Advice for new DM running H1? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Advice for new DM running H1?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
infernice
Apr 26, 2010 17:58:02 I'm a new DM and I'm starting a campaign this weekend with (hopefully) 5 players. I purchased Keep on the Shadowfell like a year and a half ago to run a game, but it never ended up happening. Now I plan on using as the starting point to my new game. I haven't finished reading through it yet, but I will before we start the dungeon.

Now, for those with experience running or playing it, is there anything specific I should know about before I run it? Quirks about it? Things to adjust/change completely? Problems to watch out for? Anything else?

Thanks for any help provided!
#2
razzanor
Apr 26, 2010 18:19:01
From a tactical standpoint, the Irontooth encounter can be extremely taxing on new players, especially if they haven't yet grasped the idea of proper daily power and action point usage. It has been known to be considered a "gotcha" moment, leading to certain players thinking the DM is out to get them or something foul like that - and for good reason.

Up 'till that point, they've been dealing with reasonable encounters for their level. Irontooth just throws all that out the window, completely annihilating all but the most prepared and tactically-advanced parties. Basically, unless you know Irontooth is coming, you're pretty much being treated to two encounters back-to-back without a short rest in-between.

I'd have to go ahead and say that if you have two leaders, it isn't so bad. But it's most likely that all your heals will be blown before Irontooth even comes out, and at that point, you either have to give up your standard action to second wind it (which is mostly useless at low levels), or outright flee, which will most likely end up killing some people due to opportunity attacks anyway.

My solution? Give each of them one potion. That adds 50 hit points to their total juice, and will certainly make it more bearable to deal with the "sneaky" extra encounter that they would have absolutely no way of foreseeing. I'm sure others also have other ideas, and I'm almost certain I've already been ninja'd while writing this post, so yeah. That's my two copper.
#3
Lineov
Apr 29, 2010 12:20:43 Get a "Wish List" from your players of Magical Items they want. For H1 They range from level 1 to 6 (the lv. 6 item being the final badguys straight up +2 magical dagger). Replace the magic items in the adventure with the magic items your players want. Especially if you plan on continuing through the campaign... your players will get sick of Lifedrinker weapons i guarantee it.

Razzanor is right. Irontooth is a tough sonnofagun.

Be sure to give the NPC's a voice... Nimazoran (for me) was a crackpot wizard that kept trying to play with electricity and failing. good for a comedic laugh or two.
#4
Neutronium_Dragon
Apr 30, 2010 15:43:09 The "Test Drive D&D" link on the main page will provide a download version of H1 that has been updated from the original print version. It still has some of the problems described above (like Irontooth), but many creatures and encounters were tweaked to run more smoothly.

One of the free Dungeon issues (I think it's 155, but if not it's within one or two of that) also has a few expansion encounters that can be added to the main adventure, and these will help the PCs to grow a bit before they hit the really tough stuff.
#5
archaeologist
May 01, 2010 2:57:12
The "Test Drive D&D" link on the main page will provide a download version of H1 that has been updated from the original print version. It still has some of the problems described above (like Irontooth), but many creatures and encounters were tweaked to run more smoothly.

One of the free Dungeon issues (I think it's 155, but if not it's within one or two of that) also has a few expansion encounters that can be added to the main adventure, and these will help the PCs to grow a bit before they hit the really tough stuff.

There is a pretty cool module that "upgrades" H1:Keep on the Shadowfell, and adds a number of new plot threads and encounters. Worth checking out as it adds more coherent RP'ing opportunities than the basic module.

