Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Aug 25, 2008 15:46:49	House Rules v1.0 Blasts/Bursts/Area attacks: As an option, only roll hit and damage once per attack, compare result to each creature, and apply same damage to speed up play. Does not apply to powers with primary/secondary targets or attacks. Light Blades: In keeping with the line of “reward accuracy as much as force” a character can use the higher of his STR or DEX modifiers on basic attacks with light blades. Damage is still based on STR. Grabs: An attacker can also render a grabbed opponent prone. This is a STR attack vs. Reflex or Fortitude, whichever is greater. Masterwork Armors: Can occasionally be found in non-enchanted varieties in treasure and for sale (usually found unfinished). If for sale (or selling un-enchanted) they cost as much as a magic armor of their type with their minimum enhancement bonus -1. Action Points: Gain extra ones on a combat roll of 20. Only one per encounter can be used for extra actions. Others can be used for a +1d6 to a d20 combat/skill roll. 'Small' Wizards: Gain weapon proficiency in the club instead of the quarterstaff. Staffs (the magic kind) can still be used as implements with the Enchant Magic Item ritual to resize it. Implements: Non-magic implements provide a +1 to the attack/activation roll only, while magic ones add a +1 (or more) to both attack/activation roll and damage/effects.
#2 Cohen95 Aug 25, 2008 16:48:49	House Rules v1.0 [*]Blasts/Bursts/Area attacks: As an option, only roll hit and damage once per attack, compare result to each creature, and apply same damage to speed up play. Does not apply to powers with primary/secondary targets or attacks. Horrible idea. Completely breaks AoE powers. If I roll a crit, that means all enemies (and, potentially, allies) take max damage. If I roll a miss, that means I didn't hit anybody. Horrible, never works, bad idea. [*]Light Blades: In keeping with the line of “reward accuracy as much as force” a character can use the higher of his STR or DEX modifiers on basic attacks with light blades. Damage is still based on STR. This should be a feat, but otherwise isn't a bad idea. Basically, 4e Weapon Finesse. Require Dex 14, or so...just for formality. [*]Grabs: An attacker can also render a grabbed opponent prone. This is a STR attack vs. Reflex or Fortitude, whichever is greater. It should be vs Reflex. Fortitude is vitality. Perhaps give the target a Reflex bonus equal to their Str modifier. [*]Masterwork Armors: Can occasionally be found in non-enchanted varieties in treasure and for sale (usually found unfinished). If for sale (or selling un-enchanted) they cost as much as a magic armor of their type with their minimum enhancement bonus -1. If it's not enchanted, it doesn't have an enhancement bonus. Masterwork now refers to items created magically. It's not, "make something of extraordinary quality, and enchant it." It's, "make something so extraordinary, magic is woven into the very nature of it." All masterwork items are magical, because magic is required to create them. [*]Action Points: Gain extra ones on a combat roll of 20. Only one per encounter can be used for extra actions. Others can be used for a +1d6 to a d20 combat/skill roll. I don't understand what you mean by, "Gain extra ones...roll of 20," I guess you mean get a bonus on the extra action. That's Action Surge. Also, only one Action Point can be spent per encounter, period. This was something that came out in playtesting. [*]'Small' Wizards: Gain weapon proficiency in the club instead of the quarterstaff. Staffs (the magic kind) can still be used as implements with the Enchant Magic Item ritual to resize it. Again, horrible idea. A Staff Implement works like a Quarterstaff. Small Wizards can't swing big sticks. [*]Implements: Non-magic implements provide a +1 to the attack/activation roll only, while magic ones add a +1 (or more) to both attack/activation roll and damage/effects. Not needed. Wizard implements already have great boons. Warlocks don't get their class buffs from implements, they get them from pacts, and Clerics have Channel Divinity. non-magical implements are flavor, not mechanic.
