Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 arcana_zero May 27, 2011 1:08:23	Expedition to Castle Ravenloft was my favorite module of 3.5 and I really enjoyed it. However, I am now attempting to run it again in 4e. I think that 4e will actually allow for grander, more exciting encounters, and the story of course won't need any changing. However, as I am not as learned and practiced a DM in 4e as I am in 3.5 (I was a 3.5 hold out, and I've only been playing 4th Edition for about a year) I need advice about how to approach certain aspects of the game and I would really appreciate the advice of other members on the forum. Aside from addressing purely mechanical issues, I'd also love the input of others on how I'm altering some of the story elements of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. Now, for the problem: Fortunately for me Open Grave not only has many of the monsters featured in Castle Ravenloft (including its antagonist) but it also has them grouped together within a range of levels that makes them all suitable to be played along side each other. However I am having trouble with finding a way to replicate the frequent Strahd attacks featured in EtCR in 4e. Considering Strahd is a 20th level Solo monster, and the PCs will probably span at least 5 levels during their stay in Ravenloft it seems like if I tried to perfectly simulate that element of the module the PCs would be totally overwhelmed/totally rofl-stomped. Does anyone have any advice on how to reconcile the frequent attack element of the module and Strahds much more powerful 4e incarnation? Now, for an alteration. Even when I ran EtCR in 3.5 I thought the whole day heart thing sort of defeated some of the internal flavor and atmosphere of Ravenloft. The notion of day walking vampires has always chaffed me as seeming misplaced, and anti-thematic. So, I thought that I would replace the day heart element of the module with a ritual or artifact that would eventually completely extinguish the Suns light or otherwise completely block it from the world. In meshes really well with Strahd's undead legions motivation, and I think would add an element of urgency, especially if the PCs knew they had a limited amount of time to stop the ritual from occurring. While this would keep the PCs safe from Strahd and his vampiric minions during the day, and some would say that would kill the feeling of constant danger, its not like Strahd is short of minions who aren't damaged by the daylight. Does anyone have any suggestions, advice, or cometary concerning either of these two issues?
#2 smq May 27, 2011 5:08:27	I agree about the day heart. But in my opinion adding a ritual to extinguish the sun would do just as much thematic harm to the module. Ravenloft is gothic horror - crazed vampiric wizards trying to block out the sun and plunge the world into darkness don't fit the theme. I'd try to keep the threat on a more personal level. Of course, that's just personal preference, if you want a world-saving adventure for your players then go for it. One of Strahd's motivations in the original I6 module was to try and construct a magical artefact that would essentially make it night wherever he went, allowing him to travel abroad freely. He (mistakenly) thinks the PCs have the vital last piece he needs to construct the device, so he tries to kidnap them one by one until one of them gives it up. He holds off on totally destroying the party, until he realises that none of them have what he wants. That could lead to interesting situations in play, either in place of or in combination with your sun-extinguishing ritual. For the daylight problem, a couple suggestions. One way to maintain a sense of danger would be to have Strahd's minions harry the party during the day, to prevent them from taking an extended rest. When night comes, they may or may not be attacked in full force. Let the players get the sense of being chipped away at during the day, and then watch them get paranoid as nightfall approaches, either waiting for an attack that never comes, or being attacked in their sleep, or having to fight off Strahd and his minions while not fully rested. Bonus points if you can get them to stay up all night without ever being attacked. That could become frustrating if overused, but in the right amounts it could give the players a greater sense of tension and fear. Particularly if Strahd is kidnapping PCs as above - one night a player is dragged off by wolves; the next morning they return claiming to have no memory of what happened while they were away. Maybe they've been charmed/dominated by the vampire, maybe they haven't. Let the players worry about that for the next day or so. The alternative would be to have Barovia covered by thick black stormclouds, which don't break apart until Strahd is dead. There's no direct sunlight, so Strahd can appear at any time. Plus, ominous thunder whenever you need it. Strahd himself shouldn't be too difficult to tone down. Set his level to be a suitably difficult end-of-campaign fight for whatever level the PCs will be at that point, using the level reduction rules on page 174 of the DMG. For earlier attacks, have Strahd's goal be to terrorise the party. He doesn't want to stick around long enough for the PCs to get a good handle on his powers and capabilities. He appears suddenly, attacks viciously, then retreats. Set a certain number of turns ahead of time for each encounter, and have Strahd retreat after that time has passed, no matter what. Obviously, this works best if Strahd has a reason not to destroy them outright. Hope this helps.
