Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 quickleaf_dup Mar 10, 2009 20:02:13	Can an archvillain with meager stats be done? What's worked in your games? I'm planning a heroic-tier 4e campaign for the summer, and the BBEG is a sickly prince scheming to become king. He's not a magic user or much of a swordsman, and has a reputation for being sleazy (having fathered two bastard children). However, he's cunning as a viper and a shrewd politician. I haven't even written up stats for him yet, but the PCs will be 10th level or so in the final confrontation. I'm debating whether to leave him as an untouchable behind the scenes or make him a full-fledged opponent.
#2 matthewswift Mar 10, 2009 23:11:24	You could give him a mech. Or make is capture a bit anti climactic until a second party of misguided adventurers come in to save their distressed prince...
#3 fenrir7139 Mar 10, 2009 23:39:50	Give him some bad-ass bodyguards; maybe make him a rogue, if you're going the NPC route with him. He'd be crappy, if his stats are as low as I'm assuming they'll be, but he's not meant to fight, anyway; that's for his "hired muscle" to do.
#4 bahamut920 Mar 10, 2009 23:45:45	Well, villains like princes, while they might not have command over an entire kingdom (yet), usually have a lot of lackeys and loyal soldiers willing to do the fighting for them. Also, a cunning, insidious prince would have high mental ability scores to compensate for his low physical ability scores. The main problem that the players have in this kind of situation would be to get even within a bowshot of Prince John there. He has innumerable lackeys and usually a big, tough bodyguard to play The Dragon for your players, but their real problem should be their lack of ability to apprehend him in the first place. Now, give them a number of solutions. If the party has a good face and some investigative capability, they could dig up some real dirt on the prince, and use that to turn someone even more powerful than Prince John against him, allowing the players to storm his redoubt and fight him without interference from the Powers That Be (the guard cannot help them, or, at best, can only send a few grunts to assist, because Prince John's influence is too strong, and they have to root out his supporters first). If the party is more stealth-minded, they might simply infiltrate his castle and put an end to him the old fashioned way - with a poisoned dagger. Or, if they're really badass, they might just wait 'till he's away from the castle, then just bum rush his guard and try to take him out that way. Needless to say, the latter two options will probably have legal repercussions (if the authorities can figure out whodunnit; there might be ways to circumvent that, depending on how powerful the kingdom is, especially magically), unless Prince John was very unpopular, but, for some reason, could not be removed from his seat of power.
#5 Neutronium_Dragon Mar 11, 2009 2:40:03	A villain like this works just fine, and there have been plenty of such villains throughout history and fiction. They're not suitable for a combat encounter though, and they shouldn't be played as such. Aim for a resolution that requires the players to outwit or outmaneuver him so that he's defeated in the political arena. A skill challenge would work quite well here, and if you weave it in from the beginning of the campaign, it could even be one that runs throughout, with just the occasional check here or there that ultimately contributes to the ending.
#6 novatack Mar 11, 2009 16:52:41	You don't need to have it end in an encounter. It could end with the PCs discovering evidence and having him be arrested or something along those lines. If you really want an encounter with the prince, there are a few possible options: a) Rogue Type: Just because he's not physically strong or magically adept, doesn't mean he's not effective at sneaking around and/or stabbing someone while their back is turned. Works well with bodyguards, preferably ones that can either coneal the prince, or at least mark the PCs (hindering attempts by the PCs to attack the prince) b) Leader: By either promising to reward or punish guards, he could provide bonuses. For example- Standard Action: Yells out that the first person to kill a PC gets 1000 gold. All guards gain a +2 to attack rolls at the thought of that reward. Plus several leaders have the ability to redirect attacks made at them. Overall, he's not a threat on his, but can still contribute to the difficulty of the encounter. Works well with brute-type guards. c) Sellsoul: The prince has made a pact with some sort of powerful creature to grant him the power to defend himself (he doesn't necessarily have to sell his soul per se, but it gets the point across). He could become a warlock, or be transformed into some powerful creature. (Of course, he could also make a deal with some entity for soldiers instead, if you want to combine this idea with either of the previous ideas).