#3 Armisael Aug 25, 2008 16:58:41	Horrible idea. Completely breaks AoE powers. If I roll a crit, that means all enemies (and, potentially, allies) take max damage. If I roll a miss, that means I didn't hit anybody. Horrible, never works, bad idea. That already happens. You roll to attack once, and multiple times for damage. You sayin' sumthin'? This should be a feat, but otherwise isn't a bad idea. Basically, 4e Weapon Finesse. Require Dex 14, or so...just for formality. 13 Dex, but otherwise, I agree. It should be vs Reflex. Fortitude is vitality. Perhaps give the target a Reflex bonus equal to their Str modifier. Nah, I think it should be fortitude. Mostly because it sounds like a good idea, for resisting being moved, keeping it similar to how 3.X had grabs be closer to fort. than ref. If it's not enchanted, it doesn't have an enhancement bonus. Masterwork now refers to items created magically. It's not, "make something of extraordinary quality, and enchant it." It's, "make something so extraordinary, magic is woven into the very nature of it." All masterwork items are magical, because magic is required to create them. Agreed. I don't understand what you mean by, "Gain extra ones...roll of 20," I guess you mean get a bonus on the extra action. That's Action Surge. Also, only one Action Point can be spent per encounter, period. This was something that came out in playtesting. No, he means that you get extra AP on natural 20's. It's a horrible idea. Horrible. Again, horrible idea. A Staff Implement works like a Quarterstaff. Small Wizards can't swing big sticks. Agreed. Not needed. Wizard implements already have great boons. Warlocks don't get their class buffs from implements, they get them from pacts, and Clerics have Channel Divinity. non-magical implements are flavor, not mechanic. Agreed. If you went with this one, you should give the weapon users an extra +1 on all their attack rolls. Bolded parts are my answers, and opinions on the HR.
#4 wyld_mutation Aug 25, 2008 17:02:25	Actually you have it backwards: You roll attacks individually and damage once. To simulate reflexes. Anyway: Besides thet your answers are just about right. And it gives people a reason to grapple.
#5 ff6shadow Aug 25, 2008 17:05:13	ALso, I beleive that customer service stated that you only need one hand to use a staff implement, not two. You only need two to use it as a weapon. And just becuase your halfling can't wield a quarterstaff as a weapon, he should have no problem wielding it as an implement.
#6 Cohen95 Aug 25, 2008 17:22:25	And just becuase your halfling can't wield a quarterstaff as a weapon, he should have no problem wielding it as an implement. This. A staff is a shaft of wood as tall or slightly taller than you are, sometimes crowned with a decorative crystal or some other arcane fetish. Fashioned either as a quarterstaff or a walking staff, it is also imbued with arcane enchantments so that you can channel your spells through it. It then goes on to say that you can treat a staff as a quarterstaff, but that's not really viable for small creatures, although, specific beats general, so who knows. Think Yoda. He had that walking stick. That could be a Staff Implement, without being a quarterstaff.
#7 kuonji Aug 25, 2008 17:28:36	Cohen95 pretty much sums up my feelings on these rules. On a side note, why do you feel these changes are needed?
