Allowing 2 Paragon Paths - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Allowing 2 Paragon Paths

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
majesticmoose
Apr 08, 2011 13:37:41 Choose 2 PP at level 11.

So here's the system I'd propose: *edited to keep current with converstation*
level 11:
pick one AP feature
pick one other feature
pick one L11 encounter power

level 12:
pick one utility power

level 13:
train out an encounter power for the other path's L11 encounter power

level 16:
pick up the other path's L12 utility instead of a L16 class/skill utility power
pick one path's L16 feature

level 19:
train out a daily power for one path's L20 daily (they're about the strength of L19 dailies in most cases)

level 20:
take the other path's L20 daily as your 4th daily as normal.

A feat takable to grant all PP path features (except the AP feature, you only have one choice for that)

Thoughts?
#2
Crimson_Concerto
Apr 08, 2011 14:52:04
level 13: You must replace your lowest level encounter power with the encounter power of your secondary PP. This power may not be forgotten or retrained out (in essence you're stuck with it).

level 15: you must replace your lowest level daily power with the daily power from your initial PP. This power may not be forgotten or retrained.

Why lowest level? That doesn't seem to make too much sense. Heck, if I really like my level 1 power, I can still keep it by just retraining a higher level power of mine into another level 1 power so that I can replace it instead of the one that I want to keep, right?
#3
Timmeh
Apr 08, 2011 14:56:09 I would allow 2 paragon paths, but have them choose which features to keep. There's no need to mix it in with the normal powers that a class gets. Just go line by line "which paragon encounter power do you want", "which paragon utility do you want". Mixing it in with the normal class powers will have more of an unbalancing effect.
#4
Kaviyd3
Apr 08, 2011 14:56:54 Another problem is that paragon paths do not grant daily powers until 20th level. For your scheme to work properly, the daily power from your second paragon path has to replace your 25th level daily class power, not your 15th or 19th.
#5
majesticmoose
Apr 08, 2011 15:19:26
level 13: You must replace your lowest level encounter power with the encounter power of your secondary PP. This power may not be forgotten or retrained out (in essence you're stuck with it).

level 15: you must replace your lowest level daily power with the daily power from your initial PP. This power may not be forgotten or retrained.

Why lowest level? That doesn't seem to make too much sense. Heck, if I really like my level 1 power, I can still keep it by just retraining a higher level power of mine into another level 1 power so that I can replace it instead of the one that I want to keep, right?

Specifically because you may always choose to have a lower level power in a higher level slot.

When you reach level 13 you must unlearn a power to learn the level 13e, so effectively you must lose your lowest level slot for this power.

In the end it's just a point for me to say that you lose your lowest level slot to this power. No real reason.

@Timmeh, The point of this was to make a character that could actually benefit from multiple paragon paths in their entirety. Sometimes when I look at character design I say to myself, why can't I be a tiefling Battlemind that's both infernal eye and Iron guardian in their entirety. My concern is that giving them both sets of non-power pp features is imbalancing, but I remember an article where a pp feature is not even "suppose" to be as good as a feat. don't know how much I believe it, but there you go.

@Kaviyd3 Sorry, AFB, so now that you mention it, yes they are20th level features aren't they. Do, that throws my math off a tad. I suppose, would it be uncouth to say that you don't get a level 15 daily in exchange for the PP features that you do gain? Is that a bad trade, in general I mean.
#6
Timmeh
Apr 08, 2011 15:30:27
level 13: You must replace your lowest level encounter power with the encounter power of your secondary PP. This power may not be forgotten or retrained out (in essence you're stuck with it).

level 15: you must replace your lowest level daily power with the daily power from your initial PP. This power may not be forgotten or retrained.

Why lowest level? That doesn't seem to make too much sense. Heck, if I really like my level 1 power, I can still keep it by just retraining a higher level power of mine into another level 1 power so that I can replace it instead of the one that I want to keep, right?

Specifically because you may always choose to have a lower level power in a higher level slot.

When you reach level 13 you must unlearn a power to learn the level 13e, so effectively you must lose your lowest level slot for this power.

In the end it's just a point for me to say that you lose your lowest level slot to this power. No real reason.

