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Alternate skills system

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
tylandras
Mar 04, 2012 9:28:26 I'm not particularly fond of the current skills system in 4E and wanted to develop my own for use with my gaming group. What I've come up with is outlined below.

Skills

The system uses a tiered approach.

Skills would progress as follows:

1. Weak (Unusually poor at a skill)

2. Average (Normal proficiency)

3. Skilled (Trained or naturally proficient)

4. Exceptional (Experienced or truly outstanding)

5. Legendary (Skill without equal)

For a challenge below your skill tier you would automatically pass, or perhaps failure on a natural 1.

For a challenge at your skill tier you would need a 6+ (75% chance of success).

For a challenge 1 tier above your skill tier you would need an 11+ (50% chance of success).

For a challenge 2 tiers above your skill tier you would need a 16+ (25% chance of success).

For a challenge 3 tiers above your skill tier success is impossible, or perhaps requires a natural 20.

The 12 available skills and what they are keyed off of would be:

Athletics - Strength (Physical ability e.g. running, jumping, climbing trees)

Stealth - Strength (Careful control of physical movement)

Endurance - Constitution (Physical condition and resilience)

Perception - Constitution (Again physical condition; these are eyes and ears we're talking about)

Acrobatics - Dexterity (Flips 'n' stuff)

Thievery - Dexterity (Good with hands)

Arcana - Intelligence (Studied knowledge of magic)

History - Intelligence (Studied knowledge of peoples)

Nature - Wisdom (Understanding of the natural world)

Heal - Wisdom (Understanding of living creatures in particular)

Ethos - Charisma (Incorporating all the personality skills)

Insight - Charisma (Understanding the motives and personalities of others)

For the most part I can justify what each skill is keyed off of. Some are dubious but I wanted an even distribution.

For degree of proficiency in each skill:

A score of 8-9 (-1) Weak

A score of 10-13 (+0, +1) Average

A score of 14-19 (+2, +3, +4) Skilled

A score of 20-27 (+5, +6, +7, +8) Exceptional

A score of 28-30+ (+9, +10, ...) Legendary

The number of trained skills remains that allowed by each class. Training in a skill increases its tier by 1. There are no class restrictions for what skills a character can take.

Constructive comments are welcome.

#2
bone_naga
Mar 04, 2012 10:44:03 Some of your ability scores (like STR for Stealth and CON for Perception) make no sense. If skill training only increases a skill's proficiency by 1 tier, do you have additional ways or free extra training slots to boost skills or do you expect them to eat into their existing supply of feats?
#3
tylandras
Mar 04, 2012 11:26:47
Some of your ability scores (like STR for Stealth and CON for Perception) make no sense. If skill training only increases a skill's proficiency by 1 tier, do you have additional ways or free extra training slots to boost skills or do you expect them to eat into their existing supply of feats?

Thanks for the response.

Con for perception was based off of the condition/health of the character's senses as it were. Wisdom hardly seemed any more sensible to me.

The stealth was mostly just to give strength a second skill. I've never liked that most of the best skills are focussed around dexterity and wisdom. it can make many classes next to useless in skill challenges.

As per the last section, every skill will have the proficiency associated with its key attribute to begin with.

e.g. A rogue with 20 dex and 14 cha will already be at the exceptional tier for acrobatics and thievery, and skilled for ethos and insight. They could then use their substantial allocation of skills to boost these further or train in other areas.

Allowing more than one skill point to be assigned to a skill would let you get to the higher tiers in it.

#4
bone_naga
Mar 04, 2012 12:02:09 But CON is generally physical health. WIS is, among other things, a combination of how good your senses are combined with your mind's ability to single out the important things that your senses are picking up.

Yeah, STR doesn't have a lot going for it skill-wise, and neither does CON. Historically, neither have really needed it, though, since STR was always important for melee attacks and CON determined HP.

Also, just changing scores just because doesn't help if the new scores don't make sense or they have serious impacts on classes and concepts that rely on them (like non-brutal scoundrel rogues suddenly sucking at Stealth compared to a fighter who gets skill training in it).
#5
tylandras
Mar 04, 2012 13:46:33
But CON is generally physical health. WIS is, among other things, a combination of how good your senses are combined with your mind's ability to single out the important things that your senses are picking up.

Yeah, STR doesn't have a lot going for it skill-wise, and neither does CON. Historically, neither have really needed it, though, since STR was always important for melee attacks and CON determined HP.

Also, just changing scores just because doesn't help if the new scores don't make sense or they have serious impacts on classes and concepts that rely on them (like non-brutal scoundrel rogues suddenly sucking at Stealth compared to a fighter who gets skill training in it).

So you think it would be better just to leave the stealth and perception with dexterity and wisdom? Or are there skills that you would shift around?

With the number of skill points available to a rogue, spending 3 to put stealth to its maximum if they felt like they needed it is always possible.

I am biased, however, as I don't like the stealth rules.
#6
bone_naga
Mar 04, 2012 15:09:51
So you think it would be better just to leave the stealth and perception with dexterity and wisdom? Or are there skills that you would shift around?

With the number of skill points available to a rogue, spending 3 to put stealth to its maximum if they felt like they needed it is always possible.

I am biased, however, as I don't like the stealth rules.

To use skills and ability scores as presented, yes I would recommend keeping those two as is. However, since you are houseruling anyway, my current plan for my houseruled version of 4e is to decouple skills from ability scores. What score you use will depend on the specific use of that skill.

So Intimidate might be STR if you are just trying to scare some street thug off through a show of brute force, or CHA for interrogations, blackmail, or any of its more subtle applications.