#8 zombiegleemax Aug 25, 2008 20:30:43	Mostly what fits my particular gaming group. Might help you all of you see my reasoning, so to quote myself... << reasons>> * Blasts/Bursts/Area attacks: As an option, only roll hit and damage once per attack, compare result to each creature, and apply same damage to speed up play. Does not apply to powers with primary/secondary targets or attacks. << Note it's an option to the caster. I use it more than the players just to speed up play. They've used it a few times when they were already sure they'd hit most of the targets anyway. >> * Light Blades: In keeping with the line of “reward accuracy as much as force” a character can use the higher of his STR or DEX modifiers on basic attacks with light blades. Damage is still based on STR. << Considered a feat, then decided to just make it an inherent feature of the weapon for simplicity's sake (and there are already so many feats too choose from). Damage is still STR based unless you are a Rogue anyway. >> * Grabs: An attacker can also render a grabbed opponent prone. This is a STR attack vs. Reflex or Fortitude, whichever is greater. << I decided on the greater of the two defense because in my actual grappling experience, there are two types of counters to being thrown. Being slippery, or just being to strong/steady to throw. >> * Masterwork Armors: Can occasionally be found in non-enchanted varieties in treasure and for sale (usually found unfinished). If for sale (or selling un-enchanted) they cost as much as a magic armor of their type with their minimum enhancement bonus -1. << While you're right that the wording is unclear, part of my game home brew world is that there was a 'world' war right up till the big FUBAR. I figure some stuff in the war forges, so to speak, had to be unfinished. Your points are valid however, and I will be considering this one. They have a few levels before they'd find any of this stuff anyway. >> * Action Points: Gain extra ones on a combat roll of 20. Only one per encounter can be used for extra actions. Others can be used for a +1d6 to a d20 combat/skill roll. << This is simply cause I came out of Eberron, and still like action points as die adders. Only one can be used for extra actions per encounter. I was going to add that these go away after the encounter they were gained in to prevent hoarding them, but my players already use them as soon as they get them, so it would have been a moot point. >> * 'Small' Wizards: Gain weapon proficiency in the club instead of the quarterstaff. Staffs (the magic kind) can still be used as implements with the Enchant Magic Item ritual to resize it. << One of the players decided on Halfling Wizard. I was not going to short him half his weapon proficiencies and 1/3 his implements just because he wanted to play a non-optimal (stereotype) character. >> * Implements: Non-magic implements provide a +1 to the attack/activation roll only, while magic ones add a +1 (or more) to both attack/activation roll and damage/effects. << To clear up; non-magic ones are a +1 to attack rolls. Magic ones are their usual bonus to both attack and damage. I did this because the math otherwise means starting level one characters might as well be martial, at least they get a +2 or +3 to every attack. This serves to get Arcane and Divine casters closer to the same starting bonuses on attack. Once people start getting magic items, it all balances out anyway. >> This is, incidentally, the exact opposite reaction of the people over at ENWorld. They for the most part liked my variants.
#9 Armisael Aug 26, 2008 6:34:53	Mostly what fits my particular gaming group. Might help you all of you see my reasoning, so to quote myself... << reasons>> This is, incidentally, the exact opposite reaction of the people over at ENWorld. They for the most part liked my variants. The last one is misguided, though. Casters AREN'T supposed to be "closer to martial". Why? Martial is attacking AC, which is going to be usually THREE points higher! If you give them more, give the martial characters another +1. And the action point variant should not exist, not in 4th. Remember, AB is extremely hard to come by this edition. Having multiple shots of it is totally broken. This is not 3.5, when you had a crapton of enhancements. Here, that AP option is gone and should not, must not, come back.
#10 tylelian Aug 26, 2008 22:13:44	House Rules v1.0 Blasts/Bursts/Area attacks: As an option, only roll hit and damage once per attack, compare result to each creature, and apply same damage to speed up play. Does not apply to powers with primary/secondary targets or attacks. This swings an AOE spell wildly. The potential is that a spell could miss all creatures on a low roll and wipe the encounter on a natural 20. I am sorry but I have to agree with everyone else on this. Light Blades: In keeping with the line of “reward accuracy as much as force” a character can use the higher of his STR or DEX modifiers on basic attacks with light blades. Damage is still based on STR. Fine as a 13 Dex Heroic feat as suggested. Grabs: An attacker can also render a grabbed opponent prone. This is a STR attack vs. Reflex or Fortitude, whichever is greater. Fort is the standard for knocking stuff down usually. It should also be a minor action at the very least. Masterwork Armors: Can occasionally be found in non-enchanted varieties in treasure and for sale (usually found unfinished). If for sale (or selling un-enchanted) they cost as much as a magic armor of their type with their minimum enhancement bonus -1. This one is iffy for me. The fact that there is no longer non-magical masterwork armor saddens Dwarven armorers everwhere. I can't give you advice on this as I haven't come to a conclusion that satifies me. Action Points: Gain extra ones on a combat roll of 20. Only one per encounter can be used for extra actions. Others can be used for a +1d6 to a d20 combat/skill roll. I am not adverse to giving extra action points here and there for extrodinary circumstances, but a complete random distribution of APs strikes me as dangerous. 'Small' Wizards: Gain weapon proficiency in the club instead of the quarterstaff. Staffs (the magic kind) can still be used as implements with the Enchant Magic Item ritual to resize it. I would just make small size quarterstaffs (1d6) and have done with it. Implements: Non-magic implements provide a +1 to the attack/activation roll only, while magic ones add a +1 (or more) to both attack/activation roll and damage/effects. I am not in favor of "non-magic" implements to enhance spells, but if I were this would not be unreasonable. The added comments are my take on it.
