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Against the Thieves Guild

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
gorice
May 28, 2009 16:02:45 I'm trying to work on an adventure path where the Thieves Guild of a large city (with some smaller towns, villages and estates under its regional authority) are the main antagonists. The government trying to deal with it is led by Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral npcs; the pcs are prominent in the government but mostly as troubleshooters.

First of all I need to figure out the following:

1. How many are likely to be in the guild? And does it make sense to include non-adventuring types who would be involved, like artisans, beggars, peddlers and so on?

2. Are there some pre-existing adventures (other than the ones in "Savage Tide") that I could make use of?

3. Have other dms made use of Thieves Guilds as main antagonists? How did it work?
#2
sigil_beguiler
May 28, 2009 16:14:33 1. With a Thieves Guild it would I would say be hard to determine how many belong to it. Such a organization would always be in flux and have various orbiting parties around it. You would have the core organization most likely divided up into various groups (such a guild would like to keep their secrets so no eggs in one basket). You would have lone thieves and fences working with them. Various eyes on the streets paying for their knowledge. You would have the poor who can only find food, goods, etc. through the Thieves Guild. You would have various government and city officials, as well as other guilds who have been paid off by the Thieves Guild.

2. I dunno, I don't use pre-made adventures.

3. Normally I have various Thieves Guild organizations (usually not one specific one) but not as antagonist but instead a neutral party. It is very common for my PCs to work with them mainly to gain information but also against them if they have some object or information they have that the Thieves Guild wishes to get their hands on.
#3
gorice
May 28, 2009 17:59:56 Odd as it may seem my pc group never has worked with a Thieves Guild until my campaign. In the city they used to be in they got involved with a turf war, aided one party, then made a series of deals when that party's leader became Guildmaster.

Which brings me to my next point--how likely is it (given magic, etc) that Thieves Guilds from different cities would have friendly or rival dealings with one another? I'm seeing the two pcs who have important contacts in the other guild maybe asking for favours or advice if they could.

Thanks very much for the advice so far, I really appreciate it.

I should add that this ties in with my "Lawful Good Economics" thread, which I thank others for helping so much with. The basic idea is that slavery has been abolished but the Thieves Guild is secretly helping exploit people in spite of the new laws.
#4
sigil_beguiler
May 28, 2009 18:16:10 I would say both rivarlries and working together. Each Thieves Guild (and each member within them) would be out for themselves and try to gain as much power, wealth, etc. as they can. However that doesn't mean they would be rivals. A lot of the time it would be beneficial for both to work together.

For example your slavery example. One Thieves Guild has influence in various armies engaged in a civil war. As such they use that as a cover to enslave people. From there they are sold to another Thieves Guild who are in a more stable city from which they can distribute the slaves to whoever wishes to own them. But at the same time they would try to get the best deals so willing to sale plague-ridden slaves, or paying less then said, perhaps raiding slave trains, etc.
#5
descrii
May 29, 2009 0:25:26 Why does the government want to act against the guild? As I understand it part of the purpose of a guild organization for criminals is to police itself and liason with the government.

The guys at the top of the guild have a relationship with influential members of government. The guild prevents criminals from targeting certain people and punishes any who do something really savage. When the government needs the support of the people the thieves drum it up. When powerful rival merchant houses move in on spheres controlled by those in government the thieves target those businesses and cripple them.

In return, the government makes sure certain members of the guild are above the law, lets important guild members and their family out of prison, and generally tolerates an acceptable level of lawlessness. Right?

If that's not the case it seems like a guild couldn't exist at all. Perhaps it's more like a mafia - a closed criminal organization, quite secretive, whose members work together to pull of larger rackets. If so it might be quite easy to bring down the mafia soldiers, but their bosses rarely actually do anything illegal themselves. In this case there probably wouldn't be any beggars, peddlars, etc. in the mafia, but there would be extended families including plenty of noncombatants. I imagine the PCs would have to try to provoke the leaders of the mafia into doing illegal things themselves so that they could be captured and punished by the government.

If it is a true guild as I outlined above, then maybe there's been some kind of falling out between the guild and the government. Maybe a new guild has moved in and made a deal with the government and now the government wants to eliminate its old partners. If that's the case the PCs will be pawns helping to carry out a pogrom that might well include people like beggars, peddlars, urchins, etc.

Or maybe it's some idealistic young prince who's just assumed the throne. He considers his father's deals with the guild unacceptable equivocating and tries to eliminate the guild, assuming that if the guild is destroyed there will be no crime. The PCs can sack a few villas and drive the guild leaders out of the city. The guild leaders retire to their country estates and wait for the city to fall into lawlessness and panic. Later the PCs are sent to retrieve the guildmasters and ask them to return! Then they have to help the guildmasters get the city's criminals back under control.