Stealth will normally be DEX to sneak around, but if you are attempting to camouflage an unmoving person (including yourself) or object, it might be INT instead.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tylandras Mar 04, 2012 9:28:26	I'm not particularly fond of the current skills system in 4E and wanted to develop my own for use with my gaming group. What I've come up with is outlined below. Skills The system uses a tiered approach. Skills would progress as follows: 1. Weak (Unusually poor at a skill) 2. Average (Normal proficiency) 3. Skilled (Trained or naturally proficient) 4. Exceptional (Experienced or truly outstanding) 5. Legendary (Skill without equal) For a challenge below your skill tier you would automatically pass, or perhaps failure on a natural 1. For a challenge at your skill tier you would need a 6+ (75% chance of success). For a challenge 1 tier above your skill tier you would need an 11+ (50% chance of success). For a challenge 2 tiers above your skill tier you would need a 16+ (25% chance of success). For a challenge 3 tiers above your skill tier success is impossible, or perhaps requires a natural 20. The 12 available skills and what they are keyed off of would be: Athletics - Strength (Physical ability e.g. running, jumping, climbing trees) Stealth - Strength (Careful control of physical movement) Endurance - Constitution (Physical condition and resilience) Perception - Constitution (Again physical condition; these are eyes and ears we're talking about) Acrobatics - Dexterity (Flips 'n' stuff) Thievery - Dexterity (Good with hands) Arcana - Intelligence (Studied knowledge of magic) History - Intelligence (Studied knowledge of peoples) Nature - Wisdom (Understanding of the natural world) Heal - Wisdom (Understanding of living creatures in particular) Ethos - Charisma (Incorporating all the personality skills) Insight - Charisma (Understanding the motives and personalities of others) For the most part I can justify what each skill is keyed off of. Some are dubious but I wanted an even distribution. For degree of proficiency in each skill: A score of 8-9 (-1) Weak A score of 10-13 (+0, +1) Average A score of 14-19 (+2, +3, +4) Skilled A score of 20-27 (+5, +6, +7, +8) Exceptional A score of 28-30+ (+9, +10, ...) Legendary The number of trained skills remains that allowed by each class. Training in a skill increases its tier by 1. There are no class restrictions for what skills a character can take. Constructive comments are welcome.
#2 bone_naga Mar 04, 2012 10:44:03	Some of your ability scores (like STR for Stealth and CON for Perception) make no sense. If skill training only increases a skill's proficiency by 1 tier, do you have additional ways or free extra training slots to boost skills or do you expect them to eat into their existing supply of feats?
#3 tylandras Mar 04, 2012 11:26:47	Some of your ability scores (like STR for Stealth and CON for Perception) make no sense. If skill training only increases a skill's proficiency by 1 tier, do you have additional ways or free extra training slots to boost skills or do you expect them to eat into their existing supply of feats? Thanks for the response. Con for perception was based off of the condition/health of the character's senses as it were. Wisdom hardly seemed any more sensible to me. The stealth was mostly just to give strength a second skill. I've never liked that most of the best skills are focussed around dexterity and wisdom. it can make many classes next to useless in skill challenges. As per the last section, every skill will have the proficiency associated with its key attribute to begin with. e.g. A rogue with 20 dex and 14 cha will already be at the exceptional tier for acrobatics and thievery, and skilled for ethos and insight. They could then use their substantial allocation of skills to boost these further or train in other areas. Allowing more than one skill point to be assigned to a skill would let you get to the higher tiers in it.
#4 bone_naga Mar 04, 2012 12:02:09	But CON is generally physical health. WIS is, among other things, a combination of how good your senses are combined with your mind's ability to single out the important things that your senses are picking up. Yeah, STR doesn't have a lot going for it skill-wise, and neither does CON. Historically, neither have really needed it, though, since STR was always important for melee attacks and CON determined HP. Also, just changing scores just because doesn't help if the new scores don't make sense or they have serious impacts on classes and concepts that rely on them (like non-brutal scoundrel rogues suddenly sucking at Stealth compared to a fighter who gets skill training in it).
#5 tylandras Mar 04, 2012 13:46:33	But CON is generally physical health. WIS is, among other things, a combination of how good your senses are combined with your mind's ability to single out the important things that your senses are picking up. Yeah, STR doesn't have a lot going for it skill-wise, and neither does CON. Historically, neither have really needed it, though, since STR was always important for melee attacks and CON determined HP. Also, just changing scores just because doesn't help if the new scores don't make sense or they have serious impacts on classes and concepts that rely on them (like non-brutal scoundrel rogues suddenly sucking at Stealth compared to a fighter who gets skill training in it). So you think it would be better just to leave the stealth and perception with dexterity and wisdom? Or are there skills that you would shift around? With the number of skill points available to a rogue, spending 3 to put stealth to its maximum if they felt like they needed it is always possible. I am biased, however, as I don't like the stealth rules.
#6 bone_naga Mar 04, 2012 15:09:51	So you think it would be better just to leave the stealth and perception with dexterity and wisdom? Or are there skills that you would shift around? With the number of skill points available to a rogue, spending 3 to put stealth to its maximum if they felt like they needed it is always possible. I am biased, however, as I don't like the stealth rules. To use skills and ability scores as presented, yes I would recommend keeping those two as is. However, since you are houseruling anyway, my current plan for my houseruled version of 4e is to decouple skills from ability scores. What score you use will depend on the specific use of that skill. So Intimidate might be STR if you are just trying to scare some street thug off through a show of brute force, or CHA for interrogations, blackmail, or any of its more subtle applications. Stealth will normally be DEX to sneak around, but if you are attempting to camouflage an unmoving person (including yourself) or object, it might be INT instead.