#3 arcana_zero May 27, 2011 11:18:37	I agree about the day heart. But in my opinion adding a ritual to extinguish the sun would do just as much thematic harm to the module. Ravenloft is gothic horror - crazed vampiric wizards trying to block out the sun and plunge the world into darkness don't fit the theme. I'd try to keep the threat on a more personal level. Of course, that's just personal preference, if you want a world-saving adventure for your players then go for it. Sense the entire campaign is leading up to EtCR I thought it would be more appropriate to mingle the "world domination" aspiration of Strahd with his more personal goals: capture the love of Ireena/Tatyana, conflicted about having killed his brother, etc etc, but i understand and appreciate your position. Strahd himself shouldn't be too difficult to tone down. Set his level to be a suitably difficult end-of-campaign fight for whatever level the PCs will be at that point, using the level reduction rules on page 174 of the DMG. For earlier attacks, have Strahd's goal be to terrorize the party. He doesn't want to stick around long enough for the PCs to get a good handle on his powers and capabilities. He appears suddenly, attacks viciously, then retreats. Set a certain number of turns ahead of time for each encounter, and have Strahd retreat after that time has passed, no matter what. Obviously, this works best if Strahd has a reason not to destroy them outright. As Strahd is presented in Open Grave he's a level 20 Solo Skirmisher, and I think that makes for a pretty good "end point". But you've hit upon what I'm struggling with so much: The PCs will eventually learn, after dealing with the Zombie plague and the witches of Lysaga Hill, that Strahd is the ultimate master mind, and that aside from trying to spread the undead plague far and wide he is also trying to plundge the world into littoral darkness and that they need either (or both) the holy symbol of ravenkind and the sun sword to truely destroy Strahd. I'm worried that at this stage, where Strahd would want to blow them away before they get too close to his ultimate weaknesses, that they won't be at a high enough level to deal with his frequent and sudden attacks. Do you see what I mean? Its both a mechanical problem and a fluff/story problem. I want to have a solid solution, justification, explanation, for why Strahd doesn't blow them away outright, and if he does try to do that once the story progresses far enough, I want to make sure the PCs can actually handle his harrying. I'm planning on the party arriving in Ravenloft around 10-12 and by the time they've outlived their usefulness to Strahd and are attempting to Stop him, they need to be sufficiently leveled to where they can withstand confrontations with him before the final show down.
#4 smq May 27, 2011 12:50:17	As Strahd is presented in Open Grave he's a level 20 Solo Skirmisher, and I think that makes for a pretty good "end point". But you've hit upon what I'm struggling with so much: The PCs will eventually learn, after dealing with the Zombie plague and the witches of Lysaga Hill, that Strahd is the ultimate master mind, and that aside from trying to spread the undead plague far and wide he is also trying to plundge the world into littoral darkness and that they need either (or both) the holy symbol of ravenkind and the sun sword to truely destroy Strahd. I'm worried that at this stage, where Strahd would want to blow them away before they get too close to his ultimate weaknesses, that they won't be at a high enough level to deal with his frequent and sudden attacks. Do you see what I mean? Its both a mechanical problem and a fluff/story problem. I want to have a solid solution, justification, explanation, for why Strahd doesn't blow them away outright, and if he does try to do that once the story progresses far enough, I want to make sure the PCs can actually handle his harrying. I'm planning on the party arriving in Ravenloft around 10-12 and by the time they've outlived their usefulness to Strahd and are attempting to Stop him, they need to be sufficiently leveled to where they can withstand confrontations with him before the final show down. I understand what you mean, yes. With a little modification I think my previous idea could work. How about this: Strahd has misinterpreted a prophecy from Madam Eva - or perhaps she's deliberately mislead him. In either case, he now incorrectly believes that one of the PCs has or knows the whereabouts of a vital MacGuffin for his sun-extinguishing plot, or is otherwise key to the success of his plan. If he kills the PCs indiscriminately, he might kill the wrong one and never get what he needs. Instead, he attacks with the goal of dominating or dragging away by force one PC at a time. If, during the attack, it looks like he's about to kill one of the PCs he hasn't already captured, he backs off for fear of spoiling his plans. Captured PCs are dominated and interrogated, and when he's satisfied they're not the one he needs, he sends them back to the party, still dominated, to try and worm the information he wants out of the others. After kidnapping enough of the PCs, Strahd realises his mistake (or, more dramatically, comes to the conclusion that he's been tricked) and tries to kill the whole party. Or else, once they've uncovered one or two of his weaknesses, he decides they're too dangerous to let live. By that point, however, the party are powerful enough to fend him off. As a variation on that theme, one of the PCs might really be key to Strahd's plot, but because of the vagueness of Madam Eva's prophecy he doesn't know which one. He can't risk destroying any of the PCs until he's ruled out their being the tool he needs. This would require making up a suitable prediction from Madam Eva, plus deciding what the prediction really refers to. The players should probably recieve the prophecy from Madam Eva themselves, so it doesn't come as a complete surprise why