@Timmeh, The point of this was to make a character that could actually benefit from multiple paragon paths in their entirety. Sometimes when I look at character design I say to myself, why can't I be a tiefling Battlemind that's both infernal eye and Iron guardian in their entirety. My concern is that giving them both sets of non-power pp features is imbalancing, but I remember an article where a pp feature is not even "suppose" to be as good as a feat. don't know how much I believe it, but there you go.

@Kaviyd3 Sorry, AFB, so now that you mention it, yes they are20th level features aren't they. Do, that throws my math off a tad. I suppose, would it be uncouth to say that you don't get a level 15 daily in exchange for the PP features that you do gain? Is that a bad trade, in general I mean.

Ok. Understandable.

Here's the thing about the "lowest level". I'm not sure if I'm misinterpretting what you're proposing; and I think that that's where the objections are coming from

Take the normal character at 13-16
They're going to have 3, 7, 13, P11 encounter powers from 13->17
What you are suggesting will give them 7, 13, and 2 P11 encounter powers?
Or do you mean that they'll have 3, 7, and 2 P11 encounter powers? << This one is "better" (in the sense of you're not increasing character power).

I bite my lip a bit; I'm not sure if P11 encounter powers are balanced with C13 (Class 13) powers, P12 are balanced with C16, and D19 (or D25) are balanced with P20 powers. Especially in the case of the Paragon 20 daily power. I assume that it's not going to make a big difference for the encounter power; so as long as you're using the 3, 7, 2 P11 system, I don't think this will be a big deal. It's the utility and the daily power that I'm worried about; I've always thought that Paragon classes had some of the better utility/dailies in the game (though some paragon classes have crappy ones).
#7
thanerhogar
Apr 08, 2011 23:43:13 Hand out the daily from one PP at 19th instead of the level 19 class daily the character would normally get, and they get the second one at 20 like they would with one PP.

As to the AP ability, level 11 ability, and level 16 ability from the PP, be VERY careful with those. For some PP's (Kensai comes to mind, as do Lyrandar Wind Rider, Juggernaut, Coronal Guard, Pit Fighter, and Daggermaster), the non-power abilities are a significantly bigger deal than the powers, so having the extra set of those for free would be a huge buff. In fact, I'm pretty sure most weapon-using classes who cared at all about damage would just take Kensai as a second PP for +1 attack/+4 damage with their chosen weapon in exchange for putting a crappy encounter power in their level 13 slot. If you want to do anything besides hand out a huge free power boost to one PC for no apparent reason other than that the player asked, at the very least make them choose one ability or the other from each category (one AP feature, one other L11 feature, and one L16 feature). I have no idea where you read that each of those was supposed to be worth less than a feat, but that's only true of the terrible paragon paths nobody takes. And even if it were, the system you propose would be handing out the equivalent of 2 free feats in exchange for taking PP powers instead of class powers in a level trade that's a net neutral for most classes (completely awful for psionic augmentors, but I assume you would have mentioned if that was an issue in this case, since it really changes the power selection dynamics).

So here's the system I'd propose:
level 11:
pick one AP feature
pick one other feature
pick one L11 encounter power

level 12:
pick one utility power

level 13:
train out an encounter power for the other path's L11 encounter power

level 16:
pick up the other path's L12 utility instead of a L16 class/skill utility power
pick one path's L16 feature

level 19:
train out a daily power for one path's L20 daily (they're about the strength of L19 dailies in most cases)

level 20:
take the other path's L20 daily as your 4th daily as normal.

I would personally require the character to pick up at least one of the non-power features from each path, to maintain the flavor of mixing both paths rather than advancing more normally in their class. This is still a definite power buff in most cases, since you're giving out choice in those potentially very strong abilities, but this way you're getting the powers from both paths, and choosing your features as a hybrid of both. It should work well and be balanced enough that you won't have a big issue with it in-game.
#8
majesticmoose
Apr 11, 2011 11:43:51 Would it be reasonable to say that a feat could be used to aquire both sets of PP features (but not both AP features)?

I do realize that certain PP are heinosly powerful, but on the average is a small feat tax enough to weigh the cost of those extra features?
#9
thanerhogar
Apr 12, 2011 23:16:08
Would it be reasonable to say that a feat could be used to aquire both sets of PP features (but not both AP features)?

