Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 fjw70 Sep 17, 2009 15:08:21	I haven't played 4E very much yet, but I like it and think it is a good system.  However, the frequency of recharging the powers (i.e. per encounter or per day) seems a little artificail to me.  I have an alternate way of doing it that I would like some feedback from those that have more experience in the system than me.  (Note: I don't wish to discuss my opinion of the current system.  I really just want mechanical advise on the new system). Instead of having per encounter and per day powers I would rename them minor and major powers and let them be used whenever you wanted.  However, it would cost healing surges to use minor and major powers.  The theory is that using these powers require physical exertion and weakens you.  If you don't have enough HS left then each HS cost would instead cost you the equivalent in hit points. I am trying to decide how many HS each type of power would use and how many extra surges to give the PCs to account for this.  I am thinking of minor powers costing 1 + tier (1 for heroic, 2 for paragon, and 3 for epic) and major powers costing 3 + tier.  Assuming 3 encounters per game day it would take 10 extra surges at 1st level to let the PCs do what they can do now (i.e. 3 minor and 1 major power a day).  But I don't want to give them the full 10 since the flexibility of the this system should cost something.  I was thinking of giving just the tier value for minors and tier + 1 for majors.  This would mean 5 extra HS at first level and then additional HS as you level up and gain more powers. At this time the actual numbers are tentative and untested. Any comments on the theory and/or HS cost?
#2 slobo777a Sep 17, 2009 15:25:39	Healing surges are already strongly "coupled" to expected damage, in turn due to roles that the classes are expected to fill. Drawing on them as a resource for recharging powers might cause problems. You might want to consider a variation on the "Power Points" system used by some Psionic source classes.
#3 fjw70 Sep 17, 2009 15:32:25	Healing surges are already strongly "coupled" to expected damage, in turn due to roles that the classes are expected to fill. Drawing on them as a resource for recharging powers might cause problems. You might want to consider a variation on the "Power Points" system used by some Psionic source classes. I thought of using a PP system.  I am familiar with the 3.5 PP system in UA, but am not familiar with the psionic one (are referencing 3.5 or 4E psionics?). I like to idea of tying it to HS though. Any specific problems you can think of?  Do some classes not typically use all their surges each day and would benefit from this system more than others?  Do some classes not use their encounter and daily powers and would benefit from the aditional surges?
#4 MarkAtkinson Sep 17, 2009 15:44:15	The system already has a mechanic in place that represents the physical demands that encounter and daily powers place on the chars. Its the short and extended reast required to "recharge" them. I think linking powers off of HS will probably be unbalancing, with some players trying to horde their HS and end up dragging combat out even longer by spamming at-wills. At least with the system at the moment they are, for the most part, seperate resources and a player can see exactly what s/he has left. Just a thought.
#5 Stuntman Sep 17, 2009 15:50:47	First of all, this thread belongs in the Homebrew/House Rules forum.  I suggest that you request that this thread be moved there. As for tying them to healing surges, I still see an issue because the current healing surges given to each class is really tied to how much damage they are expected to sustain over the course of a day.  Encounter and daily powers are used roughly the same amount of time amongst all classes.  Tying healing surges to encounter and daily powers would not work out because some classes like the Wizard has very few healing surges, whereas Infernal Warlocks have many more. The other issue I can see is having the same pool of resources for both daily and encounter powers.  I can see that players may end up just using encounter powers if they draw from the same power pool as dailies.  I would expect that dailies would cost more, but the actual effect may not be that much more that it may not be worth using some dailies over encounters. Lastly, the game is designed so that it is difficult to use the same power in the same encounter.  You may get a number of encounter powers, but you normally cannot use the same one twice.  If you have a pool of encounter resources, players may end up using the same encounter power twice.  This can be very powerful indeed.  The psionic rules in 4E has new mechanics for encounter-like powers that are augments of at-wills.  There is a power point pool for encounter powers.  They compensate for the ability to use the same encounter-like power multiple times in the same encounter.  You will likely have to make adjustments as well.
#6 slobo777a Sep 17, 2009 15:51:27	The only specific problem I can think of if that there is nothing to stop the PCs popping all the HS (including their healing reserve) like sweeties, then take an extended rest. Everything else is just nerves I'd have messing with a core mechanic which works very nicely in 4E as a limited resource per battle, but that allows continuing play from one battle to the next.
