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Antimagic and 4E

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
ellros
Sep 22, 2011 21:09:39
     Just looking for ideas from fellow DM's...

   How do you (or how would you) handle anti-magic effects in 4E?   Dead-magic zones and the like?    At present I've been using the basic effects of a Beholder's central eye... ie no encounter or daily power use. But I'm looking for other ideas.
#2
Eisenritter
Sep 22, 2011 21:13:51 Dark Sun Creature Catalog, p.135, offers Dead Magic terrain:  A character standing in such an area takes a -5 penalty to the attack roll of any arcane or primal power, and can't use the arcane defiling power.
#3
pluisjen
Sep 23, 2011 2:18:32 Personally I'd start by asking why would you handle anti magic effects. Do you have such a big problem with magic users or do you just enjoy nerfing them?

If you want to create an anti-magic zone for the flavor I'd start by making ritual casting impossible, magic items not to function (and picking challenges appropriately, your players will have it rough) and maybe giving every creature in the zone a flat +5 bonus to saving throws as magic quickly peters out. You can even rule that creatures under a certain level can't use magic at all.

But don't disallow or grossly penalise one or two characters in your group and do nothing to the others for flavor, because that's generally very frustrating for them. Reinforce how special they are by letting their magic work to some extent in the zone where others can't do anything, don't just tell them "you, you and you are now useless, go sit in the corner for a few hours".
#4
rothe
Sep 23, 2011 2:31:44 I don't support anti-magic as an idea, but I'd rather support anti-supernatural.

For instance, you could have the beholder's central eye make a blast attack that gives you:
Cannot use item powers, encounter or daily powers (Save ends)

If you want to make it more powerful, just add something like:
Aftereffect: you take -2 to hit with item powers and encounter or daily powers (Save ends).

Those effects are fair to most PC's (although, essentials martial characters are little less penalized).
It should also convey the feeling of the Beholder sapping the PC's out of supernatural things.

That is what I would do.

Such an aura would already be problematic, since all melee encounter and daily powers would be quite useless.
#5
Samrin
Sep 23, 2011 4:15:08
Personally I'd start by asking why would you handle anti magic effects. Do you have such a big problem with magic users or do you just enjoy nerfing them?

If you want to create an anti-magic zone for the flavor I'd start by making ritual casting impossible, magic items not to function (and picking challenges appropriately, your players will have it rough) and maybe giving every creature in the zone a flat +5 bonus to saving throws as magic quickly peters out. You can even rule that creatures under a certain level can't use magic at all.

But don't disallow or grossly penalise one or two characters in your group and do nothing to the others for flavor, because that's generally very frustrating for them. Reinforce how special they are by letting their magic work to some extent in the zone where others can't do anything, don't just tell them "you, you and you are now useless, go sit in the corner for a few hours".

Basically this. Anti-magic basically means you should just tell the spellcasters to not show up that night. They won't be needed.
#6
pauln6
Sep 23, 2011 5:05:59 Different monsters are more or less vulnerable to different character builds so there is nothing wrong with making things tougher for certain types of character in a particular encounter. Just don't do it over the entire adventure and make sure that you don't favour or penalise particular power sources or characters too often compared to the others.

Possibilities could include damage resistance to arcane (or other) attacks, a bonus to saving throws against status effects from arcane (or other) powers (or possibly allowing creatures present to save at the start of their turn), a ban on ritual usage (possibly stripping away a healing surge if somebody tries), gaining temporary hp when hit by an arcane (or other) powers to simulate a lack of effectiveness, a ban on teleporting, only allowing usage on daily or encounter powers when spending an action point.

I wouldn't add an attack penalty though. Even if damage is limited the players still want to feel like they are contributing something.

Plus I would say that if you want parity, why shouldn't trolls get bonuses to save against martial status effects on any round that they don't take acid or fire damage?
#7
the_ubbergeek
Sep 23, 2011 5:25:33 Yes, antimagic fields and such suck for some characters indeed.

But storywise and such, it is not totaly a bad idea... you can imagine fluffwise ideas for it, reasons full of logics.

An idea to play with, but I have no freaking idea how to pull it, is to take the idea of fluctuating magic 'fields' so more. From wild magic like FR had (or have? did the 4th ed settign book have them still?), to the lowered and uppered magic fields like Shadowrun... Or even, SR again, their Toxic zones...
#8
Garthanos
Sep 23, 2011 6:14:19
Dark Sun Creature Catalog, p.135, offers Dead Magic terrain:  A character standing in such an area takes a -5 penalty to the attack roll of any arcane or primal power, and can't use the arcane defiling power.