#11 Cohen95 Aug 26, 2008 22:40:46	Tylelian, you hit a thought I was mulling around, so I'll let it fly: Just have the small character's Quarterstaff flavored to look smaller, but mechanically function like a Club. +2 Prof, 1d6, two-handed, counts as staff weapon type.
#12 Novacat Aug 26, 2008 22:41:51	The AoE rule is a terrible idea, as mentioned. It's basically all-or-nothing in most cases. Liken it unto 3E's Fireball, and having everyone's Reflex save be based on the same die roll. A single nat 1 or nat 20 affects everyone for some reason. The bonus for non-magical implements completely screws the balance of Attack and Defenses. AC is almost always higher than other defenses, which is why weapons get a proficiency bonus. If you give a bonus to implements, you are needlessly strengthening all casters, while simultaneously weakening martial characters by comparison.
#13 guamae Aug 27, 2008 0:16:14	Light Blades: In keeping with the line of “reward accuracy as much as force” a character can use the higher of his STR or DEX modifiers on basic attacks with light blades. Damage is still based on STR. (i think using Str for damage is a half measure and a bad idea) I was thinking about this rule too ... and something inside me wants to say "no" just because it's against the "rules" ... but at the same time i still think "why not?" The thing that could make it over-powered is then (with a Light Blade) Dex would be for AC (primary defense) and attack. Of course, that AC bonus goes away once you wear Heavy Armor, and Plate is pretty well equivalent to having Max Possible Dex and Hide. Also, Light Blades are pretty well universally inferior to Heavy Blades (not counting Feats) and it would make Rogues less special. ... but do Rogues really need to be more special?? [*]Masterwork Armors: Can occasionally be found in non-enchanted varieties in treasure and for sale (usually found unfinished). If for sale (or selling un-enchanted) they cost as much as a magic armor of their type with their minimum enhancement bonus -1. I actually like this idea. But i would make them cost the same as an enchanted armor of that effect, but be harder to enchant. I.e. Feyweave armor (+1 ac) would be a lvl 1 item but you'd need to be lvl 6 before you could make +1 Feyweave armor. (of course you could make +4 Feyweave at lvl 16 as normal). And it would cost more to make masterwork Plate than Masterwork Hide (because it has a bigger enhancement bonus). 'Small' Wizards: Gain weapon proficiency in the club instead of the quarterstaff. Staffs (the magic kind) can still be used as implements with the Enchant Magic Item ritual to resize it. I don't see why Small Wizards couldn't use smaller sticks as implements and still beat folk with them. Really, it's just silly and confining ourselves to words written into a book and completely ignoring one's imagination. Just put a line in under "Short Quarterstaff" in the 1H line, it does 1d6, is an implement and is Versatile ... really, give me one reason why not? The bonus for non-magical implements completely screws the balance of Attack and Defenses. AC is almost always higher than other defenses, which is why weapons get a proficiency bonus. If you give a bonus to implements, you are needlessly strengthening all casters, while simultaneously weakening martial characters by comparison. You all seam to be forgetting that this bonus will only matter for around 2 levels until the caster can afford (or find) a magical implement. That being said, i'd sooner have the bonus be to damage than Acc because those are more common.