#7 undrave Sep 17, 2009 15:52:20	Healing surges are already strongly "coupled" to expected damage, in turn due to roles that the classes are expected to fill. Drawing on them as a resource for recharging powers might cause problems. You might want to consider a variation on the "Power Points" system used by some Psionic source classes. I thought of using a PP system.  I am familiar with the 3.5 PP system in UA, but am not familiar with the psionic one (are referencing 3.5 or 4E psionics?). I like to idea of tying it to HS though. Any specific problems you can think of?  Do some classes not typically use all their surges each day and would benefit from this system more than others?  Do some classes not use their encounter and daily powers and would benefit from the aditional surges? Essentially the 4e Psion doesn't get encounter power. At any one time he has (I believe) 3 different At-Will powers and gain different more powerful ones as he rise in level instead of encounter powers. his At-Will powers are 'Augmentable' by spending Power Points (1 or 2 for the early ones) to varying degrees. If you spend your power points to grab the highest Augment you essentially turn your At-Will into an Encounter power. Dailies remain the same as Power Points are a per-encounter ressource. Though Psion dailies are rather boring IMO.
#8 fjw70 Sep 17, 2009 17:48:54	Maybe my initial post was too aggressive.  After reading the responses and doing some more thinking I have a modified system. Keep the encounter and daily powers usage, and surges as is, but allow additional usage of encounter and daily powers by using surges.  I am thinking maybe 3 surges to use an extra encounter power and 5 surges to use an extra daily power.  This system would be less flexible but less able to be abused. The biggest issue would be the players using up all their surges on extra powers in one encounter and then heading "home" for an extented rest.  But this metagaming can be mitiagted by the DM (e.g. PCs getting ambushed on their way home).
#9 dunhill Sep 17, 2009 21:02:14	With this system your players will either: a) never use their encounter or daily powers so they can survive or b) use up all their encounter or daily powers and die real quick   I find my players use up most of their surges at the end of a day in game time, and they like it that way. Getting beat up and pulling through desperate times that may seem like the end for them makes it seem all the more exciting. I dunno, your system may work if you coddle your players a lot. If you find that every adventure your players usually dont have much of a scratch and all still have most of their surges then using surges for powers may work.
#10 Stuntman Sep 18, 2009 15:38:02	Maybe my initial post was too aggressive.  After reading the responses and doing some more thinking I have a modified system. Keep the encounter and daily powers usage, and surges as is, but allow additional usage of encounter and daily powers by using surges.  I am thinking maybe 3 surges to use an extra encounter power and 5 surges to use an extra daily power.  This system would be less flexible but less able to be abused. The biggest issue would be the players using up all their surges on extra powers in one encounter and then heading "home" for an extented rest.  But this metagaming can be mitiagted by the DM (e.g. PCs getting ambushed on their way home). The existing system is designed to reduce the possibility that players will blow all of their reources on one encounter and then rest.  Your system will cause this to happen more often.  You encourage players to blow their surges more quickly than normal.  Either that or players will simply not bother using this option at all and you end up with no change whatsoever. Your original post stated that you felt the encounter and daily power mechanic was unrealistic and that was the reason for your proposed system.  Well, that is more or less some of the complaints about 4E's encounter and daily powers.  That is something that at least I and some others have accepted and overlooked because the overall game play is pretty good.  The encounter and daily powers enable every character to pull off a super move from time to time and to make all characters manage their resources in a unified way. I'm wondering exactly what is the issue with 4E.  My impression is that you only played it briefly and didn't really give it a chance to try it out enough times because your percieved lack of realism just turned you off.  What do other players in your group think?  Do they have the same issues?  Are they enjoying or diskliking the game play?
