Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 divinedragoonkain Dec 15, 2008 21:08:17	Show Racial Traits: Average Height: 6'1'' - 6'9'' Average Weight: 210 lbs - 250 lbs. Ability Scores: + 2 Dex/Int Size: Medium Speed: 7 squares Vision: Normal Languages: Common, choice of one other. Skill Bonuses: +2 Perception, +2 Athletics Aberrant Origin: Your race is not native to Bara Min and is considered aberrant for all effects related to that origin. Tail Proficiency: You gain proficiency with unarmed attacks due to having a strong, blade-like tail. Your tail does 1d6 damage, has a +2 proficiency bonus, and is considered both an unarmed attack and a light blade. You may enchant your tail with weapon enchantments, and your tail does not count as an improvised weapon. You may apply whetstones to your tail, have it silvered, or other effects as normal. If you disenchant your tail, you gain the normal amount of residuum but your tail is not destroyed. Your tail counts as a one-handed weapon but does not require a free hand to use. Aberrant Body: Andalites may not wear armor, boots, or gloves unless they have been specifically made or magically resized for them. This requires an additional 10% of the item's price, even if normally resizing the item would be free. You also gain an extra item slot, which can be used for either a feet slot item or a mount slot item. When wearing a mount slot item you are considered a mount for any effects related to mounts, but you are not considered the rider. You may not ride a mount, but you may be ridden as a mount. Quadruped: You can carry 50% more than normal. Play an Andalite if you... * want to be a member of an aberrant race. * want to train to be a powerful or guileish shapeshifter. * want to be a member of a race that favors the rogue, swordmage, and ranger classes.
#2 DragonsWrath Dec 15, 2008 21:31:31	Holy Crap, I used to read those books! Clearly they should be great at being a Druid... :D Feedback off the top of my head: Looks interesting, but I find the idea of modifying their tails to be Bad. Perhaps a better approach would be to let them use it as a Free Action or Minor Action once per round to get an additional attack. Think of it like this: They get to attack with a normal weapon and whatnot, but then attack again with their tail. Make it an At-Will Racial power, that scales with the level for damage. DEX/INT makes perfect sense, but I would play up their Perception a bit more, perhaps with a bonus to Reflex as well. The second racial trait makes sense. Now that I think about it, I'm having trouble visualizing an andalite with any kind of weapon/magic other than a dreacon beam... >_< [edit] They should totally be able to SPEAK all languages, or otherwise communicate with any sentient creature within a reasonable range (2 miles?). [editedit] Tail attack has Threatening Reach?
#3 dendroaspis Dec 15, 2008 21:59:05	Oh! Andalites! That's the race of telepathic, mouth-less, hoof-eating aliens from Animorphs, right? If so, then shouldn't some of that stuff be incorporated into the race? Otherwise, sounds nifty--I used to love those books, and read all 60-something of them. Oh, also, the stalk eyes, what about those?
#4 divinedragoonkain Dec 15, 2008 22:19:45	Oh! Andalites! That's the race of telepathic, mouth-less, hoof-eating aliens from Animorphs, right? If so, then shouldn't some of that stuff be incorporated into the race? Otherwise, sounds nifty--I used to love those books, and read all 60-something of them. Oh, also, the stalk eyes, what about those? Let me fetch the fluff text I wrote up. Show A race said to have descended from the Far Realms in a city made of metal, though these claims cannot be backed up. They possess a humanoid-like upper torso, and a horse-like body, somewhat like a centaur. In addition, they have blue fur over their entire bodies, seven-fingered hands, and usually weak upper-body muscles with strong lower-body muscles. They possess four eyes on their heads, two normal eyes and two eyes each resting on stalks atop their head. These eyes can swivel and look in any direction, giving them a naturally boosted awareness. They possess no mouths, and instead speak with a form of telepathy that is physically audible to anyone nearby. They eat by absorbing vegetable matter with their hooves, and are naturally vegetarians. Lastly, they possess a thin, muscular tail tipped with a small, sickle-like blade on the end. Andalites are an intellectual people, fond of the arts, the sciences, and of making magical items. It is said their craftsmanship is the best in all of Bara Min. They are not particularly religious, though some have adopted worship of Correlon. They are also a slightly xenophobic race, and highly value their privacy. If they receive a permanent injury or affliction, they usually hide it the best they can or withdraw from society for the rest of their lives. Powerful Andalites have been known to develop shapeshifting powers rivaling those of dopplegangers, and with enough dedication, surpassing them.
