Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tequila_sunrise Jul 31, 2008 17:25:17	Animal Companion [Heroic] Prerequisite: Trained in Arcana, Nature or Religion Benefit: You gain the knowledge to perform a ritual which summons a faithful animal companion. You can communicate basic emotions and information with your companion, but it is an animal and so cannot grasp complex concepts like specific numbers. Your first companion is free. If your companion dies, you can summon another by spending a sum of money equal to the sale price of a magical item of your level. All animal companions have the following statistics in common: Level: Your animal companion is the same level as you are. Initiative: Your animal companion acts on your initiative score. In order to take any action other than running from danger, you must order your companion to do so. Ordering a companion to do something requires a similar action to that of the companion. For example, ordering a companion to attack for one round requires you to use a standard action. Hit Points at First Level: 15 + Constitution score Hit Points per Additional Level: 6 Healing Surges: 9 + Constitution modifier Defenses: 10 + level + appropriate ability modifiers. Barding can be purchased at double the cost of normal armor for animals that are commonly outfitted for war, such as horses and ponies. Attack: Level + Strength or Dexterity modifier Damage: 1[W] + Strength modifier. At 21st level, increase to 2[W] + Strength modifier. Intelligence: 1, Wisdom: 10, Charisma: 10 Individual animal companions have the following statistics: Horse Size: Large (reach 1) Strength: 18, Dexterity: 6, Constitution: 14 Speed: 10 Damage: 1d6 Trained: Endurance, Perception Senses: Low-Light Vision Defenses: +2 Fortitutde Pony Size: Medium Strength: 14, Dexterity: 10, Constitution: 14 Speed: 8 Damage: 1d4 Trained: Endurance, Perception Senses: Low-Light Vision Defenses: +2 Fortitutde Hawk Size: Tiny Strength: 4, Dexterity: 22, Constitution: 10 Speed: Fly 12 Damage: 1d2 Trained: Perception, Stealth Senses: Low-Light Vision Defenses: +2 Reflex Monkey Size: Tiny Strength: 4, Dexterity: 22, Constitution: 10 Speed: 4, Climb 4 Damage: 1d2 Trained: Acrobatics, Athletics, Perception Senses: Low-Light Vision Defenses: +2 Reflex
#2 renizar Aug 01, 2008 2:46:32	as far as I know, there isn't any d2 damage, so why is everyone trying to sneak them in? Anyway, nice Idea's, wish my DM did somthing other then RAW and RAI, he never uses any peach unless it;s for the bad guys. So whats the component cost for the Ritural, nothing?
#3 kadeity Aug 02, 2008 6:05:35	there isnt any 1d2 or 1d3 in 4th edition. the problem with animal companions or summons is that they grant you extra actions, namely extra attacks. Fix that, and you have a balanced feat. if you dont, then you havent. In 4e, no one gets multiple attacks. In fact, that the ranger can attack twice is the main attraction of his class. You cant just let someone else have that class feature, even if you do it by giving them a pet. so i suggest this. Make it so you have to spend a standard action to command the companion to attack. if you dont spend a standard action, it doesnt attack. period.
#4 tequila_sunrise Aug 02, 2008 8:27:55	as far as I know, there isn't any d2 damage, so why is everyone trying to sneak them in? there isnt any 1d2 or 1d3 in 4th edition. Well if Large companions deal 1d6 and Medium companions deal 1d4, it follows that Small companions deal 1d3 and Tiny companions deal 1d2. Saying "this doesn't exist in 4e" is a silly reason not to use something. There are also no animal companions in 4e, and yet here we are discussing them. Anyway, nice Idea's, wish my DM did somthing other then RAW and RAI, he never uses any peach unless it;s for the bad guys. So whats the component cost for the Ritural, nothing? Benefit: ...Your first companion is free. If your companion dies, you can summon another by spending a sum of money equal to the sale price of a magical item of your level. so i suggest this. Make it so you have to spend a standard action to command the companion to attack. if you dont spend a standard action, it doesnt attack. period. Initiative: Your animal companion acts on your initiative score. In order to take any action other than running from danger, you must order your companion to do so. Ordering a companion to do something requires a similar action to that of the companion. For example, ordering a companion to attack for one round requires you to use a standard action. TS
#5 Novacat Aug 02, 2008 13:38:31	there isnt any 1d2 or 1d3 in 4th edition. the problem with animal companions or summons is that they grant you extra actions, namely extra attacks. Fix that, and you have a balanced feat. if you dont, then you havent. In 4e, no one gets multiple attacks. In fact, that the ranger can attack twice is the main attraction of his class. You cant just let someone else have that class feature, even if you do it by giving them a pet. so i suggest this. Make it so you have to spend a standard action to command the companion to attack. if you dont spend a standard action, it doesnt attack. period. And that is the crux of this issue. Kadeity is clearly familiar with the Economy of Actions that is so carefully preserved in 4E. Any sort of Animal Companion will need to avoid disrupting this economy, in ways largely already suggested.