Strahd wants them alive. If you've got a skilled enough player for the task, here's another idea cribbed from I6: Strahd wants Ireena to love him willingly, but he realises that she could never love a slathering undead creature of the night. So he decides to take a new identity. Shortly after the party have dealt with the Lysaga Hill witches, Strahd has his minions abduct one of the male PCs - preferably an attractive human. The PC is taken to the castle, where Strahd casts a spell to polymorph the PC into a vampire with his own face. He himself takes on the form of the PC, and returns to the group, having "escaped" the castle. When the PC is abducted, take the player aside, tell them what's happened, and ask them to take on the role of Strahd posing as their character. Strahd's goal will be to get close to Ireene, ideally take her along with the party on their adventure, and try to woo her and impress her with feats of valour, while his minions carry out his plot in his absence. You as DM will play the PC trapped in the form of a vampire. Strahd won't attack the party during this time, since he's not actually Strahd. When he's discovered, he dispels the polymorph (and the spell on the PC as well, to prevent him from using his vampiric powers against him), and control switches back to the player. By that time things should be near the endgame. If the only player you trust enough to play Strahd is playing a female character, a halfling or otherwise someone unsuitable as a form for Strahd, then have them abducted as normal, but Strahd approaches the party in the form of a handsome male human of a class determined by the controlling player. You can present this to the other players as a temporary character for the controlling player while their normal PC is missing, to avoid suspicion.
#5 arcana_zero May 27, 2011 13:30:56	I understand what you mean, yes. With a little modification I think my previous idea could work. How about this: Strahd has misinterpreted a prophecy from Madam Eva - or perhaps she's deliberately mislead him. In either case, he now incorrectly believes that one of the PCs has or knows the whereabouts of a vital MacGuffin for his sun-extinguishing plot, or is otherwise key to the success of his plan. If he kills the PCs indiscriminately, he might kill the wrong one and never get what he needs. Instead, he attacks with the goal of dominating or dragging away by force one PC at a time. If, during the attack, it looks like he's about to kill one of the PCs he hasn't already captured, he backs off for fear of spoiling his plans. Captured PCs are dominated and interrogated, and when he's satisfied they're not the one he needs, he sends them back to the party, still dominated, to try and worm the information he wants out of the others. After kidnapping enough of the PCs, Strahd realises his mistake (or, more dramatically, comes to the conclusion that he's been tricked) and tries to kill the whole party. Or else, once they've uncovered one or two of his weaknesses, he decides they're too dangerous to let live. By that point, however, the party are powerful enough to fend him off. As a variation on that theme, one of the PCs might really be key to Strahd's plot, but because of the vagueness of Madam Eva's prophecy he doesn't know which one. He can't risk destroying any of the PCs until he's ruled out their being the tool he needs. This would require making up a suitable prediction from Madam Eva, plus deciding what the prediction really refers to. The players should probably recieve the prophecy from Madam Eva themselves, so it doesn't come as a complete surprise why Strahd wants them alive. If you've got a skilled enough player for the task, here's another idea cribbed from I6: Strahd wants Ireena to love him willingly, but he realises that she could never love a slathering undead creature of the night. So he decides to take a new identity. Shortly after the party have dealt with the Lysaga Hill witches, Strahd has his minions abduct one of the male PCs - preferably an attractive human. The PC is taken to the castle, where Strahd casts a spell to polymorph the PC into a vampire with his own face. He himself takes on the form of the PC, and returns to the group, having "escaped" the castle. When the PC is abducted, take the player aside, tell them what's happened, and ask them to take on the role of Strahd posing as their character. Strahd's goal will be to get close to Ireene, ideally take her along with the party on their adventure, and try to woo her and impress her with feats of valour, while his minions carry out his plot in his absence. You as DM will play the PC trapped in the form of a vampire. Strahd won't attack the party during this time, since he's not actually Strahd. When he's discovered, he dispels the polymorph (and the spell on the PC as well, to prevent him from using his vampiric powers against him), and control switches back to the player. By that time things should be near the endgame. If the only player you trust enough to play Strahd is playing a female character, a halfling or otherwise someone unsuitable as a form for Strahd, then have them abducted as normal, but Strahd approaches the party in the form of a handsome male human of a class determined by the controlling player. You can present this to the other players as a temporary character for the controlling player while their normal PC is missing, to avoid suspicion. I think your ideas are great, but my players -really- like to stay in control of their charatcers, and thats a bit complex for them. While I do think its a great idea, it wouldn't work very well in my specific group. I may just have to hope that by the time Strahd realizes theyre a threat or they've outlived their usefullness they will be able to survive Strahd, or maybe even then after knowing theyre a threat he doesn't go full blast still untill they are an ultimate threat (they've got the sunsword and the holy symbol of ravenkind).