#5 dendroaspis Dec 15, 2008 22:32:28	Could you give them an additional power for having the stalk eyes? For example, perhaps they cannot be surprised--sort of like the effect of a robe of eyes. I guess that that would be really powerful--and not quite accurate, as I remember in incident in the last book, I think, of Andalites getting caught from behind, all their eyes facing forward. I suppose that, to make it a balanced race, it's pretty good as it is--although you could add that they're unable to eat normal food, so they can't be underground for weeks with nothing to graze on, right?
#6 DragonsWrath Dec 15, 2008 22:32:38	I covered the telepathy thing, and giving them the ability to speak any language is equivalent to giving them Supernal, which I decided against. Ah, but there's the catch! They can only SPEAK the language, they can't read it or comprehend it spoken. Another way to say it is that they "speak" in complete thoughts that are transmitted, so the recipient can hear them in any language. They don't understand the language, but the other creature can always understand them. Also, they would never wear boots. They would starve to death! :P
#7 DragonsWrath Dec 15, 2008 22:41:50	I dunno about that. That sounds like it'd be along the lines of Dragon Breath as a melee attack. Then again, modifying the tail is something odd too. I was actually thinking about a feat to up the tail's damage to 2d4 and give it Reach, but it would change into a Heavy Blade rather than stay a Light Blade, to represent that one super bulky Andalite with the scythe-tail. How about this: Tail Attack At Will, Minor Action Dex vs Reflex Damage is based on the chart below: Level 1: 1d3 Level 4: 1d4 Level 8: 1d6 Level 12: 1d8 Level 16: 1d10 Level 20: 1d12 Level 24: 2d6 Level 28: 2d8 Level 30: 2d10 Various feats could improve the range, add add additional effects, a two-times-per-round ability (only against different targets?), and what have you.
#8 aluman Dec 15, 2008 23:36:00	How about this: Tail Attack At Will, Minor Action Dex vs Reflex Damage is based on the chart below: Level 1: 1d3 Level 4: 1d4 Level 8: 1d6 Level 12: 1d8 Level 16: 1d10 Level 20: 1d12 Level 24: 2d6 Level 28: 2d8 Level 30: 2d10 Various feats could improve the range, add add additional effects, a two-times-per-round ability (only against different targets?), and what have you. I pray you are joking about an minor action at will attack. Encounter power. Chagne from that chart to 1d6, 2d6, and 3d6 at 1,11,21 respectfully add on Dex modifer damage.
#9 DragonsWrath Dec 16, 2008 0:19:34	I pray you are joking about an minor action at will attack. Encounter power. Chagne from that chart to 1d6, 2d6, and 3d6 at 1,11,21 respectfully add on Dex modifer damage. OK, I'm gawawful at balancing things, I admit it. I tend to solve problems by throwing out any idea I have and toning it down or adding to it from there. I also tend to tackle problems from a flavor point of view instead of mechanical. Flavor: their tail has a blade on the end. Said tail is fast, and in the story was their primary means of attack. It would make sense for them to have an extra (minor) attack every round, using ONLY the tail, with NO enhancements on it. Rogues get an extra Sneak Attack damage die, and that's not broken. There IS a way to balance this. So that's my thought process. Feel free to build from there, but that's what I was shooting at. PS: By additional effects, I meant "don't deal damage, the enemy grants CA" kinds of things.
#10 aluman Dec 16, 2008 0:40:25	Flavor: their tail has a blade on the end. Said tail is fast, and in the story was their primary means of attack. It would make sense for them to have an extra (minor) attack every round, using ONLY the tail, with NO enhancements on it. But see, the problem is, Strikers get to increase damage, and Technically, things like Iron Bracers would still affect it, et cetra. There is also the reality that in a lot of situations that 2 extra attacks, not one. (IE whenever they don't have to move). Rogues get an extra Sneak Attack damage die, and that's not broken. There IS a way to balance this. See at first I thought SA was CA wasn't all the time. Its assumed most the time, but its not even that. SA gets more damage, because the situation has to be setup EACH round. Rangers/Warlocks setup their extra damage (curse/quarry) and are done. Since they have an easier time then Rogues Rogues deal more damage. However, there is absolutely no way to balance 3 attacks/round from 1st level onward, even minuscule damage. Especially with a race that is a shoe in for rogues and Rangers. both of whom have ways to add extra damage, and have a 50% fail rate with attacking. Its bad bad design to have minor attacks at will. So that's my thought process. Feel free to build from there, but that's what I was shooting at. PS: By additional effects, I meant "don't deal damage, the enemy grants CA" kinds of things. Really in a lot of ways the best way to handle the blade tail is to say their tail acts as a great spear (+3 1d8 reach 2) they they are automatically proficient in. This essentially gives them an extra weapon to attack with, While not putting a race who is primarily pacificistic (though its been a while since I read the books) into a combat superman role.