So, yeah, why does the city want to attack the guild?
#6
gorice
May 29, 2009 9:21:15 What has happened is this: the city and the province it rules over WERE part of a kingdom that is at war. It was captured by an army and fleet of people considered barbarians by the native population. One of the things the general commanding recently did was to abolish slavery. The Thieves Guild is sponsoring illegal activities that undermine this. (helping organize various forms of forced labour) It also has ties to bandit groups and is in effect playing off conflicting elements of society against one another for gain.

I realize that this is not the typical Thieves Guild. I also realize that what you are presenting is a likely scenario--the idea of corruption in order to hold off more corruption.

In a way I see the Thieves Guild as patriots in a sense--wanting to undermine what some will see as a disastrous social and economic change, wanting possibly for the barbarians to leave. Alternatively I can see some elements in the Guild wanting to make the best of things.
#7
jrgumby
May 29, 2009 12:24:11 I think you have a couple options.

1. The first is to make the thieves guild a front for widespread organized resistance. It sort of happened by accident, but as citizens started to grate under the new rule they turned to the only people around that actively disobey and thwart the law.

This means that the individuals involved will be highly varied, and will increase in number throughout the campaign. It also means the PCs will have to chose which side to be on, which would be sort of neat. If they oppose the thieves guild it should work a lot like #2. If they join them, then they end up running a number of guerilla-style missions to try and destablize the local government. They can start small liberating an outlying village, and slowly work their way towards freeing the entire city.

2. The thieves guild is a losse network of associated organizations. There a great many cells, and the way the characters work their way up the chain will look like one of those mafia association trees you see in the movies. Once they capture the head of the small guild in their starting town, they get clues that tell them about a few other guys.

If you run it this way make it a bit more investigative, but always leave a lot of clues to help lead them to their next target. Either make them very very clear or leave at least 3-4 clues for them that point the same way and aren't crazy archaic.

Each cell varies in size and expertise. You can make them as large as you want, but in a situation like you describe with recent war and the hardship it brings I'd imagine their numbers have swollen some (And the real answer to 'how many' is 'how many do you need for this to work? A major city could have two hundred people in the guild or their pockets). You can 'flavor' each cell by making the leader radically change their tactics and the monsters (if any) that they utilize.

This way they get to have a series of encounters with interesting mini-villians before they get to the big guy at the top.

Personally I've been using a Thieves Guild as a minor antagonist in my campaign, and it's been a lot of fun. The players got to destabilize the current situation, break the thieves guild's leader out of prison, then turn around and betray them to the town guard. I think thieves guilds are a really good and easily accepted way to introduce some political and social tension into the world; and the best part is that they're so random and variable that you can do pretty much whatever you want with them and if you explain it right it's highly believable.
#8
gorice
May 29, 2009 16:21:42 Thanks, that's very helpful! What I'm working on so far are the following elements:

Anti-Government

1. A former pit fighter slave who has organized a group of bandits; they for whatever reason don't feel like just being a slightly paid version of slaves. Their stolen goods get smuggled into the city and bought at a black market.

2. A former slave who is trying to organize a labourers' guild to prevent abuses; seen as a firebrand by local merchants. Has a counterpart in the countryside that has HQ in a refugee camp.

3. The three most prominent slavers; they have survived by organizing labour at slave wages and secretly smuggle slaves in and out of the city.

4. a group of assassins of various types who are fanatical patriots and want to see the kingdom's rule restored. They are led by disenfranchised nobles who went underground.

5. a privateer fleet that is trying to keep the general from being resupplied and also profiting by it. (the kingdom lacks the military strength to take the city back but has just enough to have fortified remaining areas of the kingdom--for now it's a stalemate)

Pro-Government

1. The General and her followers, who are the new rulers of the city. While they have numbers and strength on their side they have a code of honour that prevents them from killing noncombatants casually and few of them are streetwise.

2. The General's spymaster. This deceptively avuncular man is a ruthless former assassin who was sent as a kind of political officer (representing what is called "The Nocturnal Council" back home)

3. The collaborators. Can they be trusted? Who really knows. But it seems to be in the interests of the collaborators (merchants and minor nobility, mercenaries and so on) to act in the best interests of the new government.

