Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 pheonixiv Jul 25, 2009 22:54:49	A number of Simple Weapons do not get much use. As such I thought it would be neat to introduce Advanced Weapon Training; Advanced Weapon Training allows you to gain bonuses when using Simple Melee Weapons that increases them up to Superior Melee Weapon status. Basically it’s like taking Weapon Proficiency in a Superior Weapon, but instead you get to use a Simple Weapon (and face it, Scythes are awesome.) I've tried to keep the 'advanced simple weapons' on par with similar Superior weapons, but give them their own extra bonases, like how the Club and Greatclub have the highest damage dice, but no properties, and soforth. There's no AWT for the Dagger, because Rogues already get RWT with it and teh Daggermaster PP is plenty awesome regardless, and there's no AWT for the Quarterstaff, as it already has a weapon training feat. Advanced Weapon Training (Club) Prerequisite: Proficient with Club Benefit: When you wield a Club your weapon damage dice increases by four size categories (2d6 for a medium Club). Advanced Weapon Training (Javelin) Prerequisite: Proficient with Javelin Benefit: When you wield a Javelin its proficiency bonus increases to +3 and it gains the Brutal 1 property. Advanced Weapon Training (Mace) Prerequisite: Proficient with Mace Benefit: When you wield a Mace your weapon damage dice increases by one size category and it gains the Brutal 2 property. Advanced Weapon Training (Sickle) Prerequisite: Proficient with Sickle Benefit: When you wield a Sickle it gains the High Crit and Brutal 1 properties. Advanced Weapon Training (Spear) Prerequisite: Proficient with Spear Benefit: When you wield a Spear it gains the Brutal 2 and Defensive properties. Advanced Weapon Training (Greatclub) Prerequisite: Proficient with Greatclub Benefit: When you wield a Greatclub your weapon damage dice increases by four size categories (2d8 for a medium Greatclub). Advanced Weapon Training (Morningstar) Prerequisite: Proficient with Morningstar Benefit: When you wield a Morningstar it gains the Brutal 3 property. Advanced Weapon Training (Scythe) Prerequisite: Proficient with Scythe Benefit: When you wield a Scythe it gains the Brutal 1 and High Crit properties and you gain a +1 bonus to AC. Thoughts?
#2 nixy Jul 25, 2009 23:29:14	Kind of a cool concept, but kind of horribly unbalanced as implemented; just off the top of my head, a one-handed 2d6 weapon is kind of crazy, as is a javelin that's a drow long knife but brutal 1 and longer ranged. Also, the defensive property just flat-out doesn't work on two-handed weapons, look it up :P The main problem with this is that mechnically there's either no point to superior weapons, or no point to advanced weapon training. You might as well invent a line of superior weapons called "exotic scythe", etc., and have a better idea of how to balance them.
#3 pheonixiv Jul 25, 2009 23:35:58	Why does this make superior weapons pointless? You spend a feat to get a superior weapon, or you spend a feat to get an advanced simple weapon. As i said, i've tried to keep the advanced simple weapons on par with superior weapons, but different, the Club is an excellent example; it's the same 'level' as the Waraxe; same to-hit bonus, but it loses the Versatile property in exchange for an increased damage dice size. The Drow Long Knife is probably still one-up on the Javalin, as it's a Heavy Blade, in fact i think it's the only thrown Heavy Blade, and the Heavy Blade weapon group gets alot of awesome feats. As for the Defensive thing, yeah, didn't notice that. Fixed.