#11 DragonsWrath Dec 16, 2008 6:15:57	However, there is absolutely no way to balance 3 attacks/round from 1st level onward, even minuscule damage. Especially with a race that is a shoe in for rogues and Rangers. both of whom have ways to add extra damage, and have a 50% fail rate with attacking. Its bad bad design to have minor attacks at will. You seem to have skipped over the "once per round" comment I made (which I forgot to bring up the second time). As far as Sneak Attack damage, I certainly see where you are coming from with that. What about restricting the attack to ONLY a bonus attack during an OA, and possibly restricting it's interaction with Sneak Attack damage (only getting to use Tail Attack OR Sneak Attack per round)? That way they would get two attacks (weapon and tail) against OA opponents.
#12 FriendlyBiscuit Dec 16, 2008 8:17:03	Dude. Andalites! Memories... especially of the andalite chronicles, natch.
#13 EmpactWB Dec 16, 2008 9:27:17	Just to point out: quadrupeds only carry 25% more in 4E. See page 222 in the Player's Handbook. Andalites are rather frail as far as heavy lifting goes, so I really think that should stay the number. As for the tail attack, why not a racial encounter power that slows (to the end of the enemy's next turn) when it hits (flavor it as bringing the enemy up short with a strike to the legs) that can also be used as an OA? Give them a little stickiness kind of like the fighter's combat superiority. Make up some feats kinda like those for the minotaur to let you use it on a charge or increase the damage or even keep you from expending the power in certain situations. The extra attack only on an OA is too limited, I think, and you definitely should NOT limit it's interaction with SA. SA can already only be applied once per round. As long as the tail attack is an encounter power, all interactions should be fine. It ought to look something like this:
#14 wyld_mutation Dec 16, 2008 11:07:58	They could us their tails during OA's. Adding something like 1d6 to damage. However in 4e they try not to penalize PC's for their choices. Thus the aberrant body may be a problem. Understandable (like the small rules) but still a problem. Language... Give them supernal. Simple and elegant.
#15 divinedragoonkain Dec 16, 2008 12:13:55	Let's see, then... Show Aberrant Origin: Your race is not native to Bara Min and is considered aberrant for all effects related to that origin. Aberrant Body: Andalites may not wear armor, boots, or gloves unless they have been specifically made or magically resized for them, the latter requiring an Enchant Magic Item ritual. You also gain an extra item slot, which can be used for either a feet slot item or a mount slot item. When wearing a mount slot item you are considered a mount for any effects related to mounts, but you are not considered the rider. Quadruped: You can carry 25% more weight, and can be ridden as a mount by Medium or smaller sized creatures. You cannot sustain carrying a Medium creature for very long, and for every five minutes that you carry a Medium creature in a given day, make a DC 15 Endurance check with +1 added to the DC for every successful check that day. If you succeed, you can carry the Medium creature for five minutes longer. If you fail, you become tired and may not carry a Medium creature again until you take an extended rest. You require no Endurance checks to carry a Small or smaller rider. Shorm: *insert tail text*
#16 Tectorman Dec 16, 2008 12:53:31	Okay, let's run through the list. Ability scores, size, speed, and vision? Good, good, good, and either good or maybe low-light vision (Ax remarked about being able to see further into the either the infrared or ultraviolet spectrum which might be deserving of low-light vision, but it's such a trivial reference that it can easily be ignored). Languages: good. Skill bonuses: seem okay, but no list of all the skills to compare to (away from book right now) means I can't really tell. Possible alternatives: Arcana (they're gifted with science, which can be represented here as arcane magic, maybe). Aberrant type: reasonable. Tail proficiency: no idea how to adjudicate this. I think there was a Dragon Magazine article about Gnolls which had a feat that did a similar sort of thing for them (with their claws and not a tail, of course), so I'd look at that. One suggestion I have is to make it an at-will minor action attack (yes, I said at-will minor action attack, but bear with me). Shorm Blade---Andalite Racial Attack At-Will + Racial Minor Action______Melee 