#6 smq May 27, 2011 16:16:48	Okay, I'm not beat yet. Substitute an NPC for the PC in the last scenario. Introduce him fairly early, and make sure he becomes fairly well known to the party. They don't have to like him or trust him, but they should have no reason to think he's a minion of Strahd or another power - make sure he has an apparent reason for existing in the campaign. He should, of course, be handsome and potentially charming, and should probably have some class levels. When Strahd switches places with the NPC, the most obvious change in his behaviour is that he starts courting Ireena. He might also become colder or ruder to the party, and start to shun their company, but if they were already on cool terms with him then they probably won't think much of that. He starts to hang around Ireena all the time, and when the party go away he volunteers to stay and protect her. The real NPC, meanwhile, is in the form of Strahd, and the party eventually encounter him in the castle. Once he's convinced them of the truth of the situation, they all rush to save Ireena. When they encounter Strahd, he dismisses the spell, and the now human NPC (who I'm picturing as an unlikable fop) runs away, the party manage to drive Strahd off or escape with Ireena, and the rest of the plot proceeds as normal.
#7 arcana_zero May 27, 2011 21:43:07	The solution that I was bouncing around in my head, more simpler than yours, is this: I'm combining essentially three of the secondary motives given for Strahd within the 3.5 Expedition to Castle Ravenloft: Undead Legions, Brook No Rival, and Untamed Allies. As such, the PCs will be brought to Barovia (by Strahd) to destroy the Lysaga Hill witches (and possibly Madam Eva with them). The letter he sends out to the PCs will be meant to make it appear as if the witches of Lysaga Hill are responsible for the undead plague, werewolf attacks, and the illness/nightmares that Ireena is subjected to. While pondering "Well, why would Strahd need the PCs to destroy the witches, isn't Strahd a super bad ass?". The solution to this is that the hag coven/Lysaga Hill witches who do actually seek to supplant Strahd but are not responible for the undead plague have aquired a ritual and stolen the bones of a Saint to create a ward for the entrance of their lair that will hedge out evil - while this Traps most of the witches within their lair while they summon whatever demon lord i think they worship, it keeps Strahd out - untill he tricks the PCs into doing his dirty work for him. Hopefully by the time the PCs deal with the zombies in Barovia, the werewolves and the witches, and finally realize Strahd is the BBEG they will be of sufficient level to be able to take on the castle, and sustain several Strahd attacks before finally putting him to rest. Whatcha think?
#8 smq May 28, 2011 4:05:50	I'd guessed you must be using aspects of Brook No Rival from what you said about Lysaga Hill. I think it should work well. The werewolf plot and the witch plot together should be enough to pad out until near the end of the campaign. I especially like the idea of the witches sealing themselves inside their lair to prevent Strahd from interfering. Presumably their demon has some way of destroying the ward when it's time for him to leave? Only a couple of concerns. First, Ravenloft being what it is and players being what they are, there's a strong chance they'll go off-track from the course Strahd has set for them and go poking around in his business. Strahd will need a way to reliably manipulate them back onto course before they can stumble over one of his weaknesses. The other thing is very minor: the narrative demands that the players deal with the werewolves first, and then the witches. The other way around would be anticlimactic. But according to the 3E module, Strahd gets super pissed if the players kill all the werewolves, because he wanted them as servants. He needs to take that more in his stride, so that he doesn't flip out and murder the party. Maybe the werewolves were something of a thorn in his side, and he was planning on killing them anyway if he couldn't convert them to his service. Other than those two minor things, I think it'll go well. The business with the Lysaga Hill witches provides a very nice false ending, just before the players realise the real threat.