#4 nixy Jul 25, 2009 23:55:02	Why does this make superior weapons pointless? You spend a feat to get a superior weapon, or you spend a feat to get an advanced simple weapon. What I mean is that Advanced Weapon Training doesn't really accomplish anything adding cooler superior weapons wouldn't. *shrug* Don't get me wrong, I kind of like the idea, and the implementation isn't half bad. I guess I'm just not that attached to the simple weapon category. As i said, i've tried to keep the advanced simple weapons on par with superior weapons, but different, the Club is an excellent example; it's the same 'level' as the Waraxe; same to-hit bonus, but it loses the Versatile property in exchange for an increased damage dice size. Giving up the Versatile property for an increase from 1d12 to 2d6 is an ridiculously amazing tradeoff; if I wanted a two-handed weapon I'd have trained a two-handed weapon, and the Versatile property honestly feels like it has no purpose except to mark what weapons small characters can't use one-handed. I guess the Waraxe gets Deadly Axe, though. The Drow Long Knife is probably still one-up on the Javalin, as it's a Heavy Blade, in fact i think it's the only thrown Heavy Blade, and the Heavy Blade weapon group gets alot of awesome feats. Like what? Heavy Blade Opportunity is overrated for most builds, especially those that really profit from a heavy thrown weapon (and thus need Strength anyway). Spears (as a group) get stuff like Spear Push. Also, the spear (weapon, not group) is a monk implement. Greatclub is terrifying too. Someone is going to play a bugbear (or take Eternal Defender, or find some other way to raise its damage die) and run around with something that is better than rolling a d20 for damage. Even without oversizing it, the crits... oh, the crits... /shudder
#5 pheonixiv Jul 26, 2009 0:11:10	Greatclub is literally just a Mordenkrad with Brutal 1 traded for a damage increase. As for the normal Club, the Craghammer is potentially better than it; 2d6 is mechanically identical to 1d12 brutal 1, which has the same average damage as 1d10 brutal 2 (1d12 brutal 1 and 1d10 brutal 2 are the same 'points wise' as well, both are viable for a Superior weapon.) and the Craghammer has 1d10 brutal 2 (so damage is 3 - 10, average 7.5 per [W] Dice. Club is 2 - 12, average 7 per [W] Dice.) and gets Versatile on top, making the Craghammer better than the Club on it's own. Of course, the second dice comes into it's own if you get another item that adds brutal (i think there's gloves that do it), Brutal 1 to the Club raises the damage to 4 - 12, average 9, wheras Brutal 3 on the Craghammer raises it to 4 - 10, average 8.5, making the Craghammer slightly worse than the Club if used in conjunction with an item that adds Brutal, the Craghammer still gets Versatile though. The Heavy Blade group in general seems to suffer from being sub-par, the Fullblade for example is +3, d12, High Crit, and that just plain does not match up to the Execution Axe, which is +2, D12, High Crit and brutal 2. I will admit though that i didn't consider the Drow Long Knife at the time of creating these feats. As for the Greatclub, it has the same average damage as the Mordenkrad. On it's own it has a damage range of 2 - 16, average damage of 9. The Mordernkrad with it's 2d6 Brutal 1 is a damage range of 4 - 12, average damage 9. By getting the Greatclub, you're sacrificing a higher minimum damage for a higher maximum damage. The average damage remains identical, which means the Greatclub is indeed an improvement when critting, but is also more unpredictable. The Execution Axe is also better in a crit; it does 15 - 20 damage, wheras the Greatclub does a straight 16, although the Greatclub is better in multi [W] dice crits. An Oversized Greatclub is 2 - 20, avg 11, Oversized Mordenkrad is 4 - 16, avg 11, an Oversized Execution Axe is 6 - 12, avg 11. (But gets 6 - 12, 12 - 24 or 18 - 36 extra damage on a Crit, depending on tier.) And yeah, AWT doesn't accomplish anything that new superior weapons wouldn't, but i'd rather see the Simple Weapons actually get some use than have to try and come up with new awesome weapons. Actually, it has just occured to me that the Club and Mace AWT makes the Ruthless Ruffian seriously IMBA. Hmm.
#6 nixy Jul 26, 2009 10:02:46	As for the normal Club, the Craghammer is potentially better than it; 2d6 is mechanically identical to 1d12 brutal 1 Strictly speaking, no, the latter is linearly distributed, but it's not really an issue. which has the same average damage as 1d10 brutal 2 1d10 brutal 2 is 3-10 damage, or an average of 6.5. 1d12 brutal 1 (or 2d6) is 2-12 damage, or an average of 7. Both 2d6 and 1d12 brutal 1 also crit harder than 1d10 brutal 2. And as I've already said, versatile sucks xD (unless you're a swordmage whose DM is letting you cheese handedness-switching as a free action). By getting the Greatclub, you're sacrificing a higher minimum damage for a higher maximum damage. The average damage remains identical, which means the Greatclub is indeed an improvement when critting, but is also more unpredictable. The loss of 2 points on minimum damage is nothing if the average damage is the same and the critical hit damage is 4 points higher per [W]. This is kind of unfair, though, since the real point of a mordenkrad is Hammer Rhythm. The Execution Axe is also better in a crit; it does 15 - 20 damage, wheras the Greatclub does a straight 16, although the Greatclub is better in multi [W] dice crits. Ok, this I'll give you (the Execution Axe is 15-24 on a crit though). Oversized Mordenkrad is 4 - 16, avg 11 Average 10. an Oversized Execution Axe is 6 - 12, avg 11. Average 9, and the average damage on a crit (for 1[W] at heroic tier, at least) is 12+9=21, which is only 1 point ahead of the greatclub (doesn't make up for average damage being 2 points smaller) and falls behind when looking at powers bigger than 1[W].