#6 renizar Aug 02, 2008 14:13:12	Were did you get that Small deals less damage then Medium? Never says anything like that in the book, and if your getting that because of oversized weapon racial powers and other large creatures, in 4e you simple cannot flip the table like that. So the Mimimal Damage is 1d4, if it was 1d2 [fliping a coin most likely] then the weapon damage on improvised weapon's would be 1d2 and not 1d4.
#7 tequila_sunrise Aug 02, 2008 14:31:58	And that is the crux of this issue. Kadeity is clearly familiar with the Economy of Actions that is so carefully preserved in 4E. Any sort of Animal Companion will need to avoid disrupting this economy, in ways largely already suggested. Not to be snarky, but did anyone at all read my OP? Or the post directly before their own post? Were did you get that Small deals less damage then Medium? Oh I don't know where I would get such a crazy idea...maybe from the fact that bigger weapons and bigger monsters usually have bigger base damage dies. Or maybe from the fact that bigger critters dealing more damage is just plain intuitive. Seriously if you think all companions should use the same base damage die, just say so. "To preserve balance" or "for simplicity's sake" are both valid arguments, and I might actually change my feat if you were to use either of those tacks. But I can only laugh at the "because we don't do that in 4e" argument, so I suggest giving it up. TS
#8 alphasquirell Aug 02, 2008 14:41:11	Could you have animal companions that like, don't do damage? Like a wolf companion that can make an attack vs a set DC, and if he makes it then he can be used to consider flanking? Or maybe he can harry an opponent and prevent them from attacking? Or knock them prone? Or blind them in some way? (particularly think about a monkey clinging to someone's head and yanking hair on that last one, getting in his face and blinding him) Then maybe you could treat the Animal Companion as an encounter power. You've still got to balance the "economy of actions", but if they don't do any damage and instead have "effects", then maybe it'd be a bit easier to balance them. You know, if you have an animal companion, why can't we work out rules that allow for the animal to fight from within your square? So maybe as a Standard Action you can launch the monkey from your arm and onto the opponent. Next turn, you can attack as normal, and use a minor action to "sustain" the monkey harassment. When that enemy is defeated, you can roll to recharge the animal companion power. Then you can use it again. Maybe make recharge rolls higher if you are not adjacent to that opponent when they go down (the animal getting back to you shows this) Maybe force a penalty when attacking an enemy being bothered by someone else's animal companion (so you don't hit it). Then you can add in extra feats at later levels. Allow for quicker recharge, maybe range to the attack (so the wolf can charge across the battlefield to harass the enemy), a feat to increase the animal's attack bonus (or this could level as you level, maybe 1/4th your level? 1/3rd?), feats for extra abilities (wolves can aid in perception, or at least perk his ears up to let you know when you have failed to see/hear something), etc. I think Animal Companions would work fine if you made them more like a character ability (at least, in combat), and less like an individual character. (again, in combat; out of combat RP them to your heart's content)
#9 tequila_sunrise Aug 02, 2008 22:06:12	Could you have animal companions that like, don't do damage? I may do that at some point, but that approach is both more complicated and harder to balance. So for now I'm sticking with my basics. TS
#10 vadin Aug 03, 2008 0:05:27	Maybe an entry level animal companion feat that gives it to you, but you have to spend a standard action to make it do anything other than move (including granting you flanking until the end of your next turn). Then you could have feats after that with at-will or encounter powers that are minor actions for you and let your animal attack or perform other actions. Also, a thought on companions themselves: why aren't they broken up into roles? Mount, predator, harrier/assistant? Horse, wolf, hawk/monkey? Or large wolf, large snake, imp? Mechanically, they'd all fall into a certain category, of course, but it'd allow for much more variation in actual companions and make it easier for powers to have a basic effect with different extra effects depending on the companions role, like a warlock's pact and its extra effects.