#11 fjw70 Sep 18, 2009 15:50:46	The existing system is designed to reduce the possibility that players will blow all of their reources on one encounter and then rest.  Your system will cause this to happen more often.  I am not concerned with that.  A good DM can manage the 5 minute workday.  Players that abuse the system wouldn't last long. Your original post stated that you felt the encounter and daily power mechanic was unrealistic and that was the reason for your proposed system.  Well, that is more or less some of the complaints about 4E's encounter and daily powers.  That is something that at least I and some others have accepted and overlooked because the overall game play is pretty good.  The encounter and daily powers enable every character to pull off a super move from time to time and to make all characters manage their resources in a unified way. I'm wondering exactly what is the issue with 4E.  My impression is that you only played it briefly and didn't really give it a chance to try it out enough times because your percieved lack of realism just turned you off.  What do other players in your group think?  Do they have the same issues?  Are they enjoying or diskliking the game play? I don't have an issue with 4e (at least not in general).  In fact I tried to get my 3.5 group to do some 4e stuff and was met with everything from indifference to outright hostility (hostility towards at 4e not me). I don't see the 4e powers system as bad or unplayable but I like to tweek systems to my own preferences (i.e. playing 1e magic-users like 3.5 sorcerer back in the 80s). I like flexibility at the game table.  The like players having the option of using their last reserves of strength to pull off one last dramatic act and stuff like that.
#12 bruntfca Sep 18, 2009 19:28:25	You don't appear to be making much sense. First you say that the frequency of recharging powers is a problem. You go on to say that the 5 minute day is not a problem (as you say clearly a DM issue). So where is the issue? You can easily manage the frequency of recharging powers by managing rest periods.
#13 Rustmonster Sep 18, 2009 19:40:29	You do realize that a Healing Surge represents one quarter of the character's hitpoints. You are thinking of taxing the players one quarter of their hitpoints, plus an additional quarter per tier, just to use a marginally stronger ability that they used to be able to use once per encounter with no damage. On top of that, you've just made the game incredibly swingy. The players can either use those stronger abilities at the cost of one half to their one hundred percent of their hitpoint value, or they can go merrily along with their likely doubled hitpoint pool. Of course, they won't be able to get at it in most encounters, but it will make them able to continue for much longer each day. Leader powers are screwed. Healing word? Spend 2 healing surges to heal one healing surge worth of hitpoints. Splendid. I understand your complaint. You feel "per encounter" and "daily" to be arbitrary, so you want players to be able to use them all they want, at the cost of healing surges. It's just that the math doesn't add up. Again, it is using a resource that is equal to one quarter your hitpoint to use slightly more powerful abilities. It's not worth it. Your compensation is more healing surges, to match how many they'd use anyway. But then why not just let them use it how it is NOW? Instead you effectivly give them more HS for no reason. As well, you seem to assume "perfect" 3 encounter days, no more, no less. Anything else is too tough or too easy. One thing about 4E is that encounters of equal level, be they at the end or at the start of the day, are meant to be the same difficulty. You've just added a system where you are invulerable at the start of the day, but weaken every encounter. It encourages the 15 minute work day, just as 3E did. And fyi, "Any good DM" is not an excuse to make bad rules. If you assume this perfect 3 encounter day every day, then why don't you just say "you may use minor powers three times per day"?
#14 fjw70 Sep 18, 2009 19:51:02	You don't appear to be making much sense. First you say that the frequency of recharging powers is a problem. You go on to say that the 5 minute day is not a problem (as you say clearly a DM issue). So where is the issue? You can easily manage the frequency of recharging powers by managing rest periods. My motivation for this system is because I wish the power system was more realistic from an in-character perspective.
#15 fjw70 Sep 18, 2009 19:52:24	You do realize that a Healing Surge represents one quarter of the character's hitpoints. You are thinking of taxing the players one quarter of their hitpoints, plus an additional quarter per tier, just to use a marginally stronger ability that they used to be able to use once per encounter with no damage. On top of that, you've just made the game incredibly swingy. The players can either use those stronger abilities at the cost of one half to their one hundred percent of their hitpoint value, or they can go merrily along with their likely doubled hitpoint pool. Of course, they won't be able to get at it in most encounters, but it will make them able to continue for much longer each day. Leader powers are screwed. Healing word? Spend 2 healing surges to heal one healing surge worth of hitpoints. Splendid. I understand your complaint. You feel "per encounter" and "daily" to be arbitrary, so you want players to be able to use them all they want, at the cost of healing surges. It's just that the math doesn't add up. Again, it is using a resource that is equal to one quarter your hitpoint to use slightly more powerful abilities. It's not worth it. Your compensation is more healing surges, to match how many they'd use anyway. But then why not just let them use it how it is NOW? Instead you effectivly give them more HS for no reason. As well, you seem to assume "perfect" 3 encounter days, no more, no less. Anything else is too tough or too easy. One thing about 4E is that encounters of equal level, be they at the end or at the start of the day, are meant to be the same difficulty. You've just added a system where you are invulerable at the start of the day, but weaken every encounter. It encourages the 15 minute work day, just as 3E did. And fyi, "Any good DM" is not an excuse to make bad rules. If you assume this perfect 3 encounter day every day, then why don't you just say "you may use minor powers three times per day"? Wow you have some issues.  No need to be a jerk in a discussion of houserules.
