Alternate system of play- Please PEACH - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Alternate system of play- Please PEACH

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
pyromancer999
Sep 12, 2008 15:52:02 I've encountered something in other games, besides DND. In them, you are pretty much normal. But, instead of choosing a class, you are allowed to choose skills which give you special abilities. So, what I was thinking is this: Allow skills to be chosen, pretty much having a skill for every class available. Then, allow them to choose from skills, having one skill point to invest every level, say maybe two at 1st. Then, when the 1st skill point is invested, gain a class feature, and an at-will, though no more beyond two (three for humans). afterwards, treat skill points as levels, and gain powers at those levels. Same with paragon paths. or maybe I'll just have them choose a paragon path from the skill (class) they have the most points in. What do you think?
#2
rikiji
Sep 12, 2008 16:20:10 The system works very well in a modular system where all abilities are balanced against each other. In 4E it would be a logistical nightmare to get it to work.

Starting from scratch, you could use the core game mechanics of 4E and build a system like that - but at that point you're designing a new game anyways.
#3
pyromancer999
Sep 12, 2008 16:42:38 Well, Technically, the whole point of the system is: get some of every 4e class if you want, no penalties for multi-classing, but, you don't have as high-powered powers. That's not really a new game.
#4
aluman
Sep 12, 2008 17:10:55
Well, Technically, the whole point of the system is: get some of every 4e class if you want, no penalties for multi-classing, but, you don't have as high-powered powers. That's not really a new game.

Nope its a rehashing of 3.X multiclassing with more paperwork built in. Class featuers/powers can be dangerous to allow whole skill mixing.
#5
pyromancer999
Sep 12, 2008 17:26:59 Hmmm. if this is sort of going over the head of experienced DND players, perhaps I should quit. but , just to sum it up:

1. Can choose two classes at 1st level, and gain one class feature and at-will from each.

2. Can choose to advance in a class each level,

3. Gain a power each level advanced as though they were a character with that many levels in the class.

4. Each time they choose a new class, they get one class feature from the new class, but no at-will.

5. Once they get to the point of choosing a paragon path, they may choose a paragon path from one of the classes they chose.
#6
aluman
Sep 12, 2008 18:08:26
Hmmm. if this is sort of going over the head of experienced DND players, perhaps I should quit. but , just to sum it up:

Its actually not going over my head, thank you.
1. Can choose two classes at 1st level, and gain one class feature and at-will from each.

Yup, Full use of Sneak attack+other striker damage = Win all the time. (+3d8 damage at level one is flat out TOO MUCH damage)
2. Can choose to advance in a class each level,

3. Gain a power each level advanced as though they were a character with that many levels in the class.

4. Each time they choose a new class, they get one class feature from the new class, but no at-will.

5. Once they get to the point of choosing a paragon path, they may choose a paragon path from one of the classes they chose.

So I can get +3d8+1d6 at first level as a human? AND THEN add on Spellbook feature, AND THEN add on +1 with one handed weapons AND THEN add on healing.

I can make a character who may not have the end powers, but have level 25 rogue powers, AND do all the roles? Tell me how exactly is this not unbalanced?
#7
rikiji
Sep 12, 2008 18:24:09 Power selection and feats are, to a degree, modular - and are already setup in a system similar to what you propose.

The problem is that classes are not modular at all - they are balanced as a whole against other classes. There are dramatic variables in the utility and power of individual class features and there are broken synergies since the features are not designed to be used together.

You could build a system like you're describing - but it would be less work to start from scratch (or at least core concepts) then to try to adapt the existing classes to it.
#8
pyromancer999
Sep 13, 2008 9:40:32 I see your pint.,but just to clarify my points, some examples: Jaur, 3rd level player. Chooses Wizard and Fighter as his 1st level class skills. He gains an at-will from each class. Then, he may choose his one daily and encounter power from either class. Then, he can choose one class feature from each class, say he chooses Implement mastery, and One-handed weapon mastery. Then, at 2nd level, he chooses to advance one level in wizard. He gains one wizard utility. At 3rd level, he has chosen to ge a level in Rogue. He gains no powers, but chooses the Sneak Attack class feature
#9
kuonji
Sep 13, 2008 13:02:01 What do you take for the following as you earn classes:

