Adding a diehard feat/ability - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Adding a diehard feat/ability

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
kingspoom
Jun 29, 2008 19:17:45 With the introduction of the ability of PCs to kill or knock enemies unconscious at will, after they have dropped them, I've been looking for a way to make sure my enemies die or force their capture. So I was thinking:

Diehard
You can remain conscious after attacks that would fell others.
Prerequisite: Trained in Endurance
Benefit: When reduced to 0 hit points or less, you may choose to stay conscious and take actions as normal or fall unconscious as normal. If you choose to fall unconscious, you may still roll your death saving throw, but you no longer suffer negative effects of rolling less than 10. If you choose to remain conscious, you may act as normal. However, you take 1 point of damage after each standard action you complete while at or under 0 hit points. You may choose to fall unconscious at any time during your turn or any time after you take damage. If you are reduced to your bloodied value expressed as a negative number, you die instantly.

I'm wondering, however, if it would affect combat too much. Bloodied values can get quite large. I didn't see anything else, RAW, that would let my enemies not be knocked unconscious by the PCs. If there's something in the monster manual I missed, tell me about it.
#2
kouk
Jun 29, 2008 22:19:21 Bad guys don't get feats unless you build them like PCs.

What's the problem though exactly? You think the party talks to hostages too much? If they keep people alive to turn in to the proper authorities, that is the kind of game they want. Try monsters which wouldn't matter whether they were captured or not: a slime won't mend his ways or provide much in the way of useful information for instance, nor does anyone in town particularly want to see it serve time.
#3
kingspoom
Jun 30, 2008 22:07:12
What's the problem though exactly? You think the party talks to hostages too much? If they keep people alive to turn in to the proper authorities, that is the kind of game they want. Try monsters which wouldn't matter whether they were captured or not: a slime won't mend his ways or provide much in the way of useful information for instance, nor does anyone in town particularly want to see it serve time.

The problem is there is no chance for enemies to die if they want to keep them alive, and the choice is made after the fact with no consequences on their course of action (it's a dominated choice). I was actually surprised that no form of diehard was in the book because it's such a trope. My guess is that it would step on the tactical choice of when to use a second wind, or what feat to take if you're a healer.

Regardless, the game just won't run with non-capturable enemies at the forefront; I'm running a player-driven campaign. The things that the players want to see are very human things; things that require speaking opponents. Variety is the key, and one component I am missing is enemies that refuse to lay down in the middle of a fight. I think it adds to the combat. I'm all for giving them what they want, but always getting what you want can be lame.

Summary: I'm just looking for the problems I would encounter with the proposed ability.
#4
kouk
Jul 01, 2008 1:34:08 As it's written, I think a fight would just drag on forever. You are basically giving all enemies (with that ability at least) 1.5x hit points.

Other tacks are to just have NPCs who genuinely don't know anything, or are specially trained to resist interrogation (cult members, special agents), or kill themselves when they see the fight is lost (or maybe they self-destruct with magic). Perhaps biting their own tongues and committing suicide if they are captured.

Or, as a simple fix, you could just disallow such ease with knocking people out. You could reinstate nonlethal damage like from 3.5, making it more of a hassle.
#5
Saric
Jul 01, 2008 2:55:43
With the introduction of the ability of PCs to kill or knock enemies unconscious at will, after they have dropped them, I've been looking for a way to make sure my enemies die or force their capture. So I was thinking:

Diehard
You can remain conscious after attacks that would fell others.
Prerequisite: Trained in Endurance
Benefit: When reduced to 0 hit points or less, you may choose to stay conscious and take actions as normal or fall unconscious as normal. If you choose to fall unconscious, you may still roll your death saving throw, but you no longer suffer negative effects of rolling less than 10. If you choose to remain conscious, you may act as normal. However, you take 1 point of damage after each standard action you complete while at or under 0 hit points. You may choose to fall unconscious at any time during your turn or any time after you take damage. If you are reduced to your bloodied value expressed as a negative number, you die instantly.

I'm wondering, however, if it would affect combat too much. Bloodied values can get quite large. I didn't see anything else, RAW, that would let my enemies not be knocked unconscious by the PCs. If there's something in the monster manual I missed, tell me about it.

Too overpowered. The way I did it in my games is that you can continue fighting when below 0 hp but if you chose to do, any strenuous activity such as attacking makes you automatically fail your death or dying roll. Thus the person who's using diehard will last a maximum of 3 rounds, or his bloodied value in negatives.
#6
kingspoom
Jul 01, 2008 6:45:17
Other tacks are to just have NPCs who genuinely don't know anything, or are specially trained to resist interrogation (cult members, special agents), or kill themselves when they see the fight is lost (or maybe they self-destruct with magic). Perhaps biting their own tongues and committing suicide if they are captured.

Yeah, those are a part of the variety I was talking about. Most of those things occur after they are captured, and I think it might be seen as a... I can't think of the name, but a bad thing. Some enemies, naturally, will still be captured and give information. However, I think this ability would fit demons well and other particularly determined opponents.
Too overpowered. The way I did it in my games is that you can continue fighting when below 0 hp but if you chose to do, any strenuous activity such as attacking makes you automatically fail your death or dying roll. Thus the person who's using diehard will last a maximum of 3 rounds, or his bloodied value in negatives.

