Anyone re-worked skills in 4E to be more... RP friendly? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Anyone re-worked skills in 4E to be more... RP friendly?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
jrgumby
May 06, 2009 17:03:00 I must admit that I am rather fond of 4E. I like how much less book-keeping there is sometimes, it's easier for people to get into, and combat goes really really well.

The problem I'm starting to see is primarily outside combat, and the worst offender seems to be the skills system.

I'll readily admit that skills in 3.5 were kind of a pain, you had to carefully spend them every level or end up gimped by accident.

4E seems to go the other way. Both in terms of a gross reduction in the number of skills and a player's ability to customize his character. And they sort of seem to go together.

I don't really like that "handle animal", "Survival", and "Nature lore" are all one skill now. Same with bluff being forgery and disguise. I feel like I lose a lot of what 3 had for developing really unique characters with defining roles (he's not just a rogue or a liar, he's a master of disguise. Or he can't pretend to be someone else but he always happens to have a letter from the governor).

Consequently, when my players don't actually have those skills they seem to forget that these elements of the world are as easily interactable.

Now, the other problem with this is that with the fewer available skills players get almost no choice in what skills they can take.

I mean sure, the fighter can take 3 of a couple skills. But what if my fighter wants to be a great horseman? I'd say that's almost certainly Nature (since animal handling is gone). But there is no way that a character can do that from the PHB. Even if you call it "cross-class" there isn't a way for him to do this without
A)wasting a feat slot for something that used to be an independant choice.
B) choosing eladrin.

The biggest problem I have with it though is that I can't for the life of me seem to come up with a really good solution to this issue. Adding skill ranks and buys per level disorder the DCs and mechanics of skill checks and add a bunch of extra book keeping. Splitting skills means that class features need reworking almost completely.

Anyone have suggestions or links to other people that have fixed this?
#2
Stuntman
May 06, 2009 17:38:16
I mean sure, the fighter can take 3 of a couple skills. But what if my fighter wants to be a great horseman? I'd say that's almost certainly Nature (since animal handling is gone). But there is no way that a character can do that from the PHB. Even if you call it "cross-class" there isn't a way for him to do this without
A)wasting a feat slot for something that used to be an independant choice.
B) choosing eladrin.

The biggest problem I have with it though is that I can't for the life of me seem to come up with a really good solution to this issue. Adding skill ranks and buys per level disorder the DCs and mechanics of skill checks and add a bunch of extra book keeping. Splitting skills means that class features need reworking almost completely.

Anyone have suggestions or links to other people that have fixed this?

The standard way of improving your skill bonus in 4E is to use feats. If you want to be proficient in more skills, you spend a feat. If you want to be focused on the skill, you spend another feat. Feats are used in 4E to customise your character. If being a very good horseman is how you envision your character, then spend a feat to be good at it. If you were a ranger that already has Nature, then you can be really good at it by taking the Skill Focus feat to be even better at it.

If you do not think that it is worth spending a feat on Skill Training, then if you have the prereqs, take the Ranger multiclass feat. You gain the skill and you get Hunter's Quarry once per encounter until the end of your next turn.

The Skill DC system is designed with the skill feats in mind. It is balanced with the fact that you can take feats to improve your skill bonuses. The untrained, trained and focused rankings is a way to simplify the way in which you improve your skill rankings.

It seems you are very adverse to spending a feat to improve a skill. Going from untrained to trained improves your skill bonus by a whopping +5. Isn't this much of a boost worth spending a feat on?
#3
bastard_dm
May 06, 2009 19:53:08 Character backgrounds, as outlined in Scales of War, FRPG, and the PHB2, allow for exactly this sort of character customization. Want your fighter to be trained in Nature? He grew up in the forests or on a farm, and adds Nature to his list of available skills as a Fighter.

If you want to try and increase the number of skills in the game (or simply break up some of the skills to pre-4e versions), I would recommend adding 4-5 skills to the game, then granting every character one additional trained skill. This way, a well-balanced party can still cover all the necessary skills, but each individual character can focus on a more well-defined subset of trained skills.
#4
CraggleRock
May 07, 2009 8:12:36 If part of the problem for the players is the lack of having the skills listed, you could hybridise 4E's skills with the Iron Heroes' skill system. In IH, certain classes have access to certain groups of skills which they could by ranks in to raise the whole group. This avoided the need of sneaky characters having to spend two skill points in both Hide and Move Silently as spending one point in the Stealth tree raised both. If classes that didn't have access to the Stealth tree wanted to, they could still spend the two points and get the two skill individually.