The Thieves Guild

What I haven't worked out is who is who in the Thieves Guild, who is up to what and so on. What I've been wondering is if I should perhaps have a number of 'turfs' as in suggestion number two, so for example:

1. The greater market. (this is a big permanent market where regular goods flow in enabling shops to stay open all the time. With so much temptation the market thieves control 'protection' for the shops)

2. The smugglers. Various smuggled goods are regulated by these Thieves. They tend to control the caravanserai areas and the harbour. (which is partly riverine, partly extending into the bay)

3. The beggars.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 gorice May 28, 2009 16:02:45	I'm trying to work on an adventure path where the Thieves Guild of a large city (with some smaller towns, villages and estates under its regional authority) are the main antagonists. The government trying to deal with it is led by Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral npcs; the pcs are prominent in the government but mostly as troubleshooters. First of all I need to figure out the following: 1. How many are likely to be in the guild? And does it make sense to include non-adventuring types who would be involved, like artisans, beggars, peddlers and so on? 2. Are there some pre-existing adventures (other than the ones in "Savage Tide") that I could make use of? 3. Have other dms made use of Thieves Guilds as main antagonists? How did it work?
#2 sigil_beguiler May 28, 2009 16:14:33	1. With a Thieves Guild it would I would say be hard to determine how many belong to it. Such a organization would always be in flux and have various orbiting parties around it. You would have the core organization most likely divided up into various groups (such a guild would like to keep their secrets so no eggs in one basket). You would have lone thieves and fences working with them. Various eyes on the streets paying for their knowledge. You would have the poor who can only find food, goods, etc. through the Thieves Guild. You would have various government and city officials, as well as other guilds who have been paid off by the Thieves Guild. 2. I dunno, I don't use pre-made adventures. 3. Normally I have various Thieves Guild organizations (usually not one specific one) but not as antagonist but instead a neutral party. It is very common for my PCs to work with them mainly to gain information but also against them if they have some object or information they have that the Thieves Guild wishes to get their hands on.
#3 gorice May 28, 2009 17:59:56	Odd as it may seem my pc group never has worked with a Thieves Guild until my campaign. In the city they used to be in they got involved with a turf war, aided one party, then made a series of deals when that party's leader became Guildmaster. Which brings me to my next point--how likely is it (given magic, etc) that Thieves Guilds from different cities would have friendly or rival dealings with one another? I'm seeing the two pcs who have important contacts in the other guild maybe asking for favours or advice if they could. Thanks very much for the advice so far, I really appreciate it. I should add that this ties in with my "Lawful Good Economics" thread, which I thank others for helping so much with. The basic idea is that slavery has been abolished but the Thieves Guild is secretly helping exploit people in spite of the new laws.
#4 sigil_beguiler May 28, 2009 18:16:10	I would say both rivarlries and working together. Each Thieves Guild (and each member within them) would be out for themselves and try to gain as much power, wealth, etc. as they can. However that doesn't mean they would be rivals. A lot of the time it would be beneficial for both to work together. For example your slavery example. One Thieves Guild has influence in various armies engaged in a civil war. As such they use that as a cover to enslave people. From there they are sold to another Thieves Guild who are in a more stable city from which they can distribute the slaves to whoever wishes to own them. But at the same time they would try to get the best deals so willing to sale plague-ridden slaves, or paying less then said, perhaps raiding slave trains, etc.
#5 descrii May 29, 2009 0:25:26	Why does the government want to act against the guild? As I understand it part of the purpose of a guild organization for criminals is to police itself and liason with the government. The guys at the top of the guild have a relationship with influential members of government. The guild prevents criminals from targeting certain people and punishes any who do something really savage. When the government needs the support of the people the thieves drum it up. When powerful rival merchant houses move in on spheres controlled by those in government the thieves target those businesses and cripple them. In return, the government makes sure certain members of the guild are above the law, lets important guild members and their family out of prison, and generally tolerates an acceptable level of lawlessness. Right? If that's not the case it seems like a guild couldn't exist at all. Perhaps it's more like a mafia - a closed criminal organization, quite secretive, whose members work together to pull of larger rackets. If so it might be quite easy to bring down the mafia soldiers, but their bosses rarely actually do anything illegal themselves. In this case there probably wouldn't be any beggars, peddlars, etc. in the mafia, but there would be extended families including plenty of noncombatants. I imagine the PCs would have to try to provoke the leaders of the mafia into doing illegal things themselves so that they could be captured and punished by the government. If it is a true guild as I outlined above, then maybe there's been some kind of falling out between the guild and the government. Maybe a new guild has moved in and made a deal with the government and now the government wants to eliminate its old partners. If that's the case the PCs will be pawns helping to carry out a pogrom that might well include people like beggars, peddlars, urchins, etc. Or maybe it's some idealistic young prince who's just assumed the throne. He considers his father's deals with the guild unacceptable equivocating and tries to eliminate the guild, assuming that if the guild is destroyed there will be no crime. The PCs can sack a few villas and drive the guild leaders out of the city. The guild leaders retire to their country estates and wait for the city to fall into lawlessness and panic. Later the PCs are sent to retrieve the guildmasters and ask them to return! Then they have to help the guildmasters get the city's criminals back under control. So, yeah, why does the city want to attack the guild?