Well, that certainly sounds interesting. It'd keep a limit on things going forever with higher hp monsters.

Anyone else?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kingspoom Jun 29, 2008 19:17:45	With the introduction of the ability of PCs to kill or knock enemies unconscious at will, after they have dropped them, I've been looking for a way to make sure my enemies die or force their capture. So I was thinking: Diehard You can remain conscious after attacks that would fell others. Prerequisite: Trained in Endurance Benefit: When reduced to 0 hit points or less, you may choose to stay conscious and take actions as normal or fall unconscious as normal. If you choose to fall unconscious, you may still roll your death saving throw, but you no longer suffer negative effects of rolling less than 10. If you choose to remain conscious, you may act as normal. However, you take 1 point of damage after each standard action you complete while at or under 0 hit points. You may choose to fall unconscious at any time during your turn or any time after you take damage. If you are reduced to your bloodied value expressed as a negative number, you die instantly. I'm wondering, however, if it would affect combat too much. Bloodied values can get quite large. I didn't see anything else, RAW, that would let my enemies not be knocked unconscious by the PCs. If there's something in the monster manual I missed, tell me about it.
#2 kouk Jun 29, 2008 22:19:21	Bad guys don't get feats unless you build them like PCs. What's the problem though exactly? You think the party talks to hostages too much? If they keep people alive to turn in to the proper authorities, that is the kind of game they want. Try monsters which wouldn't matter whether they were captured or not: a slime won't mend his ways or provide much in the way of useful information for instance, nor does anyone in town particularly want to see it serve time.
#3 kingspoom Jun 30, 2008 22:07:12	What's the problem though exactly? You think the party talks to hostages too much? If they keep people alive to turn in to the proper authorities, that is the kind of game they want. Try monsters which wouldn't matter whether they were captured or not: a slime won't mend his ways or provide much in the way of useful information for instance, nor does anyone in town particularly want to see it serve time. The problem is there is no chance for enemies to die if they want to keep them alive, and the choice is made after the fact with no consequences on their course of action (it's a dominated choice). I was actually surprised that no form of diehard was in the book because it's such a trope. My guess is that it would step on the tactical choice of when to use a second wind, or what feat to take if you're a healer. Regardless, the game just won't run with non-capturable enemies at the forefront; I'm running a player-driven campaign. The things that the players want to see are very human things; things that require speaking opponents. Variety is the key, and one component I am missing is enemies that refuse to lay down in the middle of a fight. I think it adds to the combat. I'm all for giving them what they want, but always getting what you want can be lame. Summary: I'm just looking for the problems I would encounter with the proposed ability.
#4 kouk Jul 01, 2008 1:34:08	As it's written, I think a fight would just drag on forever. You are basically giving all enemies (with that ability at least) 1.5x hit points. Other tacks are to just have NPCs who genuinely don't know anything, or are specially trained to resist interrogation (cult members, special agents), or kill themselves when they see the fight is lost (or maybe they self-destruct with magic). Perhaps biting their own tongues and committing suicide if they are captured. Or, as a simple fix, you could just disallow such ease with knocking people out. You could reinstate nonlethal damage like from 3.5, making it more of a hassle.
#5 Saric Jul 01, 2008 2:55:43	With the introduction of the ability of PCs to kill or knock enemies unconscious at will, after they have dropped them, I've been looking for a way to make sure my enemies die or force their capture. So I was thinking: Diehard You can remain conscious after attacks that would fell others. Prerequisite: Trained in Endurance Benefit: When reduced to 0 hit points or less, you may choose to stay conscious and take actions as normal or fall unconscious as normal. If you choose to fall unconscious, you may still roll your death saving throw, but you no longer suffer negative effects of rolling less than 10. If you choose to remain conscious, you may act as normal. However, you take 1 point of damage after each standard action you complete while at or under 0 hit points. You may choose to fall unconscious at any time during your turn or any time after you take damage. If you are reduced to your bloodied value expressed as a negative number, you die instantly. I'm wondering, however, if it would affect combat too much. Bloodied values can get quite large. I didn't see anything else, RAW, that would let my enemies not be knocked unconscious by the PCs. If there's something in the monster manual I missed, tell me about it. Too overpowered. The way I did it in my games is that you can continue fighting when below 0 hp but if you chose to do, any strenuous activity such as attacking makes you automatically fail your death or dying roll. Thus the person who's using diehard will last a maximum of 3 rounds, or his bloodied value in negatives.
#6 kingspoom Jul 01, 2008 6:45:17	Other tacks are to just have NPCs who genuinely don't know anything, or are specially trained to resist interrogation (cult members, special agents), or kill themselves when they see the fight is lost (or maybe they self-destruct with magic). Perhaps biting their own tongues and committing suicide if they are captured. Yeah, those are a part of the variety I was talking about. Most of those things occur after they are captured, and I think it might be seen as a... I can't think of the name, but a bad thing. Some enemies, naturally, will still be captured and give information. However, I think this ability would fit demons well and other particularly determined opponents. Too overpowered. The way I did it in my games is that you can continue fighting when below 0 hp but if you chose to do, any strenuous activity such as attacking makes you automatically fail your death or dying roll. Thus the person who's using diehard will last a maximum of 3 rounds, or his bloodied value in negatives. Well, that certainly sounds interesting. It'd keep a limit on things going forever with higher hp monsters. Anyone else?