One could have Nexus points to balance it out where the opposite occured...

Might be interesting to make the rating un predictable ... make Chaos Nexi where you roll one d6 to add and one to subtract ... heheh.

Personally I would be more inclined to modify damage dealt, less schwing bleh than modifying to hit.
#42
Novacat
Sep 24, 2011 3:56:27
I wonder how that would work for characters with their own flavor. My Monk is a Wizard and most of his attacks are martial in nature, while some are arcane, but technically they're all psionic. Powersource based rules would really lock down a lot of that flavor, I fear.

/shrug

That's something you'd have to take up with your DM, and your DM would have to take into account when designing the encounter with the limiting effect. That's to be expected when you do something the system doesn't expect you to do.
#43
Novacat
Sep 24, 2011 4:07:02 As a note, I'm not in favor of any kind of anti-magic effect in 4E; I'm just illustrating that it CAN be explained in-universe for any power source.

Antimagic effects were necessary in earlier editions because magic-users were godlike in power, and at higher levels it became REQUIRED to deal with them unless you had spells of your own and a higher initiative bonus. They were never an elegant solution to the problem, but they were a solution.

In 4E, that's no longer the case, so antimagic effects aren't required, and remain inelegant as a mechanical solution to any problem. They MIGHT be used as a thematic plot device, but even then should be used sparingly, and with consideration for the enjoyment of the affected players.
#44
shard_of_suzail
Sep 24, 2011 7:13:35 I would think that players might quite like being made to think once in a while. It's not the case that players find anti magic fields to be "not enjoyable", if anything they wake them up. A power they can use all the time that is never challenged is boring as heck.

This "the players must all be allowed to use their powers all the time, equally" nonsense, is the reason people are getting bored. Sometimes there will be rock creatures that make swords look like toothpicks, sometimes antimagic creatures and sometimes whole places that set such unusual restrictions. You need things like this to wake players up, otherwise every encounter is the same.

Note well that anything which restricts one player gives another a chance to shine. If the magic users have to hold back for an encounter, the martial characters get to save the day and vice versa. Again, the horrible theory of all players must get equal happiness in equal numbers of encounters just saps the will out of players and makes them no longer feel special. The time when joe the barbarian saves the day by wrestling the anti magic creature to death will be long remembered, unlike the endless times when everyone just does what they usually do.
#45
Samrin
Sep 24, 2011 7:51:36
I would think that players might quite like being made to think once in a while. It's not the case that players find anti magic fields to be "not enjoyable", if anything they wake them up. A power they can use all the time that is never challenged is boring as heck.

This "the players must all be allowed to use their powers all the time, equally" nonsense, is the reason people are getting bored. Sometimes there will be rock creatures that make swords look like toothpicks, sometimes antimagic creatures and sometimes whole places that set such unusual restrictions. You need things like this to wake players up, otherwise every encounter is the same.

Note well that anything which restricts one player gives another a chance to shine. If the magic users have to hold back for an encounter, the martial characters get to save the day and vice versa. Again, the horrible theory of all players must get equal happiness in equal numbers of encounters just saps the will out of players and makes them no longer feel special. The time when joe the barbarian saves the day by wrestling the anti magic creature to death will be long remembered, unlike the endless times when everyone just does what they usually do.

I couldn't disagree more. You're saying that one player's fun should be sacrificed for the sake of another. Being useless isn't fun.
#46
Garthanos
Sep 24, 2011 7:58:44
I wonder how that would work for characters with their own flavor. My Monk is a Wizard and most of his attacks are martial in nature, while some are arcane, but technically they're all psionic. Powersource based rules would really lock down a lot of that flavor, I fear.

Yup my Priest of Bachus is built as a fighter - If there are source targetting effects

Perhaps we just need to acknowledge source is well not just flavor text but a keyword that needs to be
defined - and allow that to be adjustable - We allow damage type to similarly be chosen ... an ice spell that slows might become a lightning spells that jangles the nerves causing slowing - but we litterally change the damage type not just the flavor.... ie my gaining of temp hit points from brv becomes divine and is written on the sheet as divine.