#16 Rustmonster Sep 18, 2009 21:20:03	Wow you have some issues.  No need to be a jerk in a discussion of houserules. I'm just saying, you haven't thought this out. Ignore everything I said if you want and just feel insulted, or actually use what I said to help. Either way. PS: Houserules go in the Houserules forum. They are slightly below this.
#17 Stuntman Sep 18, 2009 21:38:37	My motivation for this system is because I wish the power system was more realistic from an in-character perspective. There have been some discussions regarding the realism of the power system in D&D.  Many of them draw inspriation form movies where you do see these super moves that the heros make, but you don't see the same super move over and over and over again.  Some suggestions on how the power system works is that for encounter powers, the enemies see the move and will be ready for it, so you cannot pull it off multiple times in the same encounter.  The daily powers may require ideal conditions for you to pull off.  I guess what I'm saying is that you probably have to come up with cinematic reasons to rationalise why encounter and daily powers cannot be used in multiples within a short time frame.  You can be creative with your rationalising and the reasons can be different depending on the class or power.  Although the power mechanics are unified amoungst all classes, you are not necessarily supposed to try to make the mechanics realistic.  You are supposed to look beyond the mechanics when describing the action in combat. The reason for the unified mechanics is for balance.  When you are playing and using your limited resource power, you're supposed to while in character overlook the fact that this move can only be used once per day or once per encounter and just roll with the fact that you used it and then use something else or an at-will shortly after.  The player knows the limitations of his powers.  The character just uses what he has available.
#18 fjw70 Sep 18, 2009 21:41:13	Wow you have some issues.  No need to be a jerk in a discussion of houserules. I'm just saying, you haven't thought this out. That is what discussions are for.  I was looking for polite discussion not snarky comments.   Ignore everything I said if you want and just feel insulted, or actually use what I said to help. Either way. I am not insulted.  I am just sometimes amazed at the lack of politeness on internet forums.
#19 fjw70 Sep 18, 2009 21:45:25	My motivation for this system is because I wish the power system was more realistic from an in-character perspective. There have been some discussions regarding the realism of the power system in D&D.  Many of them draw inspriation form movies where you do see these super moves that the heros make, but you don't see the same super move over and over and over again.  Some suggestions on how the power system works is that for encounter powers, the enemies see the move and will be ready for it, so you cannot pull it off multiple times in the same encounter.  The daily powers may require ideal conditions for you to pull off.  I guess what I'm saying is that you probably have to come up with cinematic reasons to rationalise why encounter and daily powers cannot be used in multiples within a short time frame.  You can be creative with your rationalising and the reasons can be different depending on the class or power.  Although the power mechanics are unified amoungst all classes, you are not necessarily supposed to try to make the mechanics realistic.  You are supposed to look beyond the mechanics when describing the action in combat. The reason for the unified mechanics is for balance.  When you are playing and using your limited resource power, you're supposed to while in character overlook the fact that this move can only be used once per day or once per encounter and just roll with the fact that you used it and then use something else or an at-will shortly after.  The player knows the limitations of his powers.  The character just uses what he has available. I appreciate the comments but I wasn't really looking to debate the realism of the 4th edition powers (I don't want this to become an edition war thread).  As I said I only mentioned that was my motivation.  I am just interested in the mechanical implications.
