Any race excelling at any class - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Any race excelling at any class

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Electricbee
Apr 30, 2009 13:31:42 One of the things that I find less than fun about 4th is the race/class matching. While you can play charcters who don't get a racial bonus to the primary abilty of the race's, it is rough.

I'm considering allowing every race a +2 bonus to one ablity score (after point buy) that dosen't already get a racial bonus. Humans would get +2 to 2 ability scores of their choice. I would possibly offset this by giving the player a starting stat array (before point buy) of two 8s and 4 tens instead of the eight and 5 tens that are standard.

Other than a slight power creep due to stat inflation (making bigger scores cheaper) does this seem a reasonable way to open up more classe to more races?

Discuss
#2
jaelis
Apr 30, 2009 13:38:57 Personally, I'd say you are overestimating the importance of the racial adjustments. The difference in play between an eladrin wizard with 18 int and a dragonborn wizard with 16 int is not zero, but I wouldn't even go so far as to say it makes things "rough."

I don't think your idea is unbalanced though (by the same reasoning). It would mostly blur the distinction between races a bit, which sounds like what you are after.
#3
korgoththeprist
Apr 30, 2009 15:11:50
One of the things that I find less than fun about 4th is the race/class matching. While you can play charcters who don't get a racial bonus to the primary abilty of the race's, it is rough.

I'm considering allowing every race a +2 bonus to one ablity score (after point buy) that dosen't already get a racial bonus. Humans would get +2 to 2 ability scores of their choice. I would possibly offset this by giving the player a starting stat array (before point buy) of two 8s and 4 tens instead of the eight and 5 tens that are standard.

Other than a slight power creep due to stat inflation (making bigger scores cheaper) does this seem a reasonable way to open up more classe to more races?

Discuss

So Humans basicly get +2 to any ability score x2?

Human main ability is that We are the most quickest to learn new things that is not apart of our race.

So your kinda take away a bit from the human.

Allso having a +2 to an ability score dosnt mean you cant play that class as effectivly as you could with the other race.

So basicly what im trying to say is that its totaly not needed to do what you want to do

Not only that but it could possibly be overpowering with what your doing.

(Multibol ability scores with 18's and 16's ? Ok thanks Mr DM)

For Example a Dwarf has +2 con and Wisdom.

So 16/16/13 would be 21 points (With 1 point remaining)
The dwarf now has 18 str 18 wisdom 15 con. This can be a bit overpowering at level 1. Where monsters are design to be how they function vs characters normaly with the standerd array formate. (Or the norm point buy)

You Beleve to much that its to week and such to play a race without the bonus +2 to an ability score but allso beleve its imporant to make sure someone dosnt become to overpowerd

(Like letting the +2 bonus stack with the humans +2 bonus possibly giving him a 22 at level 1)

However your discussion isnt a bad one eather.

It helps make players in your group feel more comfortible being any race they want to be.

But it might have its draw backs. a Goliath player might want to feel more strong and buff then a little ones!

Now your Half Elf is as strong and bearly as the goliath your little 5 ft tall dwarf is as powerful strong as the damn 7ft tall goliath and they now have the same ability statistic block!

Might kinda hurt some people in there roleplaying experiance.

For Example i hate beer whisky and all that stuff in real life the only time ive touched it is at friends weddings and such.

However i love to roleplay my Tough stocky Dwarf who drinks his dwarven beer and is the tough stocky little dude.

Now players may find it differcult to roleplay there Goliath / Half Orc when my dwarf is just doing the same as they can

What i mean by this is that he can lift just as much as i can so it kills his spunk about being able to lift a giant boulder and my dwarf cant

Now my dwarf is going to be able to and the other guy is going to kinda mumble about it

At least thats what the game could be if we was playing in it and i played the dwarf.

So Keep these things in mind.
#4
CriticalBastard
Apr 30, 2009 18:38:06 Two primary issues I see with this:
1. Power inflation
[INDENT]To avoid power inflation, the solution shouldn't increase the total racial bonus of players.[/INDENT]

2. Racial power abuse. Races with "Good" racial powers (like elves, dwarves) will become optimal for almost any class and races with "Poor" racial powers will not need to be chosen because their attributes match a build.
[INDENT]To avoid abuse of racial powers and preserve "optimal" races for a build, the solution should still make that race slightly worse than a naturally "optimal" race.[/INDENT]

I think a more balanced solution would be:
You may trade a +2 racial bonus to one attribute for a +1 racial bonus to another attribute. You can only do this once. The racial bonus doesn't stack with another attribute's racial bonus.