I do realize that certain PP are heinosly powerful, but on the average is a small feat tax enough to weigh the cost of those extra features?

I would lean heavily toward 'no,' or to approving them on an individual basis (although I'd probably wanna do that with any mixed PP). The thing is that in most cases, the worse L11 feature and the worse L16 feature (since you already picked up the better of each) won't be worth spending a feat on. But I bet there are a handful of combinations where the abilities simply shouldn't coincide, and a feat is way too small a cost to pay to do it. Long story short, if you look at what PP's each character is picking, feel comfortable that they're not looking mostly for optimization and that you understand any potential combos or interactions between the abilities that might be broken and aren't granting any of those, a feat to do that is probably totally reasonable. But I definitely wouldn't tell everyone beforehand they were gonna get that and end up with some horrible, multi-damage-stat or multi-status-effect stacking monstrosity when they did it.
#10
majesticmoose
Apr 13, 2011 11:22:26 Fair enough. I'll take that under advisment. Probably not something that will end up in the game anyway, i was jsut musing...
#11
thanerhogar
Apr 14, 2011 1:15:14 It seems like a good idea for generally RP-driven players, and an impossible to balance one for powergamers. If people are genuinely looking for more features to better express their character flavor, rewarding them with this might be a cool way to continue to encourage that. I've just spent too much time on the CharOp forum not to get eye twitches when I watch extra features of that potential being handed out.
#12
majesticmoose
Apr 15, 2011 14:48:48
It seems like a good idea for generally RP-driven players, and an impossible to balance one for powergamers. If people are genuinely looking for more features to better express their character flavor, rewarding them with this might be a cool way to continue to encourage that. I've just spent too much time on the CharOp forum not to get eye twitches when I watch extra features of that potential being handed out.

Yeah, i avoid the Char Op forum. Like a plague.

Not that they aren't useful, not that they're wrong to optomize as such, but in their zeal to optomize they let loose the pandora's box of combos.

ie. the charging combos that are a problem right now. I've never had a problem at my table. It's never come up even once, and we have all the resources there are.

