| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1GoblinGravyApr 30, 2011 17:53:43 | Hey everyone, I thought I might try my hand at a new insectoid race, and where better to start rather than ants? So anyway, let's get to the stats... Show Formicid RACIAL TRAITS: Average Height:5'9'' - 6'10'' Average Weight: 280 lbs - 330 lbs Ability scores: +2 to strength, +2 to Dexterity or +2 to Wisdom Size: Medium Speed: 5 Vision: Low-Light, tremorsense 2 Languages: Common, choice of one other Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Endurance Constant diligence: You gain a +1 racial bonus to perception checks. Amazing Muscle: When making strength checks and non-jump Athletics checks, roll twice and use either result. Call of the Colony: You gain "Call of the Colony" as an encounter power. Call of the Colony Formicid Racial Power Encounter Minor action Personal Effect: If you are wielding a one handed weapon as a two-handed weapon, you gain a +2 racial bonus to your next attack roll. Increases to +4 at level 11, and +6 at level 21. Feats: Antoid harmony (heroic): While outdoors, you gain a +2 racial bonus to nature checks. Stronger Than I Look (heroic) : You can use versatile weapons in one hand. When wielding a versatile weapon with two hands, the extra damage bonus is +2. Unfazed warrior (paragon): When you are first bloodied during an encounter, you may make an opportunity attack on an adjacent enemy. |
| #2SamrinApr 30, 2011 19:28:11 | Why not just use the Thri-kreen? |
| #3Mad_JackApr 30, 2011 21:10:04 |
I believe they call it a Burrow speed... And it's probably a bit overpowered for a character race.
This is incredibly overpowered. Some characters could easily get that +2 AC bonus at 1st level, and almost all of them by 3rd. By 30th level, some characters could be getting a + 8 or +10 to their AC...
You should probably make this a free action rather than an immediate interrupt.
This is also incredibly overpowered - compare this to the damage-dealing racial powers of other races such as the half-orc, which deals an extra 1[W] or 1d8 and doesn't scale with level...
This is hideously overpowered. There are a number of items and epic destiny features that allow you to regain daily powers once a day. There are entire character builds centered around regaining powers, and giving them the ability to get a daily back after every fight is insanely powerful. |
| #4rampantApr 30, 2011 21:11:50 | Because kreen are a jumpy, speedy, stabby race, the OP seems to be after a more rippy, beaty, crushy race. Now Thick carapace is amazingly overpowered and every single member of this race is going to end up playing a warden. I'd advise removing the dig speed, because it's pretty potent for a 1st level feature, and make it into the encounter power, burrow x squares and create some difficult terrain somewhere. I'd also consider axing lowlight vision, this isn't a priority, but there's plenty more ant-ish abilities to try out in its place. Next up I'm gonna suggest you rework fury of the hive into something like a flat bonus against enemies adjacent to your allies, make it a feature instead of a power. Suggestions for additional features include (warning will probably need some refinement these are rough ideas) Compound eyes: Enemies only get +1 to attack rolls when they have combat advantage against you. Formic Adaptation: acid resist 5 + 1/2 level Steady: Get a save to avoid being knocked prone or knocked off a surface you are climbing |
| #5SamrinApr 30, 2011 21:13:38 | Because kreen are a jumpy, speedy, stabby race, the OP seems to be after a more rippy, beaty, crushy race. Kreen can be that, too. It's only flavor, anyway. They make extremely good brutes. |
| #6rampantApr 30, 2011 21:19:23 | True you should have seen my 3e kreen, Kichit inventor of the orc-kabob. But the mechanics of a race have a certain 'feel', kreen 'feel' more stabby than beaty. Besides ants and mantids are very different creatures, and quite frankly some people just like making races. |
| #7GoblinGravyMay 01, 2011 9:21:51 | Alright, I made some changes to balance the race out. Also, any name suggestions? |
| #8RavenmancerMay 01, 2011 9:40:55 | Well Myrmidons were the original mythilogical ant people, so you could go with that. |
| #9Crimson_ConcertoMay 01, 2011 11:24:25 | I'd love to take a look at your race, but for some reason, I can't open your spoiler block at all. Can somebody post whatever's going on just not in a spoiler block? |
