1) Remove the class feature from the Initiate feats, leaving only the skill training and the paragon path access.
2) Merge the three power swap feats into a single feat that allows the character to swap a daily, an encounter, and a utility power.
3) Create a new category of class feature multiclass feat that allows the player to take any class feature from the class they multiclassed into, based on the formula that if it was at-will, now it is per encounter, and if it was per encounter, now it is a daily, etc.
Pretty simple, but I think it might be a bit more balanced and gives the player more flexible options. Opinions?
What does everyone think of these changes to the multiclassing feat system:
1) Remove the class feature from the Initiate feats, leaving only the skill training and the paragon path access.
2) Merge the three power swap feats into a single feat that allows the character to swap a daily, an encounter, and a utility power.
3) Create a new category of class feature multiclass feat that allows the player to take any class feature from the class they multiclassed into, based on the formula that if it was at-will, now it is per encounter, and if it was per encounter, now it is a daily, etc.
Pretty simple, but I think it might be a bit more balanced and gives the player more flexible options. Opinions?
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1- weakens the feats, but really depends on game style.
2- One feat to be able to swap out 3 powers? Too powerful. One feat to be able to swap out any one type of power, which can be taken multiple times, maybe not so much.
3- How do you regulate Combat Challenge, Prime Shot, Fighter Weapon Talent, Ranger or Rogue Fighting Styles, Rogue First Strike, Eldritch Pact, Ritual Casting, or the Wizard's Spellbook for some examples? Some things are inherent and static and wouldn't readily work with that concept. Additionally, some features are super strong and shouldn't be lent to other classes because the combos can make them broken really quick.
What does everyone think of these changes to the multiclassing feat system:
1) Remove the class feature from the Initiate feats, leaving only the skill training and the paragon path access.
2) Merge the three power swap feats into a single feat that allows the character to swap a daily, an encounter, and a utility power.
3) Create a new category of class feature multiclass feat that allows the player to take any class feature from the class they multiclassed into, based on the formula that if it was at-will, now it is per encounter, and if it was per encounter, now it is a daily, etc.
Pretty simple, but I think it might be a bit more balanced and gives the player more flexible options. Opinions?
Sneak Attack+Other striker damage = Win.
Double Marking = Win (That is being able to lock the leader with damage, and locking the regulars with multiple hits)
Marking+Striker Damage = Win
Area Affect+Marking on Attack = Win
Weapon Talent+Weapon Talent/Dagger Focus = Win (just for a simple explination, with 50% hit/miss, you have 75% of landing one blow and 25% of landing two, with talent added to that you get 79.75% of one blow and 30.25% of two blows, it raises the simple 5.5 for a battle from 6.875dpr to 7.71375)
Marking on attack+Twin Strike = Win
Overall, allowing free choice of what class features you want to mix together, creates ugly super powerful characters (kinda like 3.X). The objective of ANY multiclass change should be to keep Multiclass characters on the same power level as run of the mill characters. Honestly, I don't think Multiclass is out of whack, its less powerful then 1-3.X, but in 1,2 fighter/mages were simply more powerful then fighters or mages at least until the needing double XP kicked in to put them behind the universal mage by a spell level (9-10th level).
in 3.X martial classes all but HAD to multiclass to remain viable.
Right now in 4E the more powerful combinations are still multiclassed, a lot use the MC Paragon option.
Right now in 4E the more powerful combinations are still multiclassed, a lot use the MC Paragon option.
Interesting statement - I'm aware that Paragon MC can make some very viable builds, but I haven't heard of any that are considered to be powerhouses. Examples?
To the OP - I'm generally in agreement with the critiques made so far. Generally, any fix to multiclassing requires a fair amount of rebalancing - quick fixes tend to exacerbate the problems.
Interesting statement - I'm aware that Paragon MC can make some very viable builds, but I haven't heard of any that are considered to be powerhouses. Examples?
Give me a tick I will dig out the specific builds, but as I recall there was a feylock/paladin build, a rogue/fighter combo et cetra. They 'viable' to the folks of CO which means they are powerhouses by and large in normal campaigns.
1- weakens the feats, but really depends on game style.
They're basically Skill Training, plus you get access to the other multiclass feats plus access to paragon paths. That doesn't seem too weak to me, does it to you? I consider the Initiate feats in the PHB too powerful.
2- One feat to be able to swap out 3 powers? Too powerful. One feat to be able to swap out any one type of power, which can be taken multiple times, maybe not so much.
