Alternate Magic Item Rules - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Alternate Magic Item Rules

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
fponkdamn
Apr 11, 2009 18:10:02 Here's the idea. I don't like how the game more or less forces me to provide my players with a steady stream of magic weapons, armor and implements in order to stay competitive. I don't mind the math of it, I just don't like the flavor. I understand monsters are balanced according to the idea that players will have these items increasing their attacks and defenses, so I don't want to deny that to them, nor do I want to re-balance every monster. Instead, what do y'all think of the following house rule?

All players will get a +1 Enchancement Bonus to all attack rolls, damage rolls, and Defenses (AC, Reflex, Fortitude, and Will) at levels 1, 6, 11, 16, 21, and 26.

This automatic bonus removes the need for magic items just to "keep up." Players would still want items, of course, for the critical damage bonus, special properties, etc, so magic items are still cool to get. But I don't end up fearing that I'll gimp the players if I miss an item in a treasure hoard.

In order to keep low-level items with good properties from being way too good in this system, there's also a caveat to the rule: "If a character has an item that provides an enchancement bonus to either weapon attacks/damage, implement attacks/damage, AC, or NADs, the innate enhancement bonus to that category is surpressed, even if it would normall be higher."

So, if you're level 6, you have a +2 to all attacks. If you want to use a +1 Duelists Weapon, you can - but you lower yourself to +1 to attack. This way, 25th-level characters don't just buy the level 1 versions of weapons in order to get the properties, etc.

You can also still "beat" the innate bonus with found treasure - if you're level 3, you have a natural +1 enhancement bonus to attacks, but if you find a +2 sword, you can use it and get the extra +1.

And of course, I'll overall lower the amount of treasure given, but not by much. Since this bonus doesn't stack with treasure, it just "fills in the gaps," and provides what the game assumes players will have anyway, it seems pretty safe.

Thoughts?

- Johnny
#2
salla
Apr 11, 2009 18:43:05 I don't see any need for the nerfing of the automatic enhancement bonus just because you're using the item's power. In a regular game, if someone liked the power, he could just have his (say) Duelist's Weapon upgraded from +1 to +2 with the money he's found/residuum gained from disenchanting other items he's not using.
#3
fponkdamn
Apr 11, 2009 19:07:17 The reason to nerf the automatic bonus if someone uses a lower-level weapon is to keep the economy going. If the automatic bonus applies anyway, then a character could just use the same +1 duelist's weapon throughout all 30 levels, since they'd get the +6 to attack and damage at level 26 anyway. This way, players still need to get better magic items if they want cool abilities, they're just not penalized by the game system if they don't have one.
#4
bone_naga
Apr 11, 2009 20:54:29
The reason to nerf the automatic bonus if someone uses a lower-level weapon is to keep the economy going. If the automatic bonus applies anyway, then a character could just use the same +1 duelist's weapon throughout all 30 levels, since they'd get the +6 to attack and damage at level 26 anyway. This way, players still need to get better magic items if they want cool abilities, they're just not penalized by the game system if they don't have one.

I think the desire to have better magic items will always be there, regardless. However, I think it might break suspension of disbelief if the players find that their magic items lose effectiveness over time (granted this loss is relative, as the item stays the same but they improve, but you get the idea). A player shouldn't one day decide to discard his favorite magic sword because now that he hit level 10 or whatever its no longer to his benefit to use it. He should get rid of it because he found something better.
#5
EmpactWB
Apr 11, 2009 22:28:05 (For those who don't know, I'm one of the player's in the OP's game. I'll be writing in a general form, but the examples are mostly drawn from the game itself to show where this would have a definite impact on the game.)

One problem here is with unenchanted weapons. A plain +X weapon is literally a waste of space if your level or lower. You get the same benefit from a mundane weapon. For instance, a level 6 character with a +2 longsword and a mundane longsword has equal chances to hit and deals the exact same damage with either one. If he has instead a +1 longsword and a mundane longsword, he suffers a -1 to attacks and damage for using the magic weapon over the mundane one. A character should never have a higher attack/damage with a mundane version of a weapon compared to a magical version of it, regardless of the properties/powers it possesses. In other words, deliberately reducing the enhancement bonus, whether it comes from a character or the item itself, is not a balancing factor in line with the design precepts of 4E. The expected enhancement bonus is a function of level; some powers and properties scale, while others do not.

There's also a logical problem here. Immediately upon donning the magical equipment, all of your inherent bonuses go away even if there is no power or property associated with the item. This means, if you use the parcel system as written, the house rule ceases to function in any meaningful way at about level 4-5, when the party can fill all slots with either found or purchased magic items. The party will be better off sticking to mundane items and saving up gear and gold until very high levels and buying the most powerful versions of everything they could ever want. Which is too far in the opposite direction for what I believe your goal is ("fearing that I'll gimp the players if I miss an item in a treasure hoard").