So, for 4E, you could list three or four "sub-skills" under each of the existing ones. Being trained in the skill gives you training for all the sub-skills, and taking Skill Focus gives you the same bonus on all the sub-skills. If you feel inclined, perhaps allow the players to tweak the numbers upwards on some sub-skills to be balanced by a decrease in other areas, although it would probably be advisable to avoid anything more than a point or two.
#5
Electricbee
May 07, 2009 8:50:43 Use the background option that allows a player to add a skill to his class skill list and homebrew some feats that allow a bonus to skills when used for a specific purpose. (for example + 5 to bluff when used to forge a document or to +3 thievery when used to open locks and disarm traps)
#6
ascottbay
May 07, 2009 13:20:31 If you want to go "by the book," come up with backgrounds that support what you want. Maybe even word them so that they only get a half bonus if their skill isn't being used in a situation for horsemanship/forgery/whatever.

Personally, I'd trust my players not to cram too much into their character's backstory/personality, and just give them a bonus whenever I feel it's appropriate. Not everyone is comfortable with the benevolent dictator approach, though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jrgumby May 06, 2009 17:03:00	I must admit that I am rather fond of 4E. I like how much less book-keeping there is sometimes, it's easier for people to get into, and combat goes really really well. The problem I'm starting to see is primarily outside combat, and the worst offender seems to be the skills system. I'll readily admit that skills in 3.5 were kind of a pain, you had to carefully spend them every level or end up gimped by accident. 4E seems to go the other way. Both in terms of a gross reduction in the number of skills and a player's ability to customize his character. And they sort of seem to go together. I don't really like that "handle animal", "Survival", and "Nature lore" are all one skill now. Same with bluff being forgery and disguise. I feel like I lose a lot of what 3 had for developing really unique characters with defining roles (he's not just a rogue or a liar, he's a master of disguise. Or he can't pretend to be someone else but he always happens to have a letter from the governor). Consequently, when my players don't actually have those skills they seem to forget that these elements of the world are as easily interactable. Now, the other problem with this is that with the fewer available skills players get almost no choice in what skills they can take. I mean sure, the fighter can take 3 of a couple skills. But what if my fighter wants to be a great horseman? I'd say that's almost certainly Nature (since animal handling is gone). But there is no way that a character can do that from the PHB. Even if you call it "cross-class" there isn't a way for him to do this without A)wasting a feat slot for something that used to be an independant choice. B) choosing eladrin. The biggest problem I have with it though is that I can't for the life of me seem to come up with a really good solution to this issue. Adding skill ranks and buys per level disorder the DCs and mechanics of skill checks and add a bunch of extra book keeping. Splitting skills means that class features need reworking almost completely. Anyone have suggestions or links to other people that have fixed this?
#2 Stuntman May 06, 2009 17:38:16	I mean sure, the fighter can take 3 of a couple skills. But what if my fighter wants to be a great horseman? I'd say that's almost certainly Nature (since animal handling is gone). But there is no way that a character can do that from the PHB. Even if you call it "cross-class" there isn't a way for him to do this without A)wasting a feat slot for something that used to be an independant choice. B) choosing eladrin. The biggest problem I have with it though is that I can't for the life of me seem to come up with a really good solution to this issue. Adding skill ranks and buys per level disorder the DCs and mechanics of skill checks and add a bunch of extra book keeping. Splitting skills means that class features need reworking almost completely. Anyone have suggestions or links to other people that have fixed this? The standard way of improving your skill bonus in 4E is to use feats. If you want to be proficient in more skills, you spend a feat. If you want to be focused on the skill, you spend another feat. Feats are used in 4E to customise your character. If being a very good horseman is how you envision your character, then spend a feat to be good at it. If you were a ranger that already has Nature, then you can be really good at it by taking the Skill Focus feat to be even better at it. If you do not think that it is worth spending a feat on Skill Training, then if you have the prereqs, take the Ranger multiclass feat. You gain the skill and you get Hunter's Quarry once per encounter until the end of your next turn. The Skill DC system is designed with the skill feats in mind. It is balanced with the fact that you can take feats to improve