Could you elaborate more on why you think that feat would be too powerful? I would be much obliged. Anyone feel free to respond here.
3- How do you regulate Combat Challenge, Prime Shot, Fighter Weapon Talent, Ranger or Rogue Fighting Styles, Rogue First Strike, Eldritch Pact, Ritual Casting, or the Wizard's Spellbook for some examples? Some things are inherent and static and wouldn't readily work with that concept. Additionally, some features are super strong and shouldn't be lent to other classes because the combos can make them broken really quick.
Like I stated, if it's an "always-on" type of ability, it would now be 1/encounter. That covers Combat Challenge, Prime Shot, Fighter Weapon Talent, Ranger/Rogue Fighting Styles, and Eldritch Pact. Note that to utilize the Eldritch Pact properly, you would also need to take Warlock's Curse as a 1/encounter ability. Rogue First Strike would become a 1/day ability. Ritual Casting would be a 1/day ability. The Wizard's Spellbook is a tougher nut to crack. I would call it originally a 1/daily ability, and thus make it a 1/week or even 1/month ability for the multiclass feat.
I welcome any comments =)
The one thing of note in your response is about Ritual Casting - which can be covered simply by another feat - and the Spellbook, which isn't something that is possible to be used 1/d - it is something that would need to be used everyday for determine which powers to use plus gain extra rituals at particular levels. The Feature isn't an occasional use thing, it's something that is a constant and the char gains a benefit from simply leveling.
The other guys made more involved and accurate comments than I did.
Which responses did you find more involved and accurate? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that Aluman didn't realize that the new class feature feats I proposed are giving diluted class features, not full class features. And Rikiji didn't really respond at all, other than to ask Aluman for confirmation of their claims
The one thing of note in your response is about Ritual Casting - which can be covered simply by another feat
Correct. So no one would ever take it.
- and the Spellbook, which isn't something that is possible to be used 1/d
But the Spellbook is used 1/day - it's used 1/day when you prepare your spells after an extended rest.
- it is something that would need to be used everyday for determine which powers to use plus gain extra rituals at particular levels. The Feature isn't an occasional use thing, it's something that is a constant and the char gains a benefit from simply leveling.
The Rituals being added is a separate class feature from the dual-preparation. Note that they are both under bold headings. Any class features delineated like that are completely separate. You would not get both from one feat. Just look at any other class feature that is separated the same way to see why this is so.
Keep the suggestions coming
The Rituals being added is a separate class feature from the dual-preparation. Note that they are both under bold headings. Any class features delineated like that are completely separate. You would not get both from one feat. Just look at any other class feature that is separated the same way to see why this is so.
Keep the suggestions coming
Nope, they're all under the class feature of Spellbook. The bolded words are subsections of the feature itself, not separate features.
Wizard has 4 features: Arcane Implement Mastery, Cantrips, Ritual Casting, and Spellbook.
That being said, I would only want the free Rituals, I could care less about the alternate powers.
I don't think Aluman thought it wasn't diluted, just that combination of features and powers that aren't designed to be combined can get pretty imbalanced pretty quick, whether diluted or not. The examples he gave don't need to be used every round to be effective, only 1/e (and let's face it, generally 1/d also means 1/e).
Rikji noted that MC alteration tends to need more involved correction instead of simplistic, sweeping ones. That's something with which I agree.
The bottom line is that it depends on your GM style. If you can adapt quickly without overcompensating against the players if you realize you might've made a mistake, then go for it. If your players won't feel shafted when they figure out a cool combo and you decide you have to amend your House Rule to prevent it, go for it.
That being said, I also agree that the MC issue in 4e is lame as hell and is in need of serious revamp.
Point is that you'd need to playtest a significant variety of combined features with powers at varying levels to determine balance. There's been some speculation (based on a WotC article on the subject) that this is why MC-ing is what it is in 4e; they kinda just ran out of time to develop it thoroughly enough to make it what it should have been.
Right now, a rogue going into ranger gets hunter's quarry's DAMAGE 1/encounter.
Your way, I get to utilize HQ 1/encounter, and add the D8's EACH round.
See here is the thing that makes the big important diffrence between yours and the way its done right now.
Right now, a rogue going into ranger gets hunter's quarry's DAMAGE 1/encounter.
Your way, I get to utilize HQ 1/encounter, and add the D8's EACH round.
No, he's saying that anything that can be used at-will (which the extra dmg features are basically at-wills) would be only 1/e, pretty much just like it is now. Anything that is 1/e for the main class would become 1/d for the MC'd class.