| #10FedosuMay 01, 2011 12:49:26 | I'd love to take a look at your race, but for some reason, I can't open your spoiler block at all. Can somebody post whatever's going on just not in a spoiler block? Ant-Man (needs name) RACIAL TRAITS: Average Height:5'9'' - 6'10'' Average Weight: 280 lbs - 330 lbs Ability scores: +2 to strength, +2 to Dexterity Size: Medium Speed: 6 Vision: Low-Light Languages: Common, choice of one other Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Endurance Thick Carapace: Gain a +1 to AC for each 40 HP that you have. Call of the Colony: You gain "Call of the Colony" as an encounter power. Call of the Colony "Ant-Man" Ant-Man Racial Power Encounter Minor action Personal Effect: You gain burrow speed 4 until the end of your next turn. Feats: Servant of the Colony (paragon): Your "Call of the Colony" burrow speed increases to 6, and the duration of the ability lasts one of your turns longer. |
| #11IgfigMay 01, 2011 12:59:48 | You really need to change Thick Carapace. A flat +1 bonus to AC is plenty. As it is, you're both pigeonholing the race into high-hp classes, and scaling something that shouldn't scale. (And even if it did scale, it wouldn't scale like that.) I'd also split one of those ability scores into two choices, if I were you, and find a way to rephrase the Servant of the Colony feat less awkwardly. Low-light vision should definitely stay; ant-people live underground, after all. I also feel like you could stand to add another minor racial trait; right now, the only unique things your antfolks have are their racial power and an AC bonus. For the name, how about Formians? That's what antfolk were called in 3e, I recall. |
| #12MithrusMay 02, 2011 13:28:38 | IMO, Thick Carapace just needs to go. As others have stated, scaling bonuses as a racial feature is too hard to balance (if not just impossible). Instead of low-light vision, perhaps blindsight 2? Strong, but not overly so. To have the feel of a "hive mind", have a +1 racial bonus to aid other attempts (+3 bonus instead of +2). I think a re-skinned thri-kreen would work just fine also. |
| #13Crimson_ConcertoMay 02, 2011 14:41:14 | Thanks, Fedosu. ^_^ First things first, though, on the name. The suffixes "-man", "-men", and so on are to be avoided because they're kind of sexist. If you must use a generic suffix, something gender-neutral like "-folk", "-people", and so on are much better. Besides, these are ants that we're talking about here, and the vast majority of ants are female. If you're going to create a race of ant-people, that's probably something that you should acknowledge. Ants make up the family Formicidae, so possible names could include Formicid, Formica, Formiga, or some other kind of variation of that. Ability scores: +2 to Strength, +2 to Dexterity Fine, but the preferred racial ability score bonus convention since the PHB3 has been "+2 X and either +2 Y or +2 Z" to allow races greater flexibility in what sorts of classes and builds they can play more optimally. In this case, I have difficulty imagining the race getting any mental ability score bonuses, but something like STR // CON / DEX or DEX // STR / CON could work just fine. Size: Medium It always strikes me as odd that whenever people decide to make "Giant Humanoid Insect" races, they always go with Medium size and never Small size. This doesn't really matter one way or the other; it's just an observation. It just seems like a missed opportunity to create another good Small size race. Thick Carapace: Gain a +1 to AC for each 40 HP that you have. This is bad for a lot of reasons. The first is that permanent racial AC bonuses in general are a no-no; in other words, this race could only get a +1 racial bonus to AC ever and that would still be inappropriate. It's debatable whether or not it's overpowered, but regardless, it presents a couple of issues of internal consistency; after all, what sense does it makes that a race of ant-people can get a racial AC bonus to rival Plate Armor but Warforged can't even match Leather Armor? However, the much bigger problem here, the problem that others have pointed out, is that this specific method of granting an AC bonus is definitely very, very overpowered. It doesn't matter that it's the only racial feature that it gets; it's still too much. Call of the Colony "Ant-Man" Ant-Man Racial Power I'm going to suggest against giving them this as their racial encounter power. Remember, one of the design purposes of the racial encounter power is to give a character something to do most if not every encounter that can be attributed to race. A burrow speed just isn't going to come up that often. Furthermore, any burrow speed at all is problematic on a PC race even on an encounter basis because of how it screw with dungons. In other words, this power is just too useful some ways and just too useless others. |
| #14GoblinGravyMay 02, 2011 18:25:05 | changes have been made! |