Armor Proficiencies
Weapon Proficiencies
Bonuses to Defense
Hit Points at 1st Level
Hit Points per Level
Healing Surges per Day
Trained Skills
#10
pyromancer999
Sep 13, 2008 13:38:52 Hmmm. Perhaps point buy system? I know it isn't popular, but it works.
#11
glak2
Sep 13, 2008 15:35:02 Someone on here made a really nice start at a point buy system where you purchased class features with points and then you take whatever powers you want. I studied it and noticed several flaws and so I am redoing the whole thing, including rewriting all of the powers. I have a thread that just fell off of the front page of the hybrid forum that contains my weapon at-will powers. I am working on the implement ones now too. Then I'm going to make encounter and dailies and rework the class features again.
#12
infliction
Sep 13, 2008 20:10:03 Another idea Pyromancer, would be to simply alter the existing multiclass system 4e has implemented. In this version, there aren't as many crazy penalties for multiclassing. When you hit level 30, even if you had multiclassed, you can still get that end game ability. Unfortunately if you had multiclassed in 3.x or the same way you propose, you could have a character with many uses but never going to see 30 on any class. If you are looking to be able to use more abilities from the other classes, just add more options to the way the Multiclass rules currently function. Maybe instead of only gaining 3 powers per tier from the other class, you gain one every other level if you choose. You can also change or add the multiclassing class specific feats themselves to mold into more of what you are talking about. Say, instead of when you become a wizard and you get an encounter magic missile, you could instead gain one of their at will abilities in exchange for an encounter slot or something. Or instead of the Rogue Feat being limited to gaining the sneak attack ability, you can allow choosing any ability of the class you want.

Just altering the rules to trade more powers using the current system would be a little better I feel. The character still makes it to 30, but some of the powers along the way have been swapped for a couple level lower powers of another class. This should suit just fine. What you are asking to do seems like it could easily be tweaked into the already current system instead of trying to rebuild the 3.x system.

