll or benefit.

I toyed with "when you're first bloodied in an encounter". Its doesn't perfectly fit all the paths, and you were previously able to decide when to use "adjacent enemies take fire damage equal to..." Here you might use it when it does nothing.

My best option was letting players use the benefit as a free action once per encounter. It had total freedom for when they use it, and a little more often (per encounter) than before. I was okay with it happening more often because raw attack bonuses (e.g., +4 to hit until the end of your next turn) meant one less attack to gain those bonuses on. Old action pointers would action point FIRST, followed by a standard, and then another next round. Three attacks getting the bonus rather than two with Turning points. Using them a bit more often seemed fair. If it was too often or too powerful with no limits on when it was used, I could have also tried what I did to warlord - halve the bonuses.

I eventually decided I didn't need them in my game. I know everyone got one, but they also got another level 11 trait too. I was willing to run a game without a small bonus that only sometimes occured. That isn't likely everyone's opinion, but I didn't expect a mass of people to flock to a new action point system. They never do.

So if anyone else wanted to use this, but felt it was unfair to lose the level 11 paragon feature, consider allowing it once per encounter, as a free action. If it required that the action be spent to do something specific, like an attack, then the character must use his standard action to do that this round.
#4
ciaran
Jan 28, 2012 21:07:36 Jason Buhlman ran my group through a campaign for several months about 5 years ago. He used what he called Hero Points. I think you got one at the beginning of each character level. What they did was very loose, and was always up to him. Generally, if you used it before an action, it would be very heroic. One time the cleric couldn't move far enough to touch an ally with a cure spell. With the Hero Point, he not only moved far enough, but healed every party member in the room. If you used it before an attack, you often automatically hit and crit. If you used it after something bad happened, such as missing with an attack or getting hit for massive damage, you Hero Point helped you, but not in such a grand fashion. Using it to save your own ass was not rewarded the way taking a risk was.

I thought it was a good system. Its best feature, the informal decision on the part of the DM, is also its liabilty when you try to put it into written form for the rulebook. By becoming concrete, it loses its magic.
#5
ddubious
Jan 29, 2012 2:55:53
Jason Buhlman ran my group through a campaign for several months about 5 years ago. He used what he called Hero Points. I think you got one at the beginning of each character level. What they did was very loose, and was always up to him. Generally, if you used it before an action, it would be very heroic. One time the cleric couldn't move far enough to touch an ally with a cure spell. With the Hero Point, he not only moved far enough, but healed every party member in the room. If you used it before an attack, you often automatically hit and crit. If you used it after something bad happened, such as missing with an attack or getting hit for massive damage, you Hero Point helped you, but not in such a grand fashion. Using it to save your own ass was not rewarded the way taking a risk was.

I thought it was a good system. Its best feature, the informal decision on the part of the DM, is also its liabilty when you try to put it into written form for the rulebook. By becoming concrete, it loses its magic.

Yeah, putting rules to them can indeed ruin them.

I have always been a mechanical DM. Even in 2nd ed, I would craft a story with custom elements and new creatures, but make sure I had an idea of how they worked. When they heroes had a magic puzzle with a stone door they couldn't open, I didn't make a fantastically hugely magical un"knock"able door, I made an anti-magical door - big enough to resist forced entry. The antimagic field was tied to the puzzle.

Before writing this post and using these Turning Points in my game, I forum scanned for other action point systems. Some had great ideas, like allowing an action point to add elements to the story. (DM - "You have broken free of the jail, but the guards are coming?" Player - "Action point - They searched me when I was arrested, but didn't find the knife tucked into my boot! I draw it and defend myself!"). I loved that, and might even allow it, but I'd prefer a default - a minimum mechanic that players can rely on.

I guess my point here is that I improvise when I must, but I'll fight tooth and nail to find a mechanic first. I do it with traps - way overplanned if I had time that week, improvised completely if I didn't.