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Worth looking at, if only to understand what you'll have to keep an eye on as a DM in the basic module. Namely, dealing with Irontooth, Party Levels, party fatigue once you're in the dungeon, and a lack of roleplaying towards the 3rd Act.

otherwise, all I can say is you'll have to play Irontooth by ear. I don't feel like I did a good job in my party's Irontooth encounter, so I plan to throw a "undead" Irontooth at the party for a round 2 near the end of the adventure. Fella wants his tooth back.
#6
mightywok
May 02, 2010 7:58:00
I only learned this after running through the module over a year ago: it's kinda setup to be run like a sandbox. Were I to run it again, I would read the module front-to-back about three times and then gives the players more information about everything, and letting them drive the flow of the narrative.
#7
grehnhewe
May 02, 2010 10:29:12 I ran this module when 4e came out for our group in order for us all to get used to the new rules.

I reccomend reading through the module thoroughly and be prepared for the PCs to accomplish the adventure in a variety different ways. A flow chart might be very handy for this.

Switching out some of the magic items for items that are catered toward the characters is a good idea.

The Irontooth encounter is hard, but my PCs did ok in it. I did however have to pull a couple punches in the final encounter or it could have caused some character death(s) or even a TPK.
#8
overwine
May 03, 2010 13:51:31
I had two or three players dead after Irontooth. I agree that some notice going into the fight would have been cooler RP wise. Maybe make a wanted poster in town for him or something. Make it a bigger deal in some way. That way if someone dies in the fight they can be raised with as a reward or buried as a hero.

Other characters/enemies/things I enjoyed using for more RP action were Sir Keegan(Solo Brute in the Keep), Douvan Stahl(from the Burial Site) and the Thing in the Portal(final fight).

Sir Keegan respected the paladin in our group after they succeeded in the skill challenge. His tomb acted as a safe haven when they needed to rest. After they had succeeded in destroying Kalarel, Keegan asked them to destroy him in order to rid the Keep of the last remaining taint.

Douvan Stahl returned to town and was a friendly face whenever they stopped back in. I made him into a retired adventurer and he could follow the PCs around and help if things go badly. I ended up using the freed goblin Splug in this same way after Douvan left.

The Thing in the Portal has an ability to grab Kalarel as soon as he hits 0 hp. I gave it a similar ability with the PCs. After they went to 0 and they were in reach it would grab on to them and slowly pull their body towards the portal. One PC actually got pulled through... never to be seen again Plot points!
#9
r3v4n
May 07, 2010 7:13:36
I ran H1 back when it first came out so I'm not familiar with the updated version. I recommend reading the Eberron and Forgotten Realms conversions and the H1 side treks from Dungeon 155. The NPCs, plot/adventure hooks, and story were pretty weak in H1. Even if you plan to run in the "points of light" setting, you should steal ideas from the conversions for making the NPCs and plot more interesting.

A lot depends on the players and the party they make. Mostly my advice is to just watch your players and try to focus on what they (and you) are enjoying. One trick I found is to secretly minion-ize (i.e. next direct hit will kill) some enemies if an encounter is going on too long. You might experiment with running some enemies in half-health-double-damage mode -- I found that made the encounters more exciting.

You may find the advice at www.thealexandrian.net/creations/keep-sh... helpful.

elevenfootpole.blogspot.com/2009/01/keep... is more analysis than advice, but it certainly will help you understand the issues you might want to fix.
#10
mushii
May 08, 2010 0:52:08 Our party ran this adventure a month back. Here's some notes and tips from that experience:

**SPOILER**

1) Understand what the main villain is trying to accomplish, and who the key players for and against that goal are. You should try to understand how Agrid, Balrog, The Warchief, Irontooth, Bairwin, Nimoran, Valthrun, and Sir Keegan are involved. Having this makes ad-hoc adjustments easier to handle.

2) Put some thought into Kalarel, his plot, and how you introduce him. I didn't, and in the end he seemed more a vaguely referenced obstacle to the quest rather than a true villain. Anyone who can command a small army, control undead, and possess a ritual powerful enough to merge realms deserves tension and build-up. Ideas include direct introduction, some horrid dream sequences (with surge losses!), or fanatics who would rather die screaming his name than surrender any information.

3) Splug the goblin can be a real fun NPC with re-use potential. I made ours with a bard template for added mischief.