Conversely my Bloodwright (see my sig) would have the abilities formerly divine specified differently (as perhaps arcane?)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ellros Sep 22, 2011 21:09:39	Just looking for ideas from fellow DM's... How do you (or how would you) handle anti-magic effects in 4E? Dead-magic zones and the like? At present I've been using the basic effects of a Beholder's central eye... ie no encounter or daily power use. But I'm looking for other ideas.
#2 Eisenritter Sep 22, 2011 21:13:51	Dark Sun Creature Catalog, p.135, offers Dead Magic terrain: A character standing in such an area takes a -5 penalty to the attack roll of any arcane or primal power, and can't use the arcane defiling power.
#3 pluisjen Sep 23, 2011 2:18:32	Personally I'd start by asking why would you handle anti magic effects. Do you have such a big problem with magic users or do you just enjoy nerfing them? If you want to create an anti-magic zone for the flavor I'd start by making ritual casting impossible, magic items not to function (and picking challenges appropriately, your players will have it rough) and maybe giving every creature in the zone a flat +5 bonus to saving throws as magic quickly peters out. You can even rule that creatures under a certain level can't use magic at all. But don't disallow or grossly penalise one or two characters in your group and do nothing to the others for flavor, because that's generally very frustrating for them. Reinforce how special they are by letting their magic work to some extent in the zone where others can't do anything, don't just tell them "you, you and you are now useless, go sit in the corner for a few hours".
#4 rothe Sep 23, 2011 2:31:44	I don't support anti-magic as an idea, but I'd rather support anti-supernatural. For instance, you could have the beholder's central eye make a blast attack that gives you: Cannot use item powers, encounter or daily powers (Save ends) If you want to make it more powerful, just add something like: Aftereffect: you take -2 to hit with item powers and encounter or daily powers (Save ends). Those effects are fair to most PC's (although, essentials martial characters are little less penalized). It should also convey the feeling of the Beholder sapping the PC's out of supernatural things. That is what I would do. Such an aura would already be problematic, since all melee encounter and daily powers would be quite useless.
#5 Samrin Sep 23, 2011 4:15:08	Personally I'd start by asking why would you handle anti magic effects. Do you have such a big problem with magic users or do you just enjoy nerfing them? If you want to create an anti-magic zone for the flavor I'd start by making ritual casting impossible, magic items not to function (and picking challenges appropriately, your players will have it rough) and maybe giving every creature in the zone a flat +5 bonus to saving throws as magic quickly peters out. You can even rule that creatures under a certain level can't use magic at all. But don't disallow or grossly penalise one or two characters in your group and do nothing to the others for flavor, because that's generally very frustrating for them. Reinforce how special they are by letting their magic work to some extent in the zone where others can't do anything, don't just tell them "you, you and you are now useless, go sit in the corner for a few hours". Basically this. Anti-magic basically means you should just tell the spellcasters to not show up that night. They won't be needed.
#6 pauln6 Sep 23, 2011 5:05:59	Different monsters are more or less vulnerable to different character builds so there is nothing wrong with making things tougher for certain types of character in a particular encounter. Just don't do it over the entire adventure and make sure that you don't favour or penalise particular power sources or characters too often compared to the others. Possibilities could include damage resistance to arcane (or other) attacks, a bonus to saving throws against status effects from arcane (or other) powers (or possibly allowing creatures present to save at the start of their turn), a ban on ritual usage (possibly stripping away a healing surge if somebody tries), gaining temporary hp when hit by an arcane (or other) powers to simulate a lack of effectiveness, a ban on teleporting, only allowing usage on daily or encounter powers when spending an action point. I wouldn't add an attack penalty though. Even if damage is limited the players still want to feel like they are contributing something. Plus I would say that if you want parity, why shouldn't trolls get bonuses to save against martial status effects on any round that they don't take acid or fire damage?
#7 the_ubbergeek Sep 23, 2011 5:25:33	Yes, antimagic fields and such suck for some characters indeed. But storywise and such, it is not totaly a bad idea... you can imagine fluffwise ideas for it, reasons full of logics. An idea to play with, but I have no freaking idea how to pull it, is to take the idea of fluctuating magic 'fields' so more. From wild magic like FR had (or have? did the 4th ed settign book have them still?), to the lowered and uppered magic fields like Shadowrun... Or even, SR again, their Toxic zones...
