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Adventure design: how many combats have minions?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
sevoo
Jul 02, 2010 11:03:43 When you're making a 4e adventure, how many combats have minions? Do you have a rule of thumb or a goal, or does it just shape up organically? When you're looking at someone else's adventures, what ratio do you like to see?

I'm putting together an adventure designed for 1st level characters, and I noticed I was putting minions in nearly every single combat. Looking at my encounter design over the last few months, I can see that I stick minions in lower-level encounters where putting a whole additional combatant would go beyond my XP budget for the encounter, and I suspect I've used them too often. I use them less-often in my higher-level encounters, and I suspect that I'm using them too-rarely.

I know that when I actually *run* these adventures, I'll fine-tune them for the party my players end up creating. So, getting the balance right isn't critical. But if I end up sharing these creations with anybody, I'd like to make sure I haven't made something thoroughly annoying.
#2
monstro
Jul 02, 2010 15:04:27 What are your minions doing?

For me, the big question concerns the ebb and flow of what a combat feels like. Minions help break up the monotony of two forces beating on each other, rock 'em sock 'em robots, until one of them falls. Minions help to let the players feel powerful, or if you're devious, make the combat a bit more complicated by making players choose squishy targets who have made themselves useful or elusive. So, the question of minions is really a question of what you want the combat to feel like.

I don't think its bad to use minions as spare change either, just so long as you understand what they're doing in there. If you use 1 minion just to kick around 50 points or something, then it comes off as a cheap tactic. The minion does 6 points of damage or something just because the characters were too busy dealing with real threats. Its sort of like making the characters take 6 points of damage every other round without a save--it's not horrible but the overall effect is irritation. If on the other hand, the little minion keeps trying to distract the characters so that the big baddie gets a chance at a stealth roll, that's interesting.

Going back to your question--I think level 1 is fine to have lots of minions precisely because you can't stock the combat with much other than level 1 monsters. Your choices regarding variety of power levels is kind of limited. At level 6, you can have 2 level 6 monsters hanging around with a bunch of level 3 monsters and its no big deal.
#3
sevoo
Jul 02, 2010 16:15:18
What are your minions doing?

This is definitely a useful lens, one that I hadn't really paid attention to.

Glancing back over the 1st level encounters I've put together recently, it looks like one of them had minions for story-purposes (four irate shopkeepers and their bodyguard -- if the shopkeepers weren't minions, the party would be in over their heads, and this is supposed to be an easy encounter). In another, I was clearly using the minions as a stand-in for interesting terrain, because when I took them out, I looked at the encounter and thought, "now how do I keep the PCs from charging right up to the artillery?" And in the third, the minions are there so that standing around dazed (by the non-minion's attack) might be less frustrating if they've got targets they can drop while they're afflicted.

For me, the big question concerns the ebb and flow of what a combat feels like. Minions help break up the monotony of two forces beating on each other, rock 'em sock 'em robots, until one of them falls. Minions help to let the players feel powerful, or if you're devious, make the combat a bit more complicated by making players choose squishy targets who have made themselves useful or elusive. So, the question of minions is really a question of what you want the combat to feel like.

Good point. If half of my combats have minions but they're always doing the same thing, that's going to be a lot more repetitive than if two-thirds of my combats have minions but they're fulfilling a variety of purposes.

Thanks!

#4
monstro
Jul 02, 2010 16:37:23 If it at all helps, I started this forum post a ways back community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... . There are some good ideas in there, I think.
#5
calm
Jul 14, 2010 15:30:09 I'd say 2 out of 3 fights. But I don't always make it clear which baddies are minions and which aren't. I'll describe them as weaker looking, smaller, etc., but not say "this guy and that guy and this one are the minons."

Make sure you have a fight every so often that doesn't have any minions, forcing the party to change tactics.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 sevoo Jul 02, 2010 11:03:43	When you're making a 4e adventure, how many combats have minions? Do you have a rule of thumb or a goal, or does it just shape up organically? When you're looking at someone else's adventures, what ratio do you like to see? I'm putting together an adventure designed for 1st level characters, and I noticed I was putting minions in nearly every single combat. Looking at my encounter design over the last few months, I can see that I stick minions in lower-level encounters where putting a whole additional combatant would go beyond my XP budget for the encounter, and I suspect I've used them too often. I use them less-often in my higher-level encounters, and I suspect that I'm using them too-rarely. I know that when I actually run these adventures, I'll fine-tune them for the party my players end up creating. So, getting the balance right isn't critical. But if I end up sharing these creations with anybody, I'd like to make sure I haven't made something thoroughly annoying.
#2 monstro Jul 02, 2010 15:04:27	What are your minions doing? For me, the big question concerns the ebb and flow of what a combat feels like. Minions help break up the monotony of two forces beating on each other, rock 'em sock 'em robots, until one of them falls. Minions help to let the players feel powerful, or if you're devious, make the combat a bit more complicated by making players choose squishy targets who have made themselves useful or elusive. So, the question of minions is really a question of what you want the combat to feel like. I don't think its bad to use minions as spare change either, just so long as you understand what they're doing in there. If you use 1 minion just to kick around 50 points or something, then it comes off as a cheap tactic. The minion does 6 points of damage or something just because the characters were too busy dealing with real threats. Its sort of like making the characters take 6 points of damage every other round without a save--it's not horrible but the overall effect is irritation. If on the other hand, the little minion keeps trying to distract the characters so that the big baddie gets a chance at a stealth roll, that's interesting. Going back to your question--I think level 1 is fine to have lots of minions precisely because you can't stock the combat with much other than level 1 monsters. Your choices regarding variety of power levels is kind of limited. At level 6, you can have 2 level 6 monsters hanging around with a bunch of level 3 monsters and its no big deal.
#3 sevoo Jul 02, 2010 16:15:18	What are your minions doing? This is definitely a useful lens, one that I hadn't really paid attention to. Glancing back over the 1st level encounters I've put together recently, it looks like one of them had minions for story-purposes (four irate shopkeepers and their bodyguard -- if the shopkeepers weren't minions, the party would be in over their heads, and this is supposed to be an easy encounter). In another, I was clearly using the minions as a stand-in for interesting terrain, because when I took them out, I looked at the encounter and thought, "now how do I keep the PCs from charging right up to the artillery?" And in the third, the minions are there so that standing around dazed (by the non-minion's attack) might be less frustrating if they've got targets they can drop while they're afflicted. For me, the big question concerns the ebb and flow of what a combat feels like. Minions help break up the monotony of two forces beating on each other, rock 'em sock 'em robots, until one of them falls. Minions help to let the players feel powerful, or if you're devious, make the combat a bit more complicated by making players choose squishy targets who have made themselves useful or elusive. So, the question of minions is really a question of what you want the combat to feel like. Good point. If half of my combats have minions but they're always doing the same thing, that's going to be a lot more repetitive than if two-thirds of my combats have minions but they're fulfilling a variety of purposes. Thanks!
#4 monstro Jul 02, 2010 16:37:23	If it at all helps, I started this forum post a ways back community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... . There are some good ideas in there, I think.
#5 calm Jul 14, 2010 15:30:09	I'd say 2 out of 3 fights. But I don't always make it clear which baddies are minions and which aren't. I'll describe them as weaker looking, smaller, etc., but not say "this guy and that guy and this one are the minons." Make sure you have a fight every so often that doesn't have any minions, forcing the party to change tactics.