4) Understand the mechanics of the Trap Room beforehand; there are three traps that are working in conjunction. You may want to test drive this one on your own to get a feel for how the interaction should work. I didn't, and the encounter wasn't as fun as it could have been.

5) This one isn't specific to H1, but adapting the environment to the inhabitants always adds an extra layer of spice (and options). There were some 'Slayers Guides to xMonster' back in v3.5 that had great tips for bringing monsters to life. In our game, goblins have no care for sanitation, which introduced Endurance checks to avoid nausea, terrain options, and disease. Hobgoblins on the other hand are extremely militant, so their areas had organized defense and escape plans.

6) As someone said earlier, some ideas what types of magic items your party is interested.

Hope this helps -
Mushii~
#11
infernice
May 09, 2010 16:11:51 Thanks for all of the responses. I haven't actually ran it yet, we got sidetracked during the first session, which now gives me much more time to look at the linked-to conversions and additions. I hope they're prove to be useful.

What is it that makes the Irontooth encounter especially hard? From reading it it doesn't seem terribly difficult. Is it just the fact that are a large number of enemies? Maybe I should playtest it myself beforehand to see...(but then I'd be biased and have previous knowledge and experience)
#12
r3v4n
May 09, 2010 19:54:05 Encounters A2 and A3 have a way of becoming 1 big encounter. Even if the PCs do take a short rest before A3, it's a level 6 encounter -- much harder than anything they have yet faced. The kobolds have lots of frustrating bonus shifting, mob attack can be devastating, the wyrmpriest is more trouble than players expect, and Irontooth himself is a beast.