#20 Rustmonster Sep 18, 2009 22:11:44	That is what discussions are for.  I was looking for polite discussion not snarky comments. Fine. I'll distill what I said then: - Healing Surges are worth 1/4 of your HP value. This is too much to give for an Encounter power, or even Daily. - The assumption that the players will have less HS than you propose and a certain number of Encounter and Daily powers per day will make the system swingy. - With persistance a party could use the extra HS to make longer days. - Leader standard "Spend a HS" Encounter powers are now useless, as they cost more than they give. - Your houserule assumes that the characters always have the same amount of encounters at the same difficulty each day. Otherwise, they math changes. - This system is almost equivilant to simply giving the characters X uses of a "Minor" (formerly Encounter) power every day, but adds the use of HS, throwing off the math. Better? Will you actually read it now? I am not insulted.  I am just sometimes amazed at the lack of politeness on internet forums. You seriously need a thicker skin. I wasn't a jerk, I was not rude. I was simply pointing out that you are drasticly changing the system in a way that makes those powers silly to use, because they quickly drain your HP reserves.
#21 Stuntman Sep 19, 2009 2:47:02	I appreciate the comments but I wasn't really looking to debate the realism of the 4th edition powers (I don't want this to become an edition war thread).  As I said I only mentioned that was my motivation.  I am just interested in the mechanical implications. The realism has already been debated.  It just thought I'd point it out as I wasn't sure if you are aware of that discussion.  I guess you are looking for realism within the mechanics or to alter the mechanics to add some realism from your point of view. Anyway, regarding the mechanical implications, the price for using an extra encounter or daily power seems very high.  If I were given the option, I probably would not use it unless I felt that the situation is very dire such as if I thought I was going to die anyway or close to it.  The cost is very high for an extra encounter.  Most likely, if I have used all available healing powers and really needed a big effect, I would then blow a bunch of healing surges for an extra daily or encounter.  At low levels, encounters and even some dailies do not appear to be so significant to warrent blowing multiple healing surges.  I think that higher level powers are probably worth it more particularly if the effect can stun or likewise cause a creature to lose actions for multiple rounds. It seems that each use of blowing healing surges for extra dailies and encounters pretty much reduces the number of encounters you would be winning to complete in a day by one or even 2.  If I think it is the last encounter in the day, I may be more likely to use this option. I tend to think that spending an action point can potentially make a bigger impact than blowing healing surges for an encounter or daily.  Just like an action point, I probably won't blow multiple healing surges in a single encounter.
#22 veok Sep 19, 2009 20:03:00	Healing surges are already strongly "coupled" to expected damage, in turn due to roles that the classes are expected to fill. Drawing on them as a resource for recharging powers might cause problems. You might want to consider a variation on the "Power Points" system used by some Psionic source classes. I thought the same thing. Perhaps every character has a pool of "power points" which replenishes after each encounter. Encounters drain the pool, but dailies either a) drain it faster, or b) reduce the size of the pool (until your next extended rest of course.)
#23 fjw70 Sep 21, 2009 8:45:47	Again I appreciate all of the feedback I have received.  It have given me some things to consider. I actually have sevral motivations for looking at the power system. 1) As I said I would like a less artificial way (from an in-game perspective) to do powers. 2) I like flexibility. 3) As a personal preference I really like the idea of having a single life force pool as a limiting factor for things like damage and power usage.  It would be a real tangible mechanic for powers to drain an idividual.  Again, not saying the power system is wrong.  This is just a personal preference.   Forgetting #3 I have another idea.  Power swapping.  This idea depends on my assumption that higher level powers are at least as powerful as all lower level powers of the same type (i.e. encounter and daily) and that Dailies of the same level or higher are more powerful than Encounters. This mechanic would be that you can recharge an encounter power by sacrificing a same or higher level encounter or daily power, and you can recharge a daily by sacrificing a higher level daily.
#24 Stuntman Sep 21, 2009 13:12:13	2) I like flexibility. ..  I have another idea.  Power swapping.  This idea depends on my assumption that higher level powers are at least as powerful as all lower level powers of the same type (i.e. encounter and daily) and that Dailies of the same level or higher are more powerful than Encounters. This mechanic would be that you can recharge an encounter power by sacrificing a same or higher level encounter or daily power, and you can recharge a daily by sacrificing a higher level daily. The ability to use the same non-at-will power multiple times is given only to a few select builds.  If you allow every character this ability, you end up diminishing the value of these other builds.  The human paragon path gives you the ability to choose an encounter power a second time.  The psionic characters that use power points also have this ability to use an encounter-like power.  The barbarian has the rage strike ability that has a similar effect to burning another daily.  Giving a similar, but superior ability to all classes really diminishes this benefit of these select builds.