In practice, this would redistribute "useless" racial attribute boosts because players will probably buy a 15/17 instead of 16/18 and use the extra points in different secondary attributes.
#5
rikiji
Apr 30, 2009 23:21:06 Really, racial features and powers have more weight than attributes on how optimized a character is for a class. Even then, there are relatively few race-class combinations that can't excel.
#6
Qube
May 01, 2009 2:12:39
Personally, I'd say you are overestimating the importance of the racial adjustments. The difference in play between an eladrin wizard with 18 int and a dragonborn wizard with 16 int is not zero, but I wouldn't even go so far as to say it makes things "rough."

true.
breath weapon takes care of minions at mellee range as minor action (taking care of minions is one of the jobs of the controller).
dragon breath might also benefit from elemental feats (for example 'if you use a lighting power ...')
charisma bonus gives you automatically 13 at paragon level (needed for spell focus (-2 on saves) )
a staff wizard will have even bigger healing surges (dragon heritage)
#7
rikiji
May 01, 2009 10:00:46
true.
breath weapon takes care of minions at mellee range as minor action (taking care of minions is one of the jobs of the controller).
dragon breath might also benefit from elemental feats (for example 'if you use a lighting power ...')
charisma bonus gives you automatically 13 at paragon level (needed for spell focus (-2 on saves) )
a staff wizard will have even bigger healing surges (dragon heritage)

All sound tactics and they certainly make for an effective character. It largely boils down to playing style - different classes lend themselves to different tactics when playing different roles. Everyone is going to have their comfort zone - but that's not really hinged on what attribute bonuses a race has.

One of my regular characters is an Eladrin wizard. While the +2 INT is nice, I can't really say I notice myself hitting or missing by one all that often. I'm generally well above or below the target number. My fey step ability is much more relevant in combat than the attribute bonus is.
#8
mellored
May 01, 2009 10:50:19 I agree with the above sentiments.

1) any race can already excel at any class, there are also often feats (dwarven weapon training) that boost the "bad' classes.

2) your houserule provides a minor power creep but is not excessive.

So there's not a big reason to do it, but there's not a big reason to NOT do it either.

Go with what's more fun for your group.
#9
CriticalBastard
May 01, 2009 20:27:30 I think you guys are missing the other angle here.

There are two possibilities:
1. Players take a suboptimal race for a build and you change the rules to put their character more in balance with optimal races; like a Halfling Fighter or Dwarf Wizard.
2. Players take an awesome race for a build that is missing a +2 to the right attribute and you change the rules to allow them to make characters that are more powerful than are otherwise possible; like an Elf Wizard with +2 Int (holy abuse batman!) or an Elf Warlock with +2 Cha, or a Dwarf Barbarian with +2 Strength, or a Dragonborn Rogue with +2 Dex...

Some racial traits are inherently better than others, top 3 probably being those are Elf, Dragonborn, and Dwarf. The change you propose makes any ranged build that doesn't go Elf suboptimal.