#14 netraptor2345_dup Aug 27, 2008 11:27:39	Blasts/Bursts/Area attacks: As an option, only roll hit and damage once per attack, compare result to each creature, and apply same damage to speed up play. Does not apply to powers with primary/secondary targets or attacks. I tried this for one session before, and it worked out horribly. It is way too swingy. Light Blades: In keeping with the line of “reward accuracy as much as force” a character can use the higher of his STR or DEX modifiers on basic attacks with light blades. Damage is still based on STR. I'd rather have a feat that lets you use Str instead of Dex for both attack and damage. But, it's not a bad rule otherwise. Grabs: An attacker can also render a grabbed opponent prone. This is a STR attack vs. Reflex or Fortitude, whichever is greater. Instead of moving them, I presume? If so, it's fine. Otherwise, it's probably the territory of feats/powers. Masterwork Armors: Can occasionally be found in non-enchanted varieties in treasure and for sale (usually found unfinished). If for sale (or selling un-enchanted) they cost as much as a magic armor of their type with their minimum enhancement bonus -1. Unless I'm reading this wrong, the cost is far too much. You are better off having +3 magic cloth armor (+3 enhancement bonus to AC) than feyweave cloth armor (+1 armor to AC, non-magical), even though they cost the same. Action Points: Gain extra ones on a combat roll of 20. I have something similar in my house rules. Basically, Humans get a "Conviction" ability that they can use once per day to give themselves a bonus action point when they roll a natural 20 on a saving throw. It still has yet to come up, though. Either way, I'm not opposed to the rule in principle, but I would limit to happening only once per day or something similar. Only one per encounter can be used for extra actions. Others can be used for a +1d6 to a d20 combat/skill roll. I have the same rule, except at Paragon tier, you roll 2d6, keep highest, and at Epic, 3d6, keep highest. Pretty much just the Action Point rules from 3.5e. 'Small' Wizards: Gain weapon proficiency in the club instead of the quarterstaff. Staffs (the magic kind) can still be used as implements with the Enchant Magic Item ritual to resize it. I use a modified version of the 3.5e weapon size rules (just drops the -2 penalty for improperly sized weapons), so I don't really have this problem :P Implements: Non-magic implements provide a +1 to the attack/activation roll only, while magic ones add a +1 (or more) to both attack/activation roll and damage/effects. I similarly give a +1 proficiency bonus to implements. Gives an actual reason to have a non-magical implement, instead of it just being a waste of money.
#15 zombiegleemax Sep 05, 2008 14:30:54	Ok, after reading the feedback here, taking some other ideas I saw into consideration, I think I got the final house rules for my home game. Reasoning is in the << >> after each item. House Rules v1.5 Blasts/Bursts/Area attacks: At the attacker option, only roll hit and damage once per attack, compare result to each creature, and apply same damage. Does not apply to powers with primary/secondary targets or attacks. <> Light Blades: In keeping with the line of “reward accuracy as much as force” a character can use the higher of his STR or DEX modifiers on basic attacks with light blades. Damage is still based on STR. <> Grabs: An attacker can also render a grabbed opponent prone. This is a STR attack vs. Reflex or Fortitude, whichever is greater. Damage for this throw attack is 1d4 + STR mod. << Yes, to clarify, this is instead of moving them. >> Heavy Armors & Endurance: Heavy Armors, like in real life, have an 'undercoat' made of leather. A character can 'partially' undress the armor, leaving the undercoat, for minimal protection (+1 AC, not as thinck as actual Leather Armor) while camping/sleeping/etc. Sleeping in heavy armor requires an endurance check. Failure means the character wakes with 2 less healing surges than normal. << Couldn't figure the masterwork armor idea into the economy of my game, saw this as an idea for the two defenders who are afraid to sleep at camp. >> Action Points: In addition to gains from milestones, an action point is gained the first time a character gets bloodied in an encounter. << Might change that to day, but I don't see my players purposly hanging aroudn bloodied just to get a one use per encounter action point. Dropped to bonus die roll. >> 'Small' Wizards: Gain weapon proficiency in the short staff instead of the quarterstaff. [Treat as staff that does 1d6 damage, weighs 3 lbs, Versatile.] Staffs (the magic kind) can still be used as implements. << I like the shortstaff idea. Done. >> Implements: Non-magic implements provide a +1 to the attack/activation roll only, while magic ones add a +1 (or more) to both attack/activation roll and damage/effects. << Only useful at first/second levels, after that it's subsumed by the magic ones. >> Thanks for the input folks.