Might set some limitations; such as size, small or medium creatures only, or basic or At-Will attacks only.
Also, any potential problems with adding Helpless to the Stunned condition?
I realize that Stunned is already the worst condition, but considering what it is supposed to represent, I don't think it goes far enough. "succumbing to a deadly poison..being completely paralyzed..." etc (Rules Compendium pg. 234). It seems to me that they just wanted to make it more player friendly, probably to avoid abuse. I would argue that any creature that can't take actions, not even free one's is Helpless. Yes, this would make creatures that cause PC's to be Stunned potential PC killers.
My intent isn't to beat the snot out of my players, I already do that enough.
Putting Helpless on Stunned seems extremely powerful, especially on later levels, since there are many ways to accomplish stunning by that point. Imagine fighting a (supposedly) difficult solo monster, and everyone knows that stunning causes helpless. Once 1 person gets a stun off, that solo is as good as dead since they'll (or at least I would) do their best to keep it stunned by cycling through all their stunning powers and any of those hits will be automatic crits too. I really doubt anything will survive.
Also, (not part of the issue, but) I disagree that Stunned is the worst condition. I think Dominated gets that award. Well, aside from Unconscious, or Dead, or... well, you get my point.
I appreciate your comments, but I'm not really looking for a work around. Just wondering if there are any potential pitfalls, or mechanical exploits that I might be missing. Still not sure if I want to make this a standard part of the game, or perhaps a feat for characters trained in Stealth.
I realize that Stunned is already the worst condition, but considering what it is supposed to represent, I don't think it goes far enough. "succumbing to a deadly poison..being completely paralyzed..." etc (Rules Compendium pg. 234). It seems to me that they just wanted to make it more player friendly, probably to avoid abuse. I would argue that any creature that can't take actions, not even free one's is Helpless. Yes, this would make creatures that cause PC's to be Stunned potential PC killers.
My intent isn't to beat the snot out of my players, I already do that enough.
Actually, a Helpless creature can still take actions. You USUALLY can't because the primary way one becomes Helpless is to be Unconscious. But the Helpless condition itself says nothing about the kind of actions you can take.
I think that adding Helpless to Surprise greatly favors ranged combat. Considering you only get 1 action during the surprise round, those who can hit enemies without needing to get close can easily make use of that helpless situation. You'll get way more sniping than you will throat-slitting.
Putting Helpless on Stunned seems extremely powerful, especially on later levels, since there are many ways to accomplish stunning by that point. Imagine fighting a (supposedly) difficult solo monster, and everyone knows that stunning causes helpless. Once 1 person gets a stun off, that solo is as good as dead since they'll (or at least I would) do their best to keep it stunned by cycling through all their stunning powers and any of those hits will be automatic crits too. I really doubt anything will survive.
Also, (not part of the issue, but) I disagree that Stunned is the worst condition. I think Dominated gets that award. Well, aside from Unconscious, or Dead, or... well, you get my point.
The Coup de Grace requires you to be adjacent to the target. This rules out ranged attacks unless you are standing next to the target, which while possible is kind of odd to picture. Though I wouldn't be against giving out this power to ranged characters with a feat.
Bushwacker - You can preform a Coup de Grace against a Helpless target that is within short range of your ranged weapon.
As for throwing solo monsters in the Stun Cycle, my players do that sort of thing anyway. Which is why I am here asking questions before I change any rules, because they will find a way to abuse it if they can. As best as I can determine, it would allow them to do max damage to the stunned creature (as you pointed out), and if they do enough damage in a single hit, greater than it's bloodied value, to kill it outright. What I need to do is figure out maximum potential damage output for striker classes to see if they could pull this off, how often and against what level creatures etc.
I spent an hour or so today looking over creatures that can stun PC's and figuring out their max damages with a single hit. Though I haven't looked at every creature (as there are 400+), what I have looked at looks as though a creature 4 or 5 levels higher than the PC's should be able to kill weaker PC's with a coup de grace. Tougher character, like defenders should be able to survive without getting killed outright, but they do take max damage. As the PC's levels start to even out with the Solo Monsters level, it becomes less of a problem, and becomes increasingly less of a problem as the PC's level up in general, by epic tier, it seems to be a non-issue. Again this is just my preliminary and cursory look at things.
As for the Dominated condition, it only sucks when you are a player. It's rather fun as a DM and viscious, especially when the party Rogue who crits on a 16-20 gets dominated, and does 60+ points of damage with a basic At-Will attack. You get to watch everyone scatter like cockroaches.
I appreciate your comments, but I'm not really looking for a work around. Just wondering if there are any potential pitfalls, or mechanical exploits that I might be missing. Still not sure if I want to make this a standard part of the game, or perhaps a feat for characters trained in Stealth.
I realize that Stunned is already the worst condition, but considering what it is supposed to represent, I don't think it goes far enough. "succumbing to a deadly poison..being completely paralyzed..." etc (Rules Compendium pg. 234). It seems to me that they just wanted to make it more player friendly, probably to avoid abuse. I would argue that any creature that can't take actions, not even free one's is Helpless. Yes, this would make creatures that cause PC's to be Stunned potential PC killers.
My intent isn't to beat the snot out of my players, I already do that enough.
Actually, a Helpless creature can still take actions. You USUALLY can't because the primary way one becomes Helpless is to be Unconscious. But the Helpless condition itself says nothing about the kind of actions you can take.
I never said that Helpless creatures couldn't take actions, though it is certainly implied, mainly because it is a rider on other conditions, and not really a condition unto itself, but a precondition for a coup de grace. I would love an example of an action a Helpless creature could take, other than drooling
. I was simply saying that creatures that can't take actions because of conditions imposed on them, such as Stunned or Surprised (or even Petrified), should also be considered Helpless. During a suprise round the target is still able to try and defend against attacks just does not have the time to fully react to the attack so I would not make suprised foes helpless simply becouse they are not helpless, now targets attacked before they are even aware that the attacker is there could happen before a suprise round in which case they could be concidered helpless.
As for stunned targets, if it can't take actions including free actions immidiate reactions or any other form of action that does sound like it is defenceless which would constitute helpless state. I can't seam to find any section that explains helpless more then saying a helpless target is defenceless, though possibly has room for abuse I could see the ehlpless state being applied to stunned or paralysed but not dazed or any lesser version of it since the base line is they must be unable to act. This does make stunner prety powerfull effect though. perhaps a coupe de grace attack ends the stunned effect so they at least can't stack these attacks up
A surprise round would basically determine the outcome of the battle; if the monsters get one you'll probably lose and if the party gets one, half the monsters won't live through it.