In my "research" (one night and caffein), I found many references of hero points for other games. If your DM/GM/Storyteller was inspired by another system, I'd love to know which one. Might give me better ideas. Maybe even a mechanic on how to be unmechanical with them.
#6
mhbjarkistef
Feb 07, 2012 0:46:40 bumping to remind myself to read later.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ddubious Jan 28, 2012 5:40:48	I'd appreciate suggestions, play testing in a delve, or constructive criticism. NEW ACTION POINT RULES (TURNING POINTS) I changed action points in one of my games. To reduce confusion, I named the new ones 'Turning Points'. I don't actually use this name in my game, but it helps a forum discussion. Below are the changes to Action Points that you'd see in my game. The reasons I made the changes are in italics. Feel free to ignore them. Why did I change the rules? I didn't like them. They bored me and made me sad. I love 4e, but I don't like 4e action points. Recently, while remembering several games of 3.5, I grew nostalgic for the old action points. They added a d6 to your d20 role on attacks and skill checks both. Since you only had a few per level, you saved them for the important stuff. The 4e action point is indeed much sleeker, being that its rules are brief and simple (it's another action!), but I miss HOW it was used in battle, and how it could be used on skill checks out of battle. 4e action points aren't awful - I liked using second wind, making thievery checks, climbing, or rolling another arcana in a skill challenge to dispel a summoning rune quickly. Essentially, I liked action points when they weren't used to attack. I did not like that (with RARE exception) they serve battle in an unheroic manner. They are used less to turn the fate of battle in key moments and more to stack attacks on vulnerable or bloody opponents. While it is true that some characters are defined conceptually by their combat prowess, I believe this action point is a mini "haste" that is never being used to alter the story of battle or add to the glamor. And I don't believe battle and story are separate games being played together - mechanics should reflect heroics and the narrative. I don't want to take power away from my players, but I wish action were different, so without further ado... What Does an Turning Point do? Try Again - Re-roll an attack, save, skill check, or ability check you just failed. Keep the better of the two rolls. Skill checks and ability checks gain a +5 bonus on the re-roll. (To broaden action point use to include skills and saves, and to encourage skill use over battle blasting.) Shake it Off - Roll a save against an effect on you that a save can end. Alternatively, roll a save against any effect on you (that normally ends on or before the start of your next turn) to end that effect, even though it does not allow a save. (Because I felt it fit well with the design - to muscle through evil spells and bad situations. Also, to help out dazed players who may have needed an old action point to accomplish anything.) Second Wind - Use your second wind as a free action. (Second wind is hard enough to use as it is. This offers a new to spend it, but it costs your Turning Point. Don't feel bad, me dwarves - there are still plenty of attacks and saves for you to re-roll when you DON'T need this rule.) Stand Up - Stand up from prone, if possible. (An old use of second wind that is still sometimes necessary) Other Rules. Reliable - If you failed your re-roll or save, you keep your Turning Point, but cannot use it on the same roll. If something keeps your Turning Point from working properly (e.g., enemies in a monster's aura cannot spend second winds), you keep your Turning Point. (Because who hates missing when you spent an action point to do it? Action points should make a difference.) Once per Encounter, Maximum One - You have one point until you spend it, and you get it back after each encounter. You cannot save up points. (Once per encounter is because I hate the "once per 2 encounters" that a milestone brings. Also, some of my players will be bitter over the change to turning points. This ruling is a grain of sugar. Since your new point comes AFTER each battle, you can decide (out of battle) whether the skill check your re-rolling is worth missing the action point in a forthcoming battle. If I'd done it the other way around, getting a point at the start of each encounter, the points would never leave combat.) Paragon Paths, Items, and Feats etc - Other benefits surrounding old action points no longer apply. Avoid all such character options. Some examples: many tattoo powers will never activate, your level 11 action point trait is meaningless, and feats like Stubborn Survivor will never give you save bonuses. There is one exception to this rule. Warlord's Commanding Presence (some versions) still work. They have half their normal effect, but can be used when an ally takes any standard action appropriate (rather than an action point). This is limited to once per encounter (per ally), and cannot be used on allies who never would have had action points (e.g., conjured monsters). Addition - It might not seem fair to players to take their paragon features. They can't avoid them, and might feel robbed. Consider this - allow the benefit to be used once per encounter as a free action on a player's turn. If the bonus required that the old action point be spent to do something specific, like an attack, then the character must use his standard action to do that the round he wants the benefit to activate. (Yes, it sucks. Probably the part I'll take the most heat for. I don't want these powers in the game. I find paragon action point benefits unnecessary for a fun battle (and often forgotten), and some tattoos overpowered. My dear apologies to people with interesting and unique action point power, but there are too many problems when they're crossed with Turning Points, and I DO NOT see the old powers as a needed addition to the game. It was clear that the warlord class took a direct hit that it couldn't avoid. I did my best to salvage their Presence trait - reasoning that half the previous benefit was okay if they used the power nearly twice as often - per encounter rather than per action point. There's also now a little more freedom to call down these buffs from the warlord whenever, without having to use an action point. Still, Bravura presence doesn't work, so... is that such a big loss?) Also Monsters - All of these rules apply to monsters as well. (More heat coming my way. Be careful throwing massive debuffs onto a boss who can end them with an action point. Still, this is instead of him getting a whole extra action to attack with, and it totally helps solve the issue of bosses getting brought down by a few status effects).