#7 quickleaf_dup Mar 12, 2009 16:32:06	Great advice! Thanks! I like the idea of running the prince as a non-combatant, so it'll be hard to get access to him, but also not entirely clear that killing him will really solve anything. Sure he's an evil SOB, but he's not trying to ruin the kingdom, he just wants the throne and is willing to do whatever it takes to get it. So I've crafted a fun story where he is the eldest son but denied his birthright and is trying to conceal his father's will. I'll have a couple twists where the PCs help him break a curse on his sister, and he helps the PCs get access to a fortification where the mother of his bastard child is being held. In the end, I'm thinking the prince's plots spiral out of his control and the PCs need to step in and clear everything up. Then they can try the prince for his crimes, chop his head off, take his manor and make him join a monastery, whatever.
#8 descrii Mar 13, 2009 22:26:08	The bodyguard could be a really decent and very powerful person, too, who is also being fooled or is bound by an oath to protect the prince. Think of... I think it was Aramis in Man in the Iron Mask. He's very dangerous, but also honorable. He doesn't like how the young king is ruling, but he feels bound by his oath to protect him until the others eventually convince him that the king must be replaced. Then you could have some adventures around getting proof of the prince's treachery to show this powerful bodyguard.
#9 angelofthenight Mar 14, 2009 12:14:46	I would go with organizing a coup. Killing the prince doesn't help if the high chancellor or whatever merely steps into his place and puts out an arrest warrant for the PCs. Plus, make them clean up their mess. Riots in the streets, ambitious thieves and assasin's guilds, revolts, and other sons trying for the crown. If they don't have strong support among the nobility, they can kiss everything they own in the kingdom good bye. If your running this in real medival style, that includes parents, siblings, friends and allies. Their property would probably be confiscated too, or at least burned.
#10 CCS Mar 20, 2009 3:30:06	Can an archvillain with meager stats be done? What's worked in your games? In one of our 3.5 games there was no archvillain. The players though were convinced that there was. They lacthed onto a hook, drew a completely wrong assumption from the info they had/situation they were in (that they'd caused btw), and spent nearly a year trying to thwart or evade a non-existant threat. To this day they refuse to believe me when I say there was no overall BBEG/plot against them. So yes, a toothless threat can work....
#11 BRJN Apr 03, 2009 21:31:42	the BBEG is a sickly prince scheming to become king. ... However, he's cunning as a viper and a shrewd politician. Make him a skill monster, especially the CHR skills like Diplomacy and Bluff. "Fighting" him consists of a skill challenge where he is putting penalties to the PCs' rolls and they have to take actions that will get offsetting bonusses. Keep track of when the PCs get so much bonus that they overpower his effect - eventually (2d4 times?) he will notice them personally and sic the power of the State on them, in progressively escalating degrees. Some of the plot elements may be: - having to run away from an arrest warrant - getting a property tax audit - honest Royal official coming to PCs with advice - honest Royal official coming to PCs for help - feudal corvee call-up (all able-bodied men must report for the King's service.) Good if they avoided the arrest warrant but it is still active - noble decides to take matters into his own hands (figure out motive) - Robin Hood meets the PCs - the only emergency shelter available is with infamous highwaymen - PCs meet a traveling minstrel show - foreign invaders create temporary truce between PCs and local officials - foreign spies offer to sponsor PCs. This is a two-edged offer. - peasant uprising sweeps over area where PCs are active
#12 ScrivenerofDoom Apr 18, 2009 22:59:39	One of the drawbacks of 4E is that it is not as easy as 3.5E to represent this mechanically as there are no expert and aristocrat classes. I think you have two options: a controller might be the way to go with a range of warlord-like powers to represent his command over his loyal followers; or a very high level minion but with some sort of item that needs to be destroyed before he takes any damage (and, of course, the party only finds this out after they finally break through his high defences).
#13 descrii Apr 18, 2009 23:08:54	Why not just make him a low level skirmisher or controller with high skills? As I understand, you can set the skills arbitrarily without connection to level, right? That would be the same thing as an aristocrat or expert from the old rules - crap in combat and capable with skill checks.