#25 fjw70 Sep 21, 2009 15:01:22	2) I like flexibility. ..  I have another idea.  Power swapping.  This idea depends on my assumption that higher level powers are at least as powerful as all lower level powers of the same type (i.e. encounter and daily) and that Dailies of the same level or higher are more powerful than Encounters. This mechanic would be that you can recharge an encounter power by sacrificing a same or higher level encounter or daily power, and you can recharge a daily by sacrificing a higher level daily. The ability to use the same non-at-will power multiple times is given only to a few select builds.  If you allow every character this ability, you end up diminishing the value of these other builds.  The human paragon path gives you the ability to choose an encounter power a second time.  The psionic characters that use power points also have this ability to use an encounter-like power.  The barbarian has the rage strike ability that has a similar effect to burning another daily.  Giving a similar, but superior ability to all classes really diminishes this benefit of these select builds. I would be willing to make that trade-off.  I still need to look at the Psionic PP system.
#26 Stuntman Sep 21, 2009 15:34:42	The ability to use the same non-at-will power multiple times is given only to a few select builds.  If you allow every character this ability, you end up diminishing the value of these other builds.  The human paragon path gives you the ability to choose an encounter power a second time.  The psionic characters that use power points also have this ability to use an encounter-like power.  The barbarian has the rage strike ability that has a similar effect to burning another daily.  Giving a similar, but superior ability to all classes really diminishes this benefit of these select builds. I would be willing to make that trade-off.  I still need to look at the Psionic PP system. Would you be willing to give something to those players who play those builds to compensate them for giving a similar ability to all other builds?  Some players may feel a little ripped off if you give an ability they have to to everyone else.
#27 fjw70 Sep 21, 2009 15:52:53	The ability to use the same non-at-will power multiple times is given only to a few select builds.  If you allow every character this ability, you end up diminishing the value of these other builds.  The human paragon path gives you the ability to choose an encounter power a second time.  The psionic characters that use power points also have this ability to use an encounter-like power.  The barbarian has the rage strike ability that has a similar effect to burning another daily.  Giving a similar, but superior ability to all classes really diminishes this benefit of these select builds. I would be willing to make that trade-off.  I still need to look at the Psionic PP system. Would you be willing to give something to those players who play those builds to compensate them for giving a similar ability to all other builds?  Some players may feel a little ripped off if you give an ability they have to to everyone else. Maybe, but no one would force them to play those builds.  There are lots of options.
#28 Kensan_Oni Sep 21, 2009 18:04:11	How about a halfway point? My first statement is that you should really play it as is first, before playing with changing it, as it really is more then adequate for what it does as it stands. However, if you want to have it be 'charged' by inner fevor, use Hit Points instead of Healing Surges. Going down this path, though, will lead to broken-ness. My first instinct would be to use a multiplier, but that ends up too cheap for early level dailies, and to expensive otherwise. Using Level +5 hp for encounters and Level +10 for Dailies probably works best, but still outstrips players based on level, although it's closer, and it STILL allows for use of low level dailies more often. No matter which way you go with this, that's a problem. Also, something just tells me you are not ready or willing to deal with the potential brokenness of using HS instead of a more time based system. A Sleep Spell every round will not be fun for you the DM, and I have a hard time imagining the wizard not doing it. This also leads back towards the whole '15 minute' work week that happens when you have really limited resources. THe Less limited resources you have in a game, the better it tends to work.
#29 Kensan_Oni Sep 21, 2009 18:09:37	Forgetting #3 I have another idea.  Power swapping.  This idea depends on my assumption that higher level powers are at least as powerful as all lower level powers of the same type (i.e. encounter and daily) and that Dailies of the same level or higher are more powerful than Encounters. This mechanic would be that you can recharge an encounter power by sacrificing a same or higher level encounter or daily power, and you can recharge a daily by sacrificing a higher level daily. This idea is not a horrible one, and probably would be okay, but there will be problem powers (As the above mentioned Sleep) that will create issues for you if you go down that route.  Also, for your sanity, restrict rechargings to Same Type Powers. You can recharge a Daily Attack with a Daily Attack, not recharge a Daily Attack with a Daily Utility. That will curb down on the power creep a lot. (Yeah, in case you can't tell, there are powers in this game that become broken if they are usable more then once a combat. It's one of the reasons that Veteran's Armor got nuked.)