#2 ciaran Jan 28, 2012 12:59:23	You could expand this one a bit. Try Again - Reroll an ability check, attack, saving throw, or skill check, with a +5 bonus if it not for an attack. Use the better of the two rolls. Also, if my memory serves correctly, almost every paragon class has an action point related feature. I think you should devise a way to incorperate them.
#3 ddubious Jan 28, 2012 19:04:09	You could expand this one a bit. Try Again - Reroll an ability check, attack, saving throw, or skill check, with a +5 bonus if it not for an attack. Use the better of the two rolls. Also, if my memory serves correctly, almost every paragon class has an action point related feature. I think you should devise a way to incorperate them. I could expand the bonus to +5, but I'd find it too overpowered for saving throws. They're already reliable, so I don't have to worry about a wasted point. +5 would be too much save for me to handle, especially if a solo used it to can powers automatically (with a total +10 bonus). Some players also have healthy bonuses to saves from Paragon Paths, resilent focus, etc. I didn't want to action points a sure thing - no one action is ever assured. But again, reliable - you missed now, but you still got the point to use again later. The paragon path powers were the toughest part. Items are something DMs and characters can avoid, even the feats based on action points can be too. Paragon Path powers, however, can't be avoided - everyone gets them, always. My problem was that I couldn't think of a nice substitute. If I based them on turning points, it would push the point back into being used solely in battle, and make a player use them for reasons other than the actual reroll or benefit. I toyed with "when you're first bloodied in an encounter". Its doesn't perfectly fit all the paths, and you were previously able to decide when to use "adjacent enemies take fire damage equal to..." Here you might use it when it does nothing. My best option was letting players use the benefit as a free action once per encounter. It had total freedom for when they use it, and a little more often (per encounter) than before. I was okay with it happening more often because raw attack bonuses (e.g., +4 to hit until the end of your next turn) meant one less attack to gain those bonuses on. Old action pointers would action point FIRST, followed by a standard, and then another next round. Three attacks getting the bonus rather than two with Turning points. Using them a bit more often seemed fair. If it was too often or too powerful with no limits on when it was used, I could have also tried what I did to warlord - halve the bonuses. I eventually decided I didn't need them in my game. I know everyone got one, but they also got another level 11 trait too. I was willing to run a game without a small bonus that only sometimes occured. That isn't likely everyone's opinion, but I didn't expect a mass of people to flock to a new action point system. They never do. So if anyone else wanted to use this, but felt it was unfair to lose the level 11 paragon feature, consider allowing it once per encounter, as a free action. If it required that the action be spent to do something specific, like an attack, then the character must use his standard action to do that this round.
#4 ciaran Jan 28, 2012 21:07:36	Jason Buhlman ran my group through a campaign for several months about 5 years ago. He used what he called Hero Points. I think you got one at the beginning of each character level. What they did was very loose, and was always up to him. Generally, if you used it before an action, it would be very heroic. One time the cleric couldn't move far enough to touch an ally with a cure spell. With the Hero Point, he not only moved far enough, but healed every party member in the room. If you used it before an attack, you often automatically hit and crit. If you used it after something bad happened, such as missing with an attack or getting hit for massive damage, you Hero Point helped you, but not in such a grand fashion. Using it to save your own ass was not rewarded the way taking a risk was. I thought it was a good system. Its best feature, the informal decision on the part of the DM, is also its liabilty when you try to put it into written form for the rulebook. By becoming concrete, it loses its magic.
#5 ddubious Jan 29, 2012 2:55:53	Jason Buhlman ran my group through a campaign for several months about 5 years ago. He used what he called Hero Points. I think you got one at the beginning of each character level. What they did was very loose, and was always up to him. Generally, if you used it before an action, it would be very heroic. One time the cleric couldn't move far enough to touch an ally with a cure spell. With the Hero Point, he not only moved far enough, but healed every party member in the room. If you used it before an attack, you often automatically hit and crit. If you used it after something bad happened, such as missing with an attack or getting hit for massive damage, you Hero Point helped you, but not in such a grand fashion. Using it to save your own ass was not rewarded the way taking a risk was. I thought it was a good system. Its best feature, the informal decision on the part of the DM, is also its liabilty when you try to put it into written form for the rulebook. By becoming concrete, it loses its magic. Yeah, putting rules to them can indeed ruin them. I have always been a mechanical DM. Even in 2nd ed, I would craft a story with custom elements and new creatures, but make sure I had an idea of how they worked. When they heroes had a magic puzzle with a stone door they couldn't open, I didn't make a fantastically hugely magical un"knock"able door, I made an anti-magical door - big enough to resist forced entry. The antimagic field was tied to the puzzle. Before writing this post and using these Turning Points in my game, I forum scanned for other action point systems. Some had great ideas, like allowing an action point to add elements to the story. (DM - "You have broken free of the jail, but the guards are coming?" Player - "Action point - They searched me when I was arrested, but didn't find the knife tucked into my boot! I draw it and defend myself!"). I loved that, and might even allow it, but I'd prefer a default - a minimum mechanic that players can rely on. I guess my point here is that I improvise when I must, but I'll fight tooth and nail to find a mechanic first. I do it with traps - way overplanned if I had time that week, improvised completely if I didn't. In my "research" (one night and caffein), I found many references of hero points for other games. If your DM/GM/Storyteller was inspired by another system, I'd love to know which one. Might give me better ideas. Maybe even a mechanic on how to be unmechanical with them.
#6 mhbjarkistef Feb 07, 2012 0:46:40	bumping to remind myself to read later.