Another problem arises when you consider certain suboptimal combinations. Take a half-elf with decent Intelligence as a Cleric taking Thunderwave as the Dilettante power. The character is most likely going to focus on Strength and Wisdom, so Thunderwave isn't the best choice from that point, plus the character can't use wizard implements. But suddenly, even though that character can't use an implement with wizard powers at all, Thunderwave gets an enhancement bonus appropriate to the level of the character without ever having to invest in a Corellon's Implement or multiclassing into Wizard. Or what about a half-elf Fighter with decent Wisdom taking Call of the Beast (Druid), Grasping Shards (Invoker), or Vanguard's Lightning (Invoker again)? Potent combinations indeed, and that's before applying any other forms of gaining powers from other classes. It makes it far more optimal to take implement powers with non-implement classes, especially when considering multi-classing, Versatile Master, or the Eternal Seeker epic destiny. There are a lot of repercussions in the system that may not be immediately apparent.

I think it might be better to talk to the individual players about potentially making Legacy Items of their favorite items, replacing magic items from the parcels with increased power for their legacy items. I think this gets described in the AV. Or perhaps asking for a wish list as the DMG recommends. (Yeah, I'm aware neither one will really work with Shara-Lyn, but Dhaos, Rolen, Abigail, and Tordek will all pull it together, and then you only have to worry about planning for one character instead of five.) It's one thing to worry that you're shorting a player unfairly, but it's another thing entirely when one character chooses to focus on one aspect above another (AC over attack/damage, or NADs over AC, or something to that effect). I don't see an easy way to make this workable right away; I will give it some thought before next game.
#6
TheBouncyPherret
Apr 12, 2009 16:48:15 Do you have the Adventurer's Vault? There's a section in the back that talks about upgrading the PCs current equipment automatically, instead of giving them new items. In other words, instead of the PCs finding a +3 flaming longsword to replace their +2 version, the +2 just becomes a +3.

It's still taken out of the normal parcels you'd give, but the item itself becomes better instead of getting a new one.

Otherwise, if you'd like, I have my own ideas on running a low magic game. Don't forget to check back tomorrow morning (8AM central time) for part 2. Basically, part 2 changes the enhancement bonus table. +1 is level 3, and +2 and up is at the appropriate level for that item (+2 is level 6, since it's a level 6 item).

TBP
#7
fbelanger
May 04, 2009 18:27:26 For my campaign I'm trying to use a new system.

At each new level you can craft 1 item of your level regardless of class, feat or ritual.

Players will have what they want, and an item of your level is never unbalanced.
If your consider all body slot, it will take around 8 levels to do the complete rotation of new item.

Anyway I can not stand a price over millions GP for a single item. We are in a fantasy world, please leave out interest rate....

There will still be place to magic treasure with purpose and background, not only to equip and leveled the party.