#30 veok Sep 21, 2009 18:27:51	Idea! What if you increased the significance of encounter powers, and made it so "daily" powers could only be used with an action point? You're using daily powers more often and tying in their high power level to the inherant restrictions of an action point. That might be a bad way to go if your players like to actionpoint + shift / stand from prone / not attack with an action point.
#31 fjw70 Sep 22, 2009 15:04:50	I just realized that this tread got moved.  I should have posted here first anyway.   How about a halfway point? My first statement is that you should really play it as is first, before playing with changing it, as it really is more then adequate for what it does as it stands. I am not playing 4e right now.  I am in a 3.5 groups.  I tried to get the group to play some 4e but they don't have any interest in it.  When I do DM 4e I don't plan to jump into these house rules right away.  I plan to play btb for a while and then customize over time.  I just like doing some advanced planning.   However, if you want to have it be 'charged' by inner fevor, use Hit Points instead of Healing Surges. Going down this path, though, will lead to broken-ness. My first instinct would be to use a multiplier, but that ends up too cheap for early level dailies, and to expensive otherwise. Using Level +5 hp for encounters and Level +10 for Dailies probably works best, but still outstrips players based on level, although it's closer, and it STILL allows for use of low level dailies more often. No matter which way you go with this, that's a problem. I will take a look at that.   Also, something just tells me you are not ready or willing to deal with the potential brokenness of using HS instead of a more time based system. A Sleep Spell every round will not be fun for you the DM, and I have a hard time imagining the wizard not doing it. This also leads back towards the whole '15 minute' work week that happens when you have really limited resources. THe Less limited resources you have in a game, the better it tends to work. The 15 minute workday doesn't really concern me.  As a DM I can prevent those sorts of things (e.g. ambushes as the group goes back to town, restocking dungeons for the turn trip, etc.).
#32 fjw70 Sep 22, 2009 15:06:19	Forgetting #3 I have another idea.  Power swapping.  This idea depends on my assumption that higher level powers are at least as powerful as all lower level powers of the same type (i.e. encounter and daily) and that Dailies of the same level or higher are more powerful than Encounters. This mechanic would be that you can recharge an encounter power by sacrificing a same or higher level encounter or daily power, and you can recharge a daily by sacrificing a higher level daily. This idea is not a horrible one, and probably would be okay, but there will be problem powers (As the above mentioned Sleep) that will create issues for you if you go down that route.  Also, for your sanity, restrict rechargings to Same Type Powers. You can recharge a Daily Attack with a Daily Attack, not recharge a Daily Attack with a Daily Utility. That will curb down on the power creep a lot. (Yeah, in case you can't tell, there are powers in this game that become broken if they are usable more then once a combat. It's one of the reasons that Veteran's Armor got nuked.) At this time I was just considering the attack powers.  I haven't gotten into the Utilities yet.   Idea! What if you increased the significance of encounter powers, and made it so "daily" powers could only be used with an action point? You're using daily powers more often and tying in their high power level to the inherant restrictions of an action point. That might be a bad way to go if your players like to actionpoint + shift / stand from prone / not attack with an action point. Something to think about.  Thanks.
#33 Stuntman Sep 24, 2009 17:08:23	I am not playing 4e right now.  I am in a 3.5 groups.  I tried to get the group to play some 4e but they don't have any interest in it.  When I do DM 4e I don't plan to jump into these house rules right away.  I plan to play btb for a while and then customize over time.  I just like doing some advanced planning. You may find that when you actually do play 4E, your impressions of the rules may be different than what you read about it.  Mine certainly was after I started playing.
#34 DM_Nel Sep 27, 2009 10:59:36	I'd recommend leaving the system as is and supplement it by giving the players the choice to use healing surge if they want to re-use encounter or daily powers.  Since this gives them a significant edge, I'd say 1/4 of their total per day HS to recharge an encounter power and 1/2 of their total per day HS to recharge a daily.  This represents the drain on their physical/mental reserves needed to tap into these powers again in such a short time.  They can decide for themselves if the cost is worth the risk.