#8 Garthanos Sep 23, 2011 6:14:19	Dark Sun Creature Catalog, p.135, offers Dead Magic terrain: A character standing in such an area takes a -5 penalty to the attack roll of any arcane or primal power, and can't use the arcane defiling power. One could have Nexus points to balance it out where the opposite occured... Might be interesting to make the rating un predictable ... make Chaos Nexi where you roll one d6 to add and one to subtract ... heheh. Personally I would be more inclined to modify damage dealt, less schwing bleh than modifying to hit.
#42 Novacat Sep 24, 2011 3:56:27	I wonder how that would work for characters with their own flavor. My Monk is a Wizard and most of his attacks are martial in nature, while some are arcane, but technically they're all psionic. Powersource based rules would really lock down a lot of that flavor, I fear. /shrug That's something you'd have to take up with your DM, and your DM would have to take into account when designing the encounter with the limiting effect. That's to be expected when you do something the system doesn't expect you to do.
#43 Novacat Sep 24, 2011 4:07:02	As a note, I'm not in favor of any kind of anti-magic effect in 4E; I'm just illustrating that it CAN be explained in-universe for any power source. Antimagic effects were necessary in earlier editions because magic-users were godlike in power, and at higher levels it became REQUIRED to deal with them unless you had spells of your own and a higher initiative bonus. They were never an elegant solution to the problem, but they were a solution. In 4E, that's no longer the case, so antimagic effects aren't required, and remain inelegant as a mechanical solution to any problem. They MIGHT be used as a thematic plot device, but even then should be used sparingly, and with consideration for the enjoyment of the affected players.
#44 shard_of_suzail Sep 24, 2011 7:13:35	I would think that players might quite like being made to think once in a while. It's not the case that players find anti magic fields to be "not enjoyable", if anything they wake them up. A power they can use all the time that is never challenged is boring as heck. This "the players must all be allowed to use their powers all the time, equally" nonsense, is the reason people are getting bored. Sometimes there will be rock creatures that make swords look like toothpicks, sometimes antimagic creatures and sometimes whole places that set such unusual restrictions. You need things like this to wake players up, otherwise every encounter is the same. Note well that anything which restricts one player gives another a chance to shine. If the magic users have to hold back for an encounter, the martial characters get to save the day and vice versa. Again, the horrible theory of all players must get equal happiness in equal numbers of encounters just saps the will out of players and makes them no longer feel special. The time when joe the barbarian saves the day by wrestling the anti magic creature to death will be long remembered, unlike the endless times when everyone just does what they usually do.
#45 Samrin Sep 24, 2011 7:51:36	I would think that players might quite like being made to think once in a while. It's not the case that players find anti magic fields to be "not enjoyable", if anything they wake them up. A power they can use all the time that is never challenged is boring as heck. This "the players must all be allowed to use their powers all the time, equally" nonsense, is the reason people are getting bored. Sometimes there will be rock creatures that make swords look like toothpicks, sometimes antimagic creatures and sometimes whole places that set such unusual restrictions. You need things like this to wake players up, otherwise every encounter is the same. Note well that anything which restricts one player gives another a chance to shine. If the magic users have to hold back for an encounter, the martial characters get to save the day and vice versa. Again, the horrible theory of all players must get equal happiness in equal numbers of encounters just saps the will out of players and makes them no longer feel special. The time when joe the barbarian saves the day by wrestling the anti magic creature to death will be long remembered, unlike the endless times when everyone just does what they usually do. I couldn't disagree more. You're saying that one player's fun should be sacrificed for the sake of another. Being useless isn't fun.
#46 Garthanos Sep 24, 2011 7:58:44	I wonder how that would work for characters with their own flavor. My Monk is a Wizard and most of his attacks are martial in nature, while some are arcane, but technically they're all psionic. Powersource based rules would really lock down a lot of that flavor, I fear. Yup my Priest of Bachus is built as a fighter - If there are source targetting effects Perhaps we just need to acknowledge source is well not just flavor text but a keyword that needs to be defined - and allow that to be adjustable - We allow damage type to similarly be chosen ... an ice spell that slows might become a lightning spells that jangles the nerves causing slowing - but we litterally change the damage type not just the flavor.... ie my gaining of temp hit points from brv becomes divine and is written on the sheet as divine. Conversely my Bloodwright (see my sig) would have the abilities formerly divine specified differently (as perhaps arcane?)