Also, even though this game does not want people to take a third class, does not mean you cant homebrew that they can. Using this system, they would just take the multiclass feat of the new class on one of their Feat gaining levels, and then every interval where they usually could choose another multiclass power, they could choose either/or. The only problem is its too broad to be able to expect a character to level up as quickly as his comrades when he has to constantly study 3 classes at the same time. Therefore, there should be a bit larger penalty... Although using 4 feats total to multiclass into the two new classes for both novice and paragon levels are already a drain, but there should be a bit more penalty I would think.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 pyromancer999 Sep 12, 2008 15:52:02	I've encountered something in other games, besides DND. In them, you are pretty much normal. But, instead of choosing a class, you are allowed to choose skills which give you special abilities. So, what I was thinking is this: Allow skills to be chosen, pretty much having a skill for every class available. Then, allow them to choose from skills, having one skill point to invest every level, say maybe two at 1st. Then, when the 1st skill point is invested, gain a class feature, and an at-will, though no more beyond two (three for humans). afterwards, treat skill points as levels, and gain powers at those levels. Same with paragon paths. or maybe I'll just have them choose a paragon path from the skill (class) they have the most points in. What do you think?
#2 rikiji Sep 12, 2008 16:20:10	The system works very well in a modular system where all abilities are balanced against each other. In 4E it would be a logistical nightmare to get it to work. Starting from scratch, you could use the core game mechanics of 4E and build a system like that - but at that point you're designing a new game anyways.
#3 pyromancer999 Sep 12, 2008 16:42:38	Well, Technically, the whole point of the system is: get some of every 4e class if you want, no penalties for multi-classing, but, you don't have as high-powered powers. That's not really a new game.
#4 aluman Sep 12, 2008 17:10:55	Well, Technically, the whole point of the system is: get some of every 4e class if you want, no penalties for multi-classing, but, you don't have as high-powered powers. That's not really a new game. Nope its a rehashing of 3.X multiclassing with more paperwork built in. Class featuers/powers can be dangerous to allow whole skill mixing.
#5 pyromancer999 Sep 12, 2008 17:26:59	Hmmm. if this is sort of going over the head of experienced DND players, perhaps I should quit. but , just to sum it up: 1. Can choose two classes at 1st level, and gain one class feature and at-will from each. 2. Can choose to advance in a class each level, 3. Gain a power each level advanced as though they were a character with that many levels in the class. 4. Each time they choose a new class, they get one class feature from the new class, but no at-will. 5. Once they get to the point of choosing a paragon path, they may choose a paragon path from one of the classes they chose.
#6 aluman Sep 12, 2008 18:08:26	Hmmm. if this is sort of going over the head of experienced DND players, perhaps I should quit. but , just to sum it up: Its actually not going over my head, thank you. 1. Can choose two classes at 1st level, and gain one class feature and at-will from each. Yup, Full use of Sneak attack+other striker damage = Win all the time. (+3d8 damage at level one is flat out TOO MUCH damage) 2. Can choose to advance in a class each level, 3. Gain a power each level advanced as though they were a character with that many levels in the class. 4. Each time they choose a new class, they get one class feature from the new class, but no at-will. 5. Once they get to the point of choosing a paragon path, they may choose a paragon path from one of the classes they chose. So I can get +3d8+1d6 at first level as a human? AND THEN add on Spellbook feature, AND THEN add on +1 with one handed weapons AND THEN add on healing. I can make a character who may not have the end powers, but have level 25 rogue powers, AND do all the roles? Tell me how exactly is this not unbalanced?
#7 rikiji Sep 12, 2008 18:24:09	Power selection and feats are, to a degree, modular - and are already setup in a system similar to what you propose. The problem is that classes are not modular at all - they are balanced as a whole against other classes. There are dramatic variables in the utility and power of individual class features and there are broken synergies since the features are not designed to be used together. You could build a system like you're describing - but it would be less work to start from scratch (or at least core concepts) then to try to adapt the existing classes to it.
#8 pyromancer999 Sep 13, 2008 9:40:32	I see your pint.,but just to clarify my points, some examples: Jaur, 3rd level player. Chooses Wizard and Fighter as his 1st level class skills. He gains an at-will from each class. Then, he may choose his one daily and encounter power from either class. Then, he can choose one class feature from each class, say he chooses Implement mastery, and One-handed weapon mastery. Then, at 2nd level, he chooses to advance one level in wizard. He gains one wizard utility. At 3rd level, he has chosen to ge a level in Rogue. He gains no powers, but chooses the Sneak Attack class feature
#9 kuonji Sep 13, 2008 13:02:01	What do you take for the following as you earn classes: Armor Proficiencies Weapon Proficiencies Bonuses to Defense Hit Points at 1st Level Hit Points per Level Healing Surges per Day Trained Skills
#10 pyromancer999 Sep 13, 2008 13:38:52	Hmmm. Perhaps point buy system? I know it isn't popular, but it works.
#11 glak2 Sep 13, 2008 15:35:02	Someone on here made a really nice start at a point buy system where you purchased class features with points and then you take whatever powers you want. I studied it and noticed several flaws and so I am redoing the whole thing, including rewriting all of the powers. I have a thread that just fell off of the front page of the hybrid forum that contains my weapon at-will powers. I am working on the implement ones now too. Then I'm going to make encounter and dailies and rework the class features again.
#12 infliction Sep 13, 2008 20:10:03	Another idea Pyromancer, would be to simply alter the existing multiclass system 4e has implemented. In this version, there aren't as many crazy penalties for multiclassing. When you hit level 30, even if you had multiclassed, you can still get that end game ability. Unfortunately if you had multiclassed in 3.x or the same way you propose, you could have a character with many uses but never going to see 30 on any class. If you are looking to be able to use more abilities from the other classes, just add more options to the way the Multiclass rules currently function. Maybe instead of only gaining 3 powers per tier from the other class, you gain one every other level if you choose. You can also change or add the multiclassing class specific feats themselves to mold into more of what you are talking about. Say, instead of when you become a wizard and you get an encounter magic missile, you could instead gain one of their at will abilities in exchange for an encounter slot or something. Or instead of the Rogue Feat being limited to gaining the sneak attack ability, you can allow choosing any ability of the class you want. Just altering the rules to trade more powers using the current system would be a little better I feel. The character still makes it to 30, but some of the powers along the way have been swapped for a couple level lower powers of another class. This should suit just fine. What you are asking to do seems like it could easily be tweaked into the already current system instead of trying to rebuild the 3.x system. Also, even though this game does not want people to take a third class, does not mean you cant homebrew that they can. Using this system, they would just take the multiclass feat of the new class on one of their Feat gaining levels, and then every interval where they usually could choose another multiclass power, they could choose either/or. The only problem is its too broad to be able to expect a character to level up as quickly as his comrades when he has to constantly study 3 classes at the same time. Therefore, there should be a bit larger penalty... Although using 4 feats total to multiclass into the two new classes for both novice and paragon levels are already a drain, but there should be a bit more penalty I would think.