I know there could potentially be some broken combos, but I like the idea of opening up that RP element to diverge froma strict class build (and My suspicion is that it would be a cool option for "multiclassing" with out multiclassing.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 majesticmoose Apr 08, 2011 13:37:41	Choose 2 PP at level 11. So here's the system I'd propose: edited to keep current with converstation level 11: pick one AP feature pick one other feature pick one L11 encounter power level 12: pick one utility power level 13: train out an encounter power for the other path's L11 encounter power level 16: pick up the other path's L12 utility instead of a L16 class/skill utility power pick one path's L16 feature level 19: train out a daily power for one path's L20 daily (they're about the strength of L19 dailies in most cases) level 20: take the other path's L20 daily as your 4th daily as normal. A feat takable to grant all PP path features (except the AP feature, you only have one choice for that) Thoughts?
#2 Crimson_Concerto Apr 08, 2011 14:52:04	level 13: You must replace your lowest level encounter power with the encounter power of your secondary PP. This power may not be forgotten or retrained out (in essence you're stuck with it). level 15: you must replace your lowest level daily power with the daily power from your initial PP. This power may not be forgotten or retrained. Why lowest level? That doesn't seem to make too much sense. Heck, if I really like my level 1 power, I can still keep it by just retraining a higher level power of mine into another level 1 power so that I can replace it instead of the one that I want to keep, right?
#3 Timmeh Apr 08, 2011 14:56:09	I would allow 2 paragon paths, but have them choose which features to keep. There's no need to mix it in with the normal powers that a class gets. Just go line by line "which paragon encounter power do you want", "which paragon utility do you want". Mixing it in with the normal class powers will have more of an unbalancing effect.
#4 Kaviyd3 Apr 08, 2011 14:56:54	Another problem is that paragon paths do not grant daily powers until 20th level. For your scheme to work properly, the daily power from your second paragon path has to replace your 25th level daily class power, not your 15th or 19th.
#5 majesticmoose Apr 08, 2011 15:19:26	level 13: You must replace your lowest level encounter power with the encounter power of your secondary PP. This power may not be forgotten or retrained out (in essence you're stuck with it). level 15: you must replace your lowest level daily power with the daily power from your initial PP. This power may not be forgotten or retrained. Why lowest level? That doesn't seem to make too much sense. Heck, if I really like my level 1 power, I can still keep it by just retraining a higher level power of mine into another level 1 power so that I can replace it instead of the one that I want to keep, right? Specifically because you may always choose to have a lower level power in a higher level slot. When you reach level 13 you must unlearn a power to learn the level 13e, so effectively you must lose your lowest level slot for this power. In the end it's just a point for me to say that you lose your lowest level slot to this power. No real reason. @Timmeh, The point of this was to make a character that could actually benefit from multiple paragon paths in their entirety. Sometimes when I look at character design I say to myself, why can't I be a tiefling Battlemind that's both infernal eye and Iron guardian in their entirety. My concern is that giving them both sets of non-power pp features is imbalancing, but I remember an article where a pp feature is not even "suppose" to be as good as a feat. don't know how much I believe it, but there you go. @Kaviyd3 Sorry, AFB, so now that you mention it, yes they are20th level features aren't they. Do, that throws my math off a tad. I suppose, would it be uncouth to say that you don't get a level 15 daily in exchange for the PP features that you do gain? Is that a bad trade, in general I mean.
#6 Timmeh Apr 08, 2011 15:30:27	level 13: You must replace your lowest level encounter power with the encounter power of your secondary PP. This power may not be forgotten or retrained out (in essence you're stuck with it). level 15: you must replace your lowest level daily power with the daily power from your initial PP. This power may not be forgotten or retrained. Why lowest level? That doesn't seem to make too much sense. Heck, if I really like my level 1 power, I can still keep it by just retraining a higher level power of mine into another level 1 power so that I can replace it instead of the one that I want to keep, right? Specifically because you may always choose to have a lower level power in a higher level slot. When you reach level 13 you must unlearn a power to learn the level 13e, so effectively you must lose your lowest level slot for this power. In the end it's just a point for me to say that you lose your lowest level slot to this power. No real reason. @Timmeh, The point of this was to make a character that could actually benefit from multiple paragon paths in their entirety. Sometimes when I look at character design I say to myself, why can't I be a tiefling Battlemind that's both infernal eye and Iron guardian in their entirety. My concern is that giving them both sets of non-power pp features is imbalancing, but I remember an article where a pp feature is not even "suppose" to be as good as a feat. don't know how much I believe it, but there you go. @Kaviyd3 Sorry, AFB, so now that you mention it, yes they are20th level features aren't they. Do, that throws my math off a tad. I suppose, would it be uncouth to say that you don't get a level 15 daily in exchange for the PP features that you do gain? Is that a bad trade, in general I mean. Ok. Understandable. Here's the thing about the "lowest level". I'm not sure if I'm misinterpretting what you're proposing; and I think that that's where the objections are coming from Take the normal character at 13-16 They're going to have 3, 7, 13, P11 encounter powers from 13->17 What you are suggesting will give them 7, 13, and 2 P11 encounter powers? Or do you mean that they'll have 3, 7, and 2 P11 encounter powers? << This one is "better" (in the sense of you're not increasing character power). I bite my lip a bit; I'm not sure if P11 encounter powers are balanced with C13 (Class 13) powers, P12 are balanced with C16, and D19 (or D25) are balanced with P20 powers. Especially in the case of the Paragon 20 daily power. I assume that it's not going to make a big difference for the encounter power; so as long as you're using the 3, 7, 2 P11 system, I don't think this will be a big deal. It's the utility and the daily power that I'm worried about; I've always thought that Paragon classes had some of the better utility/dailies in the game (though some paragon classes have crappy ones).