1 Target: One creature Attack: Strength +3 vs. AC, Dexterity +3 vs. AC, or Constitution +3 vs. AC Increase to Strength +5 vs. AC, Dexterity +5 vs. AC, or Constitution +5 vs. AC at 11th level and to Strength +7 vs. AC, Dexterity +7 vs. AC, or Constitution +7 vs. AC at 21st level. Hit: Strength modifier, Dexterity modifier, or Constitution modifier damage. It takes a minor action, is 1 to 2 points behind regular "vs. AC" attacks in terms of accuracy (depending on when in a tier you're using it), and does damage that does not scale like normal attacks (or rather, they do 0d6 + ability modifier damage pre-epic and increase it to 2(0d6) + ability modifier damage at 21st level; same difference). You'd lose some of the dangerous nature of the Andalite's tail blade with this setup (minimal damage), but I think it's necessary to emulate the constant use that Andalites put it through (at-will), and it's quick nature (minor action). Aberrant body: scrap it. The whole thing. Quadruped: quadruped rules already exist (PHB page 222) and state that quadrupeds carry 25% more than normal (not 50%). So unless you intend for Andalites to carry more than similarly strong creatures, I'd change it. Also, I'd add in something concerning their stalk eyes. Maybe make it where when an Andalite is flanked, they grant combat advantage but attackers don't get the normal +2 to attack rolls. The language of the ability would have to allow for flankers who have combat advantage from flanking and from some other means to retain their +2 to attack rolls (which I don't know how it would be written out). That's all I can think of. Good luck.
#17 Prince_Vine Dec 16, 2008 13:18:55	I'd like to see a prestige class based on tail-dueling.
#18 DragonsWrath Dec 16, 2008 14:13:49	Shorm Blade---Andalite Racial Attack At-Will + Racial Minor Action______Melee 1 Target: One creature Attack: Strength +3 vs. AC, Dexterity +3 vs. AC, or Constitution +3 vs. AC Increase to Strength +5 vs. AC, Dexterity +5 vs. AC, or Constitution +5 vs. AC at 11th level and to Strength +7 vs. AC, Dexterity +7 vs. AC, or Constitution +7 vs. AC at 21st level. Hit: Strength modifier, Dexterity modifier, or Constitution modifier damage. I like. See, I said it was possible! :D
#19 divinedragoonkain Dec 16, 2008 17:08:24	Really in a lot of ways the best way to handle the blade tail is to say their tail acts as a great spear (+3 1d8 reach 2) they they are automatically proficient in. Gnolls have to spend a feat just to have +3 1d6 light blade proficiency. What I ended up doing was that I adapted the Gnoll's Claw Fighter feat into a racial trait for Andalites (though it only counts as a single one-handed weapon, while the Gnolls get it in both hands and are natural TWF Rangers/Tempest Fighters). The at-will minor people suggested (I do like the one that does 0d6 + mod damage) might get implemented as a feat or something. Aberrant Body is gone, and now Andalites can only carry Small creatures. They also do not grant a bonus to hit when flanked. Probably going to include a feat later that ups the damage to 2d4, changes the shorm to a heavy blade, and makes it a two-handed weapon for the purpose of feats and powers. Wielding a scythe free-handed shouldn't be TOO broken... (One of the Andalites early in the series was a beast of a guy, with hubcap hoofs, bulky muscles, and a scythe-like shorm. I'll probably require Toughness for this feat). Now I have to think of other Andalite feats... Thanks for the suggestions everyone!
#20 aluman Dec 16, 2008 18:09:53	Gnolls have to spend a feat just to have +3 1d6 light blade proficiency. What I ended up doing was that I adapted the Gnoll's Claw Fighter feat into a racial trait for Andalites (though it only counts as a single one-handed weapon, while the Gnolls get it in both hands and are natural TWF Rangers/Tempest Fighters). The at-will minor people suggested (I do like the one that does 0d6 + mod damage) might get implemented as a feat or something. Its the 2x the gnoll's get that made me favor stating it up as a great spear, that and the natural reach of the tail. And made them a shoe in for the Warlord class, which I honestly saw Andalites being ideal for anyway.
#21 divinedragoonkain Dec 16, 2008 18:39:32	Good point.
#22 aluman Dec 16, 2008 20:08:34	Especially as, it may be superior, but reach weapons as a rule are suboptimal for most meleers. The only real issue is Andalites would make good polearm fighters, but any race really could if they put their mind to it. but as long as its not a minor attack I am content :D