#6 gorice May 29, 2009 9:21:15	What has happened is this: the city and the province it rules over WERE part of a kingdom that is at war. It was captured by an army and fleet of people considered barbarians by the native population. One of the things the general commanding recently did was to abolish slavery. The Thieves Guild is sponsoring illegal activities that undermine this. (helping organize various forms of forced labour) It also has ties to bandit groups and is in effect playing off conflicting elements of society against one another for gain. I realize that this is not the typical Thieves Guild. I also realize that what you are presenting is a likely scenario--the idea of corruption in order to hold off more corruption. In a way I see the Thieves Guild as patriots in a sense--wanting to undermine what some will see as a disastrous social and economic change, wanting possibly for the barbarians to leave. Alternatively I can see some elements in the Guild wanting to make the best of things.
#7 jrgumby May 29, 2009 12:24:11	I think you have a couple options. 1. The first is to make the thieves guild a front for widespread organized resistance. It sort of happened by accident, but as citizens started to grate under the new rule they turned to the only people around that actively disobey and thwart the law. This means that the individuals involved will be highly varied, and will increase in number throughout the campaign. It also means the PCs will have to chose which side to be on, which would be sort of neat. If they oppose the thieves guild it should work a lot like #2. If they join them, then they end up running a number of guerilla-style missions to try and destablize the local government. They can start small liberating an outlying village, and slowly work their way towards freeing the entire city. 2. The thieves guild is a losse network of associated organizations. There a great many cells, and the way the characters work their way up the chain will look like one of those mafia association trees you see in the movies. Once they capture the head of the small guild in their starting town, they get clues that tell them about a few other guys. If you run it this way make it a bit more investigative, but always leave a lot of clues to help lead them to their next target. Either make them very very clear or leave at least 3-4 clues for them that point the same way and aren't crazy archaic. Each cell varies in size and expertise. You can make them as large as you want, but in a situation like you describe with recent war and the hardship it brings I'd imagine their numbers have swollen some (And the real answer to 'how many' is 'how many do you need for this to work? A major city could have two hundred people in the guild or their pockets). You can 'flavor' each cell by making the leader radically change their tactics and the monsters (if any) that they utilize. This way they get to have a series of encounters with interesting mini-villians before they get to the big guy at the top. Personally I've been using a Thieves Guild as a minor antagonist in my campaign, and it's been a lot of fun. The players got to destabilize the current situation, break the thieves guild's leader out of prison, then turn around and betray them to the town guard. I think thieves guilds are a really good and easily accepted way to introduce some political and social tension into the world; and the best part is that they're so random and variable that you can do pretty much whatever you want with them and if you explain it right it's highly believable.
#8 gorice May 29, 2009 16:21:42	Thanks, that's very helpful! What I'm working on so far are the following elements: Anti-Government 1. A former pit fighter slave who has organized a group of bandits; they for whatever reason don't feel like just being a slightly paid version of slaves. Their stolen goods get smuggled into the city and bought at a black market. 2. A former slave who is trying to organize a labourers' guild to prevent abuses; seen as a firebrand by local merchants. Has a counterpart in the countryside that has HQ in a refugee camp. 3. The three most prominent slavers; they have survived by organizing labour at slave wages and secretly smuggle slaves in and out of the city. 4. a group of assassins of various types who are fanatical patriots and want to see the kingdom's rule restored. They are led by disenfranchised nobles who went underground. 5. a privateer fleet that is trying to keep the general from being resupplied and also profiting by it. (the kingdom lacks the military strength to take the city back but has just enough to have fortified remaining areas of the kingdom--for now it's a stalemate) Pro-Government 1. The General and her followers, who are the new rulers of the city. While they have numbers and strength on their side they have a code of honour that prevents them from killing noncombatants casually and few of them are streetwise. 2. The General's spymaster. This deceptively avuncular man is a ruthless former assassin who was sent as a kind of political officer (representing what is called "The Nocturnal Council" back home) 3. The collaborators. Can they be trusted? Who really knows. But it seems to be in the interests of the collaborators (merchants and minor nobility, mercenaries and so on) to act in the best interests of the new government. The Thieves Guild What I haven't worked out is who is who in the Thieves Guild, who is up to what and so on. What I've been wondering is if I should perhaps have a number of 'turfs' as in suggestion number two, so for example: 1. The greater market. (this is a big permanent market where regular goods flow in enabling shops to stay open all the time. With so much temptation the market thieves control 'protection' for the shops) 2. The smugglers. Various smuggled goods are regulated by these Thieves. They tend to control the caravanserai areas and the harbour. (which is partly riverine, partly extending into the bay) 3. The beggars.