#7 pheonixiv Jul 26, 2009 19:43:51	Ok, so my averages were all over the place :P I still stand by my judgement that the weapons are approximately balanced, just more extreme. --EDIT-- Also, i see where i made my error; brutal on a 2 dice weapon is an increase in average damage of 1, but it's only 0.5 on a single dice weapon.
#8 ff6shadow Jul 27, 2009 7:49:20	I think you should drop the damage die on the clubs at least 1 each. And it's insane with ruthless ruffians.
#9 pheonixiv Jul 27, 2009 7:55:10	If i draw the damage die on the clubs then they become sub-par compared to other superior weapons, it is indeed insane with ruthless ruffians though, need to think of a way to deal with that.
#10 AbdulAlhazred Jul 27, 2009 9:04:19	I like the concept. It is essentially an alternative to fluffing your greatclub as a mordenkrad (for example) so you can have your big arsed goliath running around cocking people with his caveman weapon. Not a bad idea really. I guess another way to work this would be to simply do away with at least some of the superior weapons and have feats that just bumped up the basic weapons and some military ones to do the same stuff. It would maybe be a bit tricky WRT a few things like DWT, but overall minimal effect. Dunno what you'll do about the Ruthless Ruffian. Brains everywhere!
#11 pheonixiv Jul 27, 2009 19:30:33	Maybe Prerequisite: Not Ruthless Ruffian :P If all else fails it might be worth doing weapon multiclass feats instead of just standard weapon boost feats.
#12 AbdulAlhazred Jul 28, 2009 7:04:32	Maybe Prerequisite: Not Ruthless Ruffian :P If all else fails it might be worth doing weapon multiclass feats instead of just standard weapon boost feats. You could, but at that point why would anyone take them? They'd just use the superior weapon instead. And if you make a MC feat chain that makes a club better than anything else, then one would have to wonder why superior weapons were invented anyway. Obviously in the real world most of the D&D superior weapons simply don't exist and the basic and military weapons were the best weapons available to people. IMHO the main weapon group right now that is pretty lame is the mace, and I suspect the Ruthless Ruffian is pretty much responsible for that. Any mace buffing feat you can invent is going to be problematic WRT them. I'd say a MC feat path for the mace weapon group with some fairly significant stat requirements designed to make it hard for an RR to make much use out of would be cool. Something along the same lines for picks too. And the sling could use a little love as well.
#13 pheonixiv Jul 28, 2009 7:52:32	Ovbiously the tradeoff for multiclass feat chains is that it costs you your multiclass slot. Sling would definitely be a prime candidate for a AWT, forgot about that. Hmm...
#14 AbdulAlhazred Jul 29, 2009 7:26:05	Ovbiously the tradeoff for multiclass feat chains is that it costs you your multiclass slot. Sling would definitely be a prime candidate for a AWT, forgot about that. Hmm... Yeah, I was thinking about it last night. Some things you could do with a sling... Hurl non-ammo versions of alchemy items. Toss them over obstructions (indirect fire). Hit multiple targets with one shot (goofy but in the context of D&D why not). Still haven't come up with anything that seems super compelling, but no doubt some pretty good stuff could be developed. Maybe some interesting sling-only items too.