| #15rampantMay 02, 2011 20:29:15 | Ok GG let's go over a basic rule of racial feature construction: Each racial feature should be theoretically useful and attractive to any class and role. So that means among other things that weapon based racial powers are right out. Especially such a restrictive and limiting one. Amazing muscle needs to be made clearer, what does a check involving strength even mean? does that mean skill checks and strength checks? How about just increasing their encumbrance limit, you know like how ants can carry 100 times their weight. Constant dilligence is ok but doesn't really seem like it deserves it's own feature. What about an ability that grants allies in x squares a bonus to endurance or something, like the elf's group awareness ability? |
| #16Crimson_ConcertoMay 03, 2011 5:43:45 | Yay, I can open the spoiler blocks now! ^_^ But yeah, I'm going to echo pretty much everything that rampant just said. The racial power has quite a number of issues. Racial features and powers should be broadly useful to all members of a race no matter what sort of class or role they decide to play. A racial power that requires the use of a weapon to function is just too narrow to make for an acceptable racial power, let alone a racial power that requires the use of a specific type of weapon. Even if it were acceptable for a racial power to be so restrictive, however, you'd still have the problems here that a +2 bonus to your next attack is just too underpowered at first level and that a +6 bonus to your next attack is just too overpowered at thirtieth level, for a racial power anyway. Attack bonuses like this do not need to scale because a +4 bonus to attack is just as useful at 30th level as it was at 1st level. Damage is what needs to scale. As for Amazing Muscle, I have to agree both that the feature is too vague and that you could do something more interesting with it than simply having it grant a bonus to strength checks. Even something as simple as a bonus to carrying capacity or getting to roll twice when making strength ability score checks would be more interesting. And finally, I again have to agree that Constant Diligence is just too minor as is, and even if the bonus were higher, a simple check bonus is just kind of boring for a racial feature. |
| #17MithrusMay 03, 2011 9:27:16 | Consider these racial features: Size: Small Speed: 5 Vision: Normal Antennae: You gain a +5 racial bonus to Perception checks for detecting invisible or hidden creatures, and reduce the penalty to attack rolls to -2 for being blinded. Encumbered Speed: as Dwarf feature. Innate Strength: When making strength checks and non-jump Athletics checks, roll twice and use either result. Torpor: as Thri-kreen feature. Bite: You gain the Bite Racial power Bite Minor Action Melee 1 Attack: highest stat mod+3 vs Fortitude Level 11: highest stat mod+6 vs Fortitude Level 21: highest stat mod+9 vs Fortitude Hit: 1d6 + highest stat mod damage, and the target is grabbed. The target takes highest stat mod damage on failed escape attempts from this grab. Feats Stronger Than I Look: You can use versatile weapons in one hand. When wielding a versatile weapon with two hands, the extra damage bonus is +2. |
| #18Crimson_ConcertoMay 03, 2011 10:07:39 | Blindsight 2 Questionable both thematically (I don't get it; why should ants have blindsense?) and mechanically (seems pretty useless to ranged characters). Encumbered Speed: as Dwarf feature. The Dwarf feature in question also has the design flaw of being awesome for some characters while being practically useless to others. A feature that elmininates the speed penalty from heavy armor isn't necessarily bad, but it should be accompanied by a feature that grants some sort of bonus to characters wearing light or no armor. Innate Strength: When making strength checks and strength ability checks, roll twice and use either result. What's the difference between a "strength check" and a "strength ability check"? If the suggestion is that this also applies to all uses of the Athletics skill, then I have to say that sounds too powerful when comparing to the Goliath. Torpor: as Thri-kreen feature. Note: This should be a staple feature for all insectoid races. Contrary to popular belief, insects do sleep. It's very different from sleep as we usually think of it, and the Torpor feature is a good enough way of modeling that mechanically for some species, I guess, but the idea that insects don't require sleep is actually somewhat of a myth. Bite First, this is too melee centric. A racial attack power with a range of Melee 1 or Close burst 1 is already pushing it, but a grab effect on a hit is just too much. Pretty much no ranged character will ever want to use this. Second, that "Effect" should not be an "Effect". It doesn't apply unless the target gets hit, so it should be part of the "Hit" line. The damage done would also need to be specified. Third, if this attack is going to target AC as opposed to a non-AC defense, then its attack bonus scaling needs to be two or three points higher. |