Basically, if the players go in tactical, expecting a tough fight, they should be fine. Unfortunately, the module doesn't do much to warn them that A3 is radically harder than what they have faced so far. If anything, A2 lulls them into a false sense of security. By the time they realize things are serious, it may be too late.
#13
Neutronium_Dragon
May 09, 2010 21:27:05 One thing that can help is to have the first inside-the-cave wave scatter when Irontooth's wave arrives; they don't want to be in the way when he's swinging at things.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 infernice Apr 26, 2010 17:58:02	I'm a new DM and I'm starting a campaign this weekend with (hopefully) 5 players. I purchased Keep on the Shadowfell like a year and a half ago to run a game, but it never ended up happening. Now I plan on using as the starting point to my new game. I haven't finished reading through it yet, but I will before we start the dungeon. Now, for those with experience running or playing it, is there anything specific I should know about before I run it? Quirks about it? Things to adjust/change completely? Problems to watch out for? Anything else? Thanks for any help provided!
#2 razzanor Apr 26, 2010 18:19:01	From a tactical standpoint, the Irontooth encounter can be extremely taxing on new players, especially if they haven't yet grasped the idea of proper daily power and action point usage. It has been known to be considered a "gotcha" moment, leading to certain players thinking the DM is out to get them or something foul like that - and for good reason. Up 'till that point, they've been dealing with reasonable encounters for their level. Irontooth just throws all that out the window, completely annihilating all but the most prepared and tactically-advanced parties. Basically, unless you know Irontooth is coming, you're pretty much being treated to two encounters back-to-back without a short rest in-between. I'd have to go ahead and say that if you have two leaders, it isn't so bad. But it's most likely that all your heals will be blown before Irontooth even comes out, and at that point, you either have to give up your standard action to second wind it (which is mostly useless at low levels), or outright flee, which will most likely end up killing some people due to opportunity attacks anyway. My solution? Give each of them one potion. That adds 50 hit points to their total juice, and will certainly make it more bearable to deal with the "sneaky" extra encounter that they would have absolutely no way of foreseeing. I'm sure others also have other ideas, and I'm almost certain I've already been ninja'd while writing this post, so yeah. That's my two copper.
#3 Lineov Apr 29, 2010 12:20:43	Get a "Wish List" from your players of Magical Items they want. For H1 They range from level 1 to 6 (the lv. 6 item being the final badguys straight up +2 magical dagger). Replace the magic items in the adventure with the magic items your players want. Especially if you plan on continuing through the campaign... your players will get sick of Lifedrinker weapons i guarantee it. Razzanor is right. Irontooth is a tough sonnofagun. Be sure to give the NPC's a voice... Nimazoran (for me) was a crackpot wizard that kept trying to play with electricity and failing. good for a comedic laugh or two.
#4 Neutronium_Dragon Apr 30, 2010 15:43:09	The "Test Drive D&D" link on the main page will provide a download version of H1 that has been updated from the original print version. It still has some of the problems described above (like Irontooth), but many creatures and encounters were tweaked to run more smoothly. One of the free Dungeon issues (I think it's 155, but if not it's within one or two of that) also has a few expansion encounters that can be added to the main adventure, and these will help the PCs to grow a bit before they hit the really tough stuff.
#5 archaeologist May 01, 2010 2:57:12	The "Test Drive D&D" link on the main page will provide a download version of H1 that has been updated from the original print version. It still has some of the problems described above (like Irontooth), but many creatures and encounters were tweaked to run more smoothly. One of the free Dungeon issues (I think it's 155, but if not it's within one or two of that) also has a few expansion encounters that can be added to the main adventure, and these will help the PCs to grow a bit before they hit the really tough stuff. There is a pretty cool module that "upgrades" H1:Keep on the Shadowfell, and adds a number of new plot threads and encounters. Worth checking out as it adds more coherent RP'ing opportunities than the basic module. community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... Worth looking at, if only to understand what you'll have to keep an eye on as a DM in the basic module. Namely, dealing with Irontooth, Party Levels, party fatigue once you're in the dungeon, and a lack of roleplaying towards the 3rd Act. otherwise, all I can say is you'll have to play Irontooth by ear. I don't feel like I did a good job in my party's Irontooth encounter, so I plan to throw a "undead" Irontooth at the party for a round 2 near the end of the adventure. Fella wants his tooth back.
#6 mightywok May 02, 2010 7:58:00	I only learned this after running through the module over a year ago: it's kinda setup to be run like a sandbox. Were I to run it again, I would read the module front-to-back about three times and then gives the players more information about everything, and letting them drive the flow of the narrative.
#7 grehnhewe May 02, 2010 10:29:12	I ran this module when 4e came out for our group in order for us all to get used to the new rules. I reccomend reading through the module thoroughly and be prepared for the PCs to accomplish the adventure in a variety different ways. A flow chart might be very handy for this. Switching out some of the magic items for items that are catered toward the characters is a good idea. The Irontooth encounter is hard, but my PCs did ok in it. I did however have to pull a couple punches in the final encounter or it could have caused some character death(s) or even a TPK.