#15 pheonixiv Jul 29, 2009 8:03:08	Ooh, i just had an idea! Sling Training [Multiclass Sling] Prerequisites: Strength 13, any martial class Benefit: You can use your strength modifier instead of your dexterity modifier when making attack and damage rolls with a sling. Additionally you may use a loaded sling as a melee weapon without expending ammunition and can reload a sling using only one hand. You also increase the sling's range to 15/30. Sling Novice Prerequisites: 4th level, Sling Training Benefit: You can swap one 3rd-level or higher encounter attack power you know for the ricochet shot attack power. Ricochet Shot Feat Power With a flick of your wrist you hurl a slingstone that ricochets from enemy to enemy. Encounter ✦ Weapon Standard Action Ranged weapon Requirement: You must be wielding a sling. Target: One creature Attack: Strength or Dexterity vs. AC Hit: 1[W] + Strength or Dexterity modifier damage, make a secondary attack against one enemy within 15 squares of the first target. Trace line of sight and line of effect from the first target's square, not your own. 11th Level: Increase the damage to 2[W]. 21st Level: Increase the damage to 3[W]. Secondary Attack: Strength or Dexterity vs. AC Hit: 1[W] damage. Make a tertiary attack against one enemy within 15 squares of the second target. Trace line of sight and line of effect from the second target's square, not your own. Tertiary Attack: Strength or Dexterity vs. AC Hit: Strength or Dexterity modifier damage. Sling Expert Prerequisites: 8th level, Sling Training Benefit: You can swap one 6th-level or higher utility power you know for the lob rocks utility power. Lob Rocks Feat Power With a practiced eye you lob your attacks up and over your enemies. At-Will Free Action Personal Requirement: You must be wielding a sling. Effect: Use this power when you make an attack with a sling. Your attack ignores any cover you can trace a clear ballistic path over the top of (enemies, low walls etc.) Special: If you know this power you may throw non-ammunition alchemical items with a sling. Treat this as attacking with the alchemical item as normal, but use the sling's range instead of the item's range. Sling Specialist Prerequisites: 10th level, Sling Training Benefit: You can swap one 9th-level or higher daily attack power you know for the Scattershot attack power. Scattershot Feat Power You hurl a fistful of razor sharp shrapnel at your enemies. Daily ✦ Weapon Standard Action Area Burst 1 in 15 Requirement: You must be wielding a sling. Target: All creatures in Burst Attack: Strength or Dexterity +2 vs. AC Hit: 2[W] + Strength or Dexterity modifier damage. 15th Level: Increase the damage to 3[W]. 25th Level: Increase the damage to 4[W]. Effect: Until the end of the encounter the area of the burst is filled with razor sharp shards of shrapnel. It is difficult terrain and you may make the following attack any creature that enters a square filled with shrapnel (repeat the attack for each square it enters). Attack: Strength or Dexterity vs. Reflex Hit: 1[W] + Strength or Dexterity modifier damage and the target is slowed (save ends). A target that is already slowed instead takes 5 extra damage.
#16 AbdulAlhazred Jul 30, 2009 6:09:37	Hmmm, interesting. That would perhaps make using the sling more competitive with the HCB.
#17 pheonixiv Jul 30, 2009 7:10:56	Indeed, i don't think this feat chain would overpower Rogues, but it definitely makes the Sling an attractive option, especially that Daily. I like the Daily. Be great with some forced movement powers. Actually it's probably a bit overpowered with forced movement, might have to add a clause that you don't get any damage bonuses to the special attack roll apart from your Str or Dex modifier or something.
#18 Electricbee Jul 30, 2009 7:47:51	Might work better if you assign stat prereqs for the various weapons. Superior weapons exist because not everyone has the aptitude to train the basic weapons to their potential.
#19 Qube Jul 30, 2009 9:13:45	Very nice. balanced increases roleplay for players (sometimes you just WANT a character with a greatclub instead of a hammer) In short: IMO this is dragon magasine/... material One note though: its very important to note that 'Spear',... is the weapon, not the weapon group.
#20 NinjaPlease Jul 30, 2009 18:01:37	I actually like this idea for the roleplaying aspect of it. You're right, sometimes you do want to fight with a club, or a sling. :p I like this because it encourages uses for weapons that get overlooked a lot. I've never played in a party where someone is using a scythe....or a pick....or a trident. :P Seen plenty of great swords and battle axes though. lol If you get a second check out my Scout class I'm working on in the House Rules/Homebrew Forum. I am likewise trying to create a class that specializes in all these weapons I never see used. :p