| #19MithrusMay 03, 2011 10:31:40 | The blindsight concept is essentially the new Tremorsense as I understand it. The intent was to have a racial feature that is special, but not overpowered. Ants are very sensitive to vibrations, and don't really use their eyes to "see". Perhaps it should be blindsight 5, but that may be OP. This could instead be a flat +5 racial bonus to perception to detect invisible or hidden non-flying creatures. For Encumbered Speed and Torpor, I'd rather re-use existing racial features when it makes sense. I agree it's not beneficial to every class, but that is true for dwarves as much as for ants. If WotC ever decides to update the dwarven feature, this race should receive similar treatment. For Innate Strength, that should have been strength SKILL checks. My bad. Perhaps limit it to strength and non-jump-related Athletics checks. I agree the bite power is too melee centric, but I'm at a loss for another racial power that would be meaningful and generic enough for all classes. Now, we could go with a multi-power approach, where you get to chose from several. Perhaps have different ones based on role, eg.: a soldier (defender/striker) vs worker (controller?) vs queen (leader). Note: changed the post above to reflect some of CC's suggestions. |
| #20alitainMay 03, 2011 13:29:52 | The blindsight concept is essentially the new Tremorsense as I understand it. The intent was to have a racial feature that is special, but not overpowered. Ants are very sensitive to vibrations, and don't really use their eyes to "see". Perhaps it should be blindsight 5, but that may be OP. This could instead be a flat +5 racial bonus to perception to detect invisible or hidden non-flying creatures. You can just give them say, Tremorsense 1 since that at least thematically fits better than blindsight. There're boots that give tremorsense 1 that a friend of mine used for awhile, and they came in real handy, yet wasn't really OP. Just do that. Don't see why you didn't just go with tremorsense instead of blindsight. I'll disagree though that the Bite attack is too melee centric. Ranged character can use it perfectly well since it relies on highest stat instead of say Str. As one who's played bothed ranged and melee, I see no problem in it. Sure, it's not something that I would consider purposely trying to use every combat but neither are a lot of racial powers. And if the enemy was adjacent to me I might as well get a hit in, what if as a ranged character there were other enemies around so even if I shifted 1 sq from the adjacent enemy I'd still provoke OA from other enemies? It's happened before in our games, and you either take the OA, or maybe use a close attack if you have one, but why not get a little bite in? See no issue with it. |
| #21MithrusMay 03, 2011 14:14:33 | You can just give them say, Tremorsense 1 since that at least thematically fits better than blindsight. There're boots that give tremorsense 1 that a friend of mine used for awhile, and they came in real handy, yet wasn't really OP. Just do that. Don't see why you didn't just go with tremorsense instead of blindsight. I haven't looked at the MMs in a while, and I was thinking blindsight replaced tremorsense (like darkvision replaced infravision). A range of 1 is marginally useful IMO, and mostly only if you are a melee'er. But yeah, I'll add a Tremorsense to the race block. Thanks ![]() |
| #22GoblinGravyMay 03, 2011 14:30:42 | What do encumbered speed and torpor do? Also, anyone up for working on a goron race? |
| #23Crimson_ConcertoMay 03, 2011 15:04:28 | This could instead be a flat +5 racial bonus to perception to detect invisible or hidden non-flying creatures. Actually, I think that something like this would work out pretty well. Again, Tremorsense 1 would be practically worthless to non-melee characters, so something more generally useful like this would be better. I agree it's not beneficial to every class, but that is true for dwarves as much as for ants. If WotC ever decides to update the dwarven feature, this race should receive similar treatment. Just because the developers made a mistake with an existing race doesn't mean that the same mistake shouldn't be called out for home-brew races. Instead of willfully deciding to repeat the developers' mistakes, I suggest that you learn from them to make your own races even better. For Innate Strength, that should have been strength SKILL checks. My bad. Perhaps limit it to strength and non-jump-related Athletics checks. I would suggest limiting it to Climb checks and Strength ability checks. Any more than that risks overpowering the feature compared to the similar Goliath feature. I agree the bite power is too melee centric, but I'm at a loss for another racial power that would be meaningful and generic enough for all classes. You could try going with something psychological instead of physiological. For example, a very important part of what it