#7 thanerhogar Apr 08, 2011 23:43:13	Hand out the daily from one PP at 19th instead of the level 19 class daily the character would normally get, and they get the second one at 20 like they would with one PP. As to the AP ability, level 11 ability, and level 16 ability from the PP, be VERY careful with those. For some PP's (Kensai comes to mind, as do Lyrandar Wind Rider, Juggernaut, Coronal Guard, Pit Fighter, and Daggermaster), the non-power abilities are a significantly bigger deal than the powers, so having the extra set of those for free would be a huge buff. In fact, I'm pretty sure most weapon-using classes who cared at all about damage would just take Kensai as a second PP for +1 attack/+4 damage with their chosen weapon in exchange for putting a crappy encounter power in their level 13 slot. If you want to do anything besides hand out a huge free power boost to one PC for no apparent reason other than that the player asked, at the very least make them choose one ability or the other from each category (one AP feature, one other L11 feature, and one L16 feature). I have no idea where you read that each of those was supposed to be worth less than a feat, but that's only true of the terrible paragon paths nobody takes. And even if it were, the system you propose would be handing out the equivalent of 2 free feats in exchange for taking PP powers instead of class powers in a level trade that's a net neutral for most classes (completely awful for psionic augmentors, but I assume you would have mentioned if that was an issue in this case, since it really changes the power selection dynamics). So here's the system I'd propose: level 11: pick one AP feature pick one other feature pick one L11 encounter power level 12: pick one utility power level 13: train out an encounter power for the other path's L11 encounter power level 16: pick up the other path's L12 utility instead of a L16 class/skill utility power pick one path's L16 feature level 19: train out a daily power for one path's L20 daily (they're about the strength of L19 dailies in most cases) level 20: take the other path's L20 daily as your 4th daily as normal. I would personally require the character to pick up at least one of the non-power features from each path, to maintain the flavor of mixing both paths rather than advancing more normally in their class. This is still a definite power buff in most cases, since you're giving out choice in those potentially very strong abilities, but this way you're getting the powers from both paths, and choosing your features as a hybrid of both. It should work well and be balanced enough that you won't have a big issue with it in-game.
#8 majesticmoose Apr 11, 2011 11:43:51	Would it be reasonable to say that a feat could be used to aquire both sets of PP features (but not both AP features)? I do realize that certain PP are heinosly powerful, but on the average is a small feat tax enough to weigh the cost of those extra features?
#9 thanerhogar Apr 12, 2011 23:16:08	Would it be reasonable to say that a feat could be used to aquire both sets of PP features (but not both AP features)? I do realize that certain PP are heinosly powerful, but on the average is a small feat tax enough to weigh the cost of those extra features? I would lean heavily toward 'no,' or to approving them on an individual basis (although I'd probably wanna do that with any mixed PP). The thing is that in most cases, the worse L11 feature and the worse L16 feature (since you already picked up the better of each) won't be worth spending a feat on. But I bet there are a handful of combinations where the abilities simply shouldn't coincide, and a feat is way too small a cost to pay to do it. Long story short, if you look at what PP's each character is picking, feel comfortable that they're not looking mostly for optimization and that you understand any potential combos or interactions between the abilities that might be broken and aren't granting any of those, a feat to do that is probably totally reasonable. But I definitely wouldn't tell everyone beforehand they were gonna get that and end up with some horrible, multi-damage-stat or multi-status-effect stacking monstrosity when they did it.
#10 majesticmoose Apr 13, 2011 11:22:26	Fair enough. I'll take that under advisment. Probably not something that will end up in the game anyway, i was jsut musing...
#11 thanerhogar Apr 14, 2011 1:15:14	It seems like a good idea for generally RP-driven players, and an impossible to balance one for powergamers. If people are genuinely looking for more features to better express their character flavor, rewarding them with this might be a cool way to continue to encourage that. I've just spent too much time on the CharOp forum not to get eye twitches when I watch extra features of that potential being handed out.
#12 majesticmoose Apr 15, 2011 14:48:48	It seems like a good idea for generally RP-driven players, and an impossible to balance one for powergamers. If people are genuinely looking for more features to better express their character flavor, rewarding them with this might be a cool way to continue to encourage that. I've just spent too much time on the CharOp forum not to get eye twitches when I watch extra features of that potential being handed out. Yeah, i avoid the Char Op forum. Like a plague. Not that they aren't useful, not that they're wrong to optomize as such, but in their zeal to optomize they let loose the pandora's box of combos. ie. the charging combos that are a problem right now. I've never had a problem at my table. It's never come up even once, and we have all the resources there are. I know there could potentially be some broken combos, but I like the idea of opening up that RP element to diverge froma strict class build (and My suspicion is that it would be a cool option for "multiclassing" with out multiclassing.