F

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 fponkdamn Apr 11, 2009 18:10:02	Here's the idea. I don't like how the game more or less forces me to provide my players with a steady stream of magic weapons, armor and implements in order to stay competitive. I don't mind the math of it, I just don't like the flavor. I understand monsters are balanced according to the idea that players will have these items increasing their attacks and defenses, so I don't want to deny that to them, nor do I want to re-balance every monster. Instead, what do y'all think of the following house rule? All players will get a +1 Enchancement Bonus to all attack rolls, damage rolls, and Defenses (AC, Reflex, Fortitude, and Will) at levels 1, 6, 11, 16, 21, and 26. This automatic bonus removes the need for magic items just to "keep up." Players would still want items, of course, for the critical damage bonus, special properties, etc, so magic items are still cool to get. But I don't end up fearing that I'll gimp the players if I miss an item in a treasure hoard. In order to keep low-level items with good properties from being way too good in this system, there's also a caveat to the rule: "If a character has an item that provides an enchancement bonus to either weapon attacks/damage, implement attacks/damage, AC, or NADs, the innate enhancement bonus to that category is surpressed, even if it would normall be higher." So, if you're level 6, you have a +2 to all attacks. If you want to use a +1 Duelists Weapon, you can - but you lower yourself to +1 to attack. This way, 25th-level characters don't just buy the level 1 versions of weapons in order to get the properties, etc. You can also still "beat" the innate bonus with found treasure - if you're level 3, you have a natural +1 enhancement bonus to attacks, but if you find a +2 sword, you can use it and get the extra +1. And of course, I'll overall lower the amount of treasure given, but not by much. Since this bonus doesn't stack with treasure, it just "fills in the gaps," and provides what the game assumes players will have anyway, it seems pretty safe. Thoughts? - Johnny
#2 salla Apr 11, 2009 18:43:05	I don't see any need for the nerfing of the automatic enhancement bonus just because you're using the item's power. In a regular game, if someone liked the power, he could just have his (say) Duelist's Weapon upgraded from +1 to +2 with the money he's found/residuum gained from disenchanting other items he's not using.
#3 fponkdamn Apr 11, 2009 19:07:17	The reason to nerf the automatic bonus if someone uses a lower-level weapon is to keep the economy going. If the automatic bonus applies anyway, then a character could just use the same +1 duelist's weapon throughout all 30 levels, since they'd get the +6 to attack and damage at level 26 anyway. This way, players still need to get better magic items if they want cool abilities, they're just not penalized by the game system if they don't have one.
#4 bone_naga Apr 11, 2009 20:54:29	The reason to nerf the automatic bonus if someone uses a lower-level weapon is to keep the economy going. If the automatic bonus applies anyway, then a character could just use the same +1 duelist's weapon throughout all 30 levels, since they'd get the +6 to attack and damage at level 26 anyway. This way, players still need to get better magic items if they want cool abilities, they're just not penalized by the game system if they don't have one. I think the desire to have better magic items will always be there, regardless. However, I think it might break suspension of disbelief if the players find that their magic items lose effectiveness over time (granted this loss is relative, as the item stays the same but they improve, but you get the idea). A player shouldn't one day decide to discard his favorite magic sword because now that he hit level 10 or whatever its no longer to his benefit to use it. He should get rid of it because he found something better.
#5 EmpactWB Apr 11, 2009 22:28:05	(For those who don't know, I'm one of the player's in the OP's game. I'll be writing in a general form, but the examples are mostly drawn from the game itself to show where this would have a definite impact on the game.) One problem here is with unenchanted weapons. A plain +X weapon is literally a waste of space if your level or lower. You get the same benefit from a mundane weapon. For instance, a level 6 character with a +2 longsword and a mundane longsword has equal chances to hit and deals the exact same damage with either one. If he has instead a +1 longsword and a mundane longsword, he suffers a -1 to attacks and damage for using the magic weapon over the mundane one. A character should never have a higher attack/damage with a mundane version of a weapon compared to a magical version of it, regardless of the properties/powers it possesses. In other words, deliberately reducing the enhancement bonus, whether it comes from a character or the item itself, is not a balancing factor in line with the design precepts of 4E. The expected enhancement bonus is a function of level; some powers and properties scale, while others do not. There's also a logical problem here. Immediately upon donning the magical equipment, all of your inherent bonuses go away even if there is no power or property associated with the item. This means, if you use the parcel system as written, the house rule ceases to function in any meaningful way at about level 4-5, when the party can fill all slots with either found or purchased magic items. The party will be better off sticking to mundane items and saving up gear and gold until very high levels and buying the most powerful versions of everything they could ever want. Which is too far in the opposite direction for what I believe your goal is ("fearing that I'll gimp the players if I miss an item in a treasure hoard"). Another problem arises when you consider certain suboptimal combinations. Take a half-elf with decent Intelligence as a Cleric taking Thunderwave as the Dilettante power. The character is most likely going to focus on Strength and Wisdom, so Thunderwave isn't the best choice from that point, plus the character can't use wizard implements. But suddenly, even though that character can't use an implement with wizard powers at all, Thunderwave gets an enhancement bonus appropriate to the level of the character without ever having to invest in a Corellon's Implement or multiclassing into Wizard. Or what about a half-elf Fighter with decent Wisdom taking Call of the Beast (Druid), Grasping Shards (Invoker), or Vanguard's Lightning (Invoker again)? Potent combinations indeed, and that's before applying any other forms of gaining powers from other classes. It makes it far more optimal to take implement powers with non-implement classes, especially when considering multi-classing, Versatile Master, or the Eternal Seeker epic destiny. There are a lot of repercussions in the system that may not be immediately apparent. I think it might be better to talk to the individual players about potentially making Legacy Items of their favorite items, replacing magic items from the parcels with increased power for their legacy items. I think this gets described in the AV. Or perhaps asking for a wish list as the DMG recommends. (Yeah, I'm aware neither one will really work with Shara-Lyn, but Dhaos, Rolen, Abigail, and Tordek will all pull it together, and then you only have to worry about planning for one character instead of five.) It's one thing to worry that you're shorting a player unfairly, but it's another thing entirely when one character chooses to focus on one aspect above another (AC over attack/damage, or NADs over AC, or something to that effect). I don't see an easy way to make this workable right away; I will give it some thought before next game.
#6 TheBouncyPherret Apr 12, 2009 16:48:15	Do you have the Adventurer's Vault? There's a section in the back that talks about upgrading the PCs current equipment automatically, instead of giving them new items. In other words, instead of the PCs finding a +3 flaming longsword to replace their +2 version, the +2 just becomes a +3. It's still taken out of the normal parcels you'd give, but the item itself becomes better instead of getting a new one. Otherwise, if you'd like, I have my own ideas on running a low magic game. Don't forget to check back tomorrow morning (8AM central time) for part 2. Basically, part 2 changes the enhancement bonus table. +1 is level 3, and +2 and up is at the appropriate level for that item (+2 is level 6, since it's a level 6 item). TBP
#7 fbelanger May 04, 2009 18:27:26	For my campaign I'm trying to use a new system. At each new level you can craft 1 item of your level regardless of class, feat or ritual. Players will have what they want, and an item of your level is never unbalanced. If your consider all body slot, it will take around 8 levels to do the complete rotation of new item. Anyway I can not stand a price over millions GP for a single item. We are in a fantasy world, please leave out interest rate.... There will still be place to magic treasure with purpose and background, not only to equip and leveled the party. F