Hopefully you got a good crew and you'll see option 1, just watch out for option 2.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Electricbee Apr 30, 2009 13:31:42	One of the things that I find less than fun about 4th is the race/class matching. While you can play charcters who don't get a racial bonus to the primary abilty of the race's, it is rough. I'm considering allowing every race a +2 bonus to one ablity score (after point buy) that dosen't already get a racial bonus. Humans would get +2 to 2 ability scores of their choice. I would possibly offset this by giving the player a starting stat array (before point buy) of two 8s and 4 tens instead of the eight and 5 tens that are standard. Other than a slight power creep due to stat inflation (making bigger scores cheaper) does this seem a reasonable way to open up more classe to more races? Discuss
#2 jaelis Apr 30, 2009 13:38:57	Personally, I'd say you are overestimating the importance of the racial adjustments. The difference in play between an eladrin wizard with 18 int and a dragonborn wizard with 16 int is not zero, but I wouldn't even go so far as to say it makes things "rough." I don't think your idea is unbalanced though (by the same reasoning). It would mostly blur the distinction between races a bit, which sounds like what you are after.
#3 korgoththeprist Apr 30, 2009 15:11:50	One of the things that I find less than fun about 4th is the race/class matching. While you can play charcters who don't get a racial bonus to the primary abilty of the race's, it is rough. I'm considering allowing every race a +2 bonus to one ablity score (after point buy) that dosen't already get a racial bonus. Humans would get +2 to 2 ability scores of their choice. I would possibly offset this by giving the player a starting stat array (before point buy) of two 8s and 4 tens instead of the eight and 5 tens that are standard. Other than a slight power creep due to stat inflation (making bigger scores cheaper) does this seem a reasonable way to open up more classe to more races? Discuss So Humans basicly get +2 to any ability score x2? Human main ability is that We are the most quickest to learn new things that is not apart of our race. So your kinda take away a bit from the human. Allso having a +2 to an ability score dosnt mean you cant play that class as effectivly as you could with the other race. So basicly what im trying to say is that its totaly not needed to do what you want to do Not only that but it could possibly be overpowering with what your doing. (Multibol ability scores with 18's and 16's ? Ok thanks Mr DM) For Example a Dwarf has +2 con and Wisdom. So 16/16/13 would be 21 points (With 1 point remaining) The dwarf now has 18 str 18 wisdom 15 con. This can be a bit overpowering at level 1. Where monsters are design to be how they function vs characters normaly with the standerd array formate. (Or the norm point buy) You Beleve to much that its to week and such to play a race without the bonus +2 to an ability score but allso beleve its imporant to make sure someone dosnt become to overpowerd (Like letting the +2 bonus stack with the humans +2 bonus possibly giving him a 22 at level 1) However your discussion isnt a bad one eather. It helps make players in your group feel more comfortible being any race they want to be. But it might have its draw backs. a Goliath player might want to feel more strong and buff then a little ones! Now your Half Elf is as strong and bearly as the goliath your little 5 ft tall dwarf is as powerful strong as the damn 7ft tall goliath and they now have the same ability statistic block! Might kinda hurt some people in there roleplaying experiance. For Example i hate beer whisky and all that stuff in real life the only time ive touched it is at friends weddings and such. However i love to roleplay my Tough stocky Dwarf who drinks his dwarven beer and is the tough stocky little dude. Now players may find it differcult to roleplay there Goliath / Half Orc when my dwarf is just doing the same as they can What i mean by this is that he can lift just as much as i can so it kills his spunk about being able to lift a giant boulder and my dwarf cant Now my dwarf is going to be able to and the other guy is going to kinda mumble about it At least thats what the game could be if we was playing in it and i played the dwarf. So Keep these things in mind.
#4 CriticalBastard Apr 30, 2009 18:38:06	Two primary issues I see with this: 1. Power inflation [INDENT]To avoid power inflation, the solution shouldn't increase the total racial bonus of players.[/INDENT] 2. Racial power abuse. Races with "Good" racial powers (like elves, dwarves) will become optimal for almost any class and races with "Poor" racial powers will not need to be chosen because their attributes match a build. [INDENT]To avoid abuse of racial powers and preserve "optimal" races for a build, the solution should still make that race slightly worse than a naturally "optimal" race.[/INDENT] I think a more balanced solution would be: *You may trade a +2 racial bonus to one attribute for a +1 racial bonus to another attribute. You can only do this once. The racial bonus doesn't stack with another attribute's racial bonus.* In practice, this would redistribute "useless" racial attribute boosts because players will probably buy a 15/17 instead of 16/18 and use the extra points in different secondary attributes.
#5 rikiji Apr 30, 2009 23:21:06	Really, racial features and powers have more weight than attributes on how optimized a character is for a class. Even then, there are relatively few race-class combinations that can't excel.
#6 Qube May 01, 2009 2:12:39	Personally, I'd say you are overestimating the importance of the racial adjustments. The difference in play between an eladrin wizard with 18 int and a dragonborn wizard with 16 int is not zero, but I wouldn't even go so far as to say it makes things "rough." true. breath weapon takes care of minions at mellee range as minor action (taking care of minions is one of the jobs of the controller). dragon breath might also benefit from elemental feats (for example 'if you use a lighting power ...') charisma bonus gives you automatically 13 at paragon level (needed for spell focus (-2 on saves) ) a staff wizard will have even bigger healing surges (dragon heritage)
#7 rikiji May 01, 2009 10:00:46	true. breath weapon takes care of minions at mellee range as minor action (taking care of minions is one of the jobs of the controller). dragon breath might also benefit from elemental feats (for example 'if you use a lighting power ...') charisma bonus gives you automatically 13 at paragon level (needed for spell focus (-2 on saves) ) a staff wizard will have even bigger healing surges (dragon heritage) All sound tactics and they certainly make for an effective character. It largely boils down to playing style - different classes lend themselves to different tactics when playing different roles. Everyone is going to have their comfort zone - but that's not really hinged on what attribute bonuses a race has. One of my regular characters is an Eladrin wizard. While the +2 INT is nice, I can't really say I notice myself hitting or missing by one all that often. I'm generally well above or below the target number. My fey step ability is much more relevant in combat than the attribute bonus is.
#8 mellored May 01, 2009 10:50:19	I agree with the above sentiments. 1) any race can already excel at any class, there are also often feats (dwarven weapon training) that boost the "bad' classes. 2) your houserule provides a minor power creep but is not excessive. So there's not a big reason to do it, but there's not a big reason to NOT do it either. Go with what's more fun for your group.
#9 CriticalBastard May 01, 2009 20:27:30	I think you guys are missing the other angle here. There are two possibilities: 1. Players take a suboptimal race for a build and you change the rules to put their character more in balance with optimal races; like a Halfling Fighter or Dwarf Wizard. 2. Players take an awesome race for a build that is missing a +2 to the right attribute and you change the rules to allow them to make characters that are more powerful than are otherwise possible; like an Elf Wizard with +2 Int (holy abuse batman!) or an Elf Warlock with +2 Cha, or a Dwarf Barbarian with +2 Strength, or a Dragonborn Rogue with +2 Dex... Some racial traits are inherently better than others, top 3 probably being those are Elf, Dragonborn, and Dwarf. The change you propose makes any ranged build that doesn't go Elf suboptimal. Hopefully you got a good crew and you'll see option 1, just watch out for option 2.