#8 overwine May 03, 2010 13:51:31	I had two or three players dead after Irontooth. I agree that some notice going into the fight would have been cooler RP wise. Maybe make a wanted poster in town for him or something. Make it a bigger deal in some way. That way if someone dies in the fight they can be raised with as a reward or buried as a hero. Other characters/enemies/things I enjoyed using for more RP action were Sir Keegan(Solo Brute in the Keep), Douvan Stahl(from the Burial Site) and the Thing in the Portal(final fight). Sir Keegan respected the paladin in our group after they succeeded in the skill challenge. His tomb acted as a safe haven when they needed to rest. After they had succeeded in destroying Kalarel, Keegan asked them to destroy him in order to rid the Keep of the last remaining taint. Douvan Stahl returned to town and was a friendly face whenever they stopped back in. I made him into a retired adventurer and he could follow the PCs around and help if things go badly. I ended up using the freed goblin Splug in this same way after Douvan left. The Thing in the Portal has an ability to grab Kalarel as soon as he hits 0 hp. I gave it a similar ability with the PCs. After they went to 0 and they were in reach it would grab on to them and slowly pull their body towards the portal. One PC actually got pulled through... never to be seen again Plot points!
#9 r3v4n May 07, 2010 7:13:36	I ran H1 back when it first came out so I'm not familiar with the updated version. I recommend reading the Eberron and Forgotten Realms conversions and the H1 side treks from Dungeon 155. The NPCs, plot/adventure hooks, and story were pretty weak in H1. Even if you plan to run in the "points of light" setting, you should steal ideas from the conversions for making the NPCs and plot more interesting. A lot depends on the players and the party they make. Mostly my advice is to just watch your players and try to focus on what they (and you) are enjoying. One trick I found is to secretly minion-ize (i.e. next direct hit will kill) some enemies if an encounter is going on too long. You might experiment with running some enemies in half-health-double-damage mode -- I found that made the encounters more exciting. You may find the advice at www.thealexandrian.net/creations/keep-sh... helpful. elevenfootpole.blogspot.com/2009/01/keep... is more analysis than advice, but it certainly will help you understand the issues you might want to fix.
#10 mushii May 08, 2010 0:52:08	Our party ran this adventure a month back. Here's some notes and tips from that experience: SPOILER 1) Understand what the main villain is trying to accomplish, and who the key players for and against that goal are. You should try to understand how Agrid, Balrog, The Warchief, Irontooth, Bairwin, Nimoran, Valthrun, and Sir Keegan are involved. Having this makes ad-hoc adjustments easier to handle. 2) Put some thought into Kalarel, his plot, and how you introduce him. I didn't, and in the end he seemed more a vaguely referenced obstacle to the quest rather than a true villain. Anyone who can command a small army, control undead, and possess a ritual powerful enough to merge realms deserves tension and build-up. Ideas include direct introduction, some horrid dream sequences (with surge losses!), or fanatics who would rather die screaming his name than surrender any information. 3) Splug the goblin can be a real fun NPC with re-use potential. I made ours with a bard template for added mischief. 4) Understand the mechanics of the Trap Room beforehand; there are three traps that are working in conjunction. You may want to test drive this one on your own to get a feel for how the interaction should work. I didn't, and the encounter wasn't as fun as it could have been. 5) This one isn't specific to H1, but adapting the environment to the inhabitants always adds an extra layer of spice (and options). There were some 'Slayers Guides to xMonster' back in v3.5 that had great tips for bringing monsters to life. In our game, goblins have no care for sanitation, which introduced Endurance checks to avoid nausea, terrain options, and disease. Hobgoblins on the other hand are extremely militant, so their areas had organized defense and escape plans. 6) As someone said earlier, some ideas what types of magic items your party is interested. Hope this helps - Mushii~
#11 infernice May 09, 2010 16:11:51	Thanks for all of the responses. I haven't actually ran it yet, we got sidetracked during the first session, which now gives me much more time to look at the linked-to conversions and additions. I hope they're prove to be useful. What is it that makes the Irontooth encounter especially hard? From reading it it doesn't seem terribly difficult. Is it just the fact that are a large number of enemies? Maybe I should playtest it myself beforehand to see...(but then I'd be biased and have previous knowledge and experience)
#12 r3v4n May 09, 2010 19:54:05	Encounters A2 and A3 have a way of becoming 1 big encounter. Even if the PCs do take a short rest before A3, it's a level 6 encounter -- much harder than anything they have yet faced. The kobolds have lots of frustrating bonus shifting, mob attack can be devastating, the wyrmpriest is more trouble than players expect, and Irontooth himself is a beast. Basically, if the players go in tactical, expecting a tough fight, they should be fine. Unfortunately, the module doesn't do much to warn them that A3 is radically harder than what they have faced so far. If anything, A2 lulls them into a false sense of security. By the time they realize things are serious, it may be too late.
#13 Neutronium_Dragon May 09, 2010 21:27:05	One thing that can help is to have the first inside-the-cave wave scatter when Irontooth's wave arrives; they don't want to be in the way when he's swinging at things.