means to be an ant is that you're a very social animal. You don't solo anything; you depend on your colony. Try creating a racial power that reinforces that idea. Here's a rough idea: Colony Mind Encounter Free Action, Personal Trigger: You attack an enemy that has been hit by one of your allies' attacks since the end of your last turn. Effect: Your attack against that enemy gains combat advantage. If you hit with this attack, then the next attack made against that enemy before the start of your next turn by one of your allies gains combat advantage. You can just give them say, Tremorsense 1 since that at least thematically fits better than blindsight. There're boots that give tremorsense 1 that a friend of mine used for awhile, and they came in real handy, yet wasn't really OP. Just do that. Don't see why you didn't just go with tremorsense instead of blindsight. Again, just to emphasize the point, tremorsense 1 is basically worthless to non-melee characters, so it should be avoided. I'll disagree though that the Bite attack is too melee centric. Ranged character can use it perfectly well since it relies on highest stat instead of say Str. As one who's played bothed ranged and melee, I see no problem in it. Sure, it's not something that I would consider purposely trying to use every combat but neither are a lot of racial powers. And if the enemy was adjacent to me I might as well get a hit in, what if as a ranged character there were other enemies around so even if I shifted 1 sq from the adjacent enemy I'd still provoke OA from other enemies? It's happened before in our games, and you either take the OA, or maybe use a close attack if you have one, but why not get a little bite in? See no issue with it. The issue is the grab. If it were simply a melee 1 attack, then I'd just let it go. Sure, it's not as useful to ranged characters as it is to melee characters, but it's not like ranged characters never find themselves in melee, so it'd still get used quite often enough to fulfill the purpose of a racial power. It's the grab, however, that crosses the line. It commits the character to staying in melee, and that's very different from being in melee. Now, if the damage were reduced and the effect were changed so that it slowed the target or something, then that might be all right. But a racial power that's useful independant of a character's class or role is still preferable. |
| #24MithrusMay 03, 2011 15:48:38 | I like your ideas CC. Here's a revised version: Ability scores: +2 to strength, +2 to Dexterity or +2 to Wisdom Size: Small Speed: 5 Vision: Normal Antennae: You gain a +5 racial bonus to Perception checks for detecting invisible or hidden creatures. Colony Mind: You gain the Colony Mind racial power Innate Strength: When making Strength checks and Climb (Athletics) checks, roll twice and use either result. Ignore encumbrance penalties for being small. Steady Feet: Once per round, ignore the additional movement cost for the first square of difficult terrain you enter. Torpor: Rather than sleep, this race enters a torpor state. In this state, you remain aware of your surroundings, and you require only 4 hours of torpor (rather than 6 hours of sleep) to gain the benefit of an extended rest. Colony Mind Encounter Free Action, Personal Trigger: You attack an enemy that has been hit by one of your allies' attacks since the end of your last turn. Effect: Your attack against that enemy gains combat advantage. If you hit with this attack, then the next attack made against that enemy before the start of your next turn by one of your allies gains combat advantage. Feats Stronger Than I Look ([race] or Small, Str 13): You can use versatile weapons in one hand. When wielding a versatile weapon with two hands, the extra damage bonus is +2. |
| #25ADHadhMay 04, 2011 9:40:35 | Have the Formians been mentioned yet? Someone should have mentioned Formians already. They were lawful ant people from previous editions. |
| #26rampantMay 04, 2011 18:46:24 | How about a minor feature that doubles their encumbrance limit? |
| #27MithrusMay 05, 2011 9:31:48 | How about a minor feature that doubles their encumbrance limit? I like it, although double seems a bit much (Granted, encumbrance rarely comes into play). I added a 50% bonus as a secondary effect of the Innate Strength feature. |
| #28rampantMay 05, 2011 9:53:12 | But doesn't small already cut their encumbrance? Maybe enough to cancel that out? |
| #29MithrusMay 05, 2011 10:04:56 | But doesn't small already cut their encumbrance? Maybe enough to cancel that out? Good question. I don't have my books handy, but I agree if there is an encumbrance penalty for being small, I'll reword it to just remove that penalty. |
| #30WolvercoteMay 06, 2012 17:59:27 | Aspis. They were a race of ant-men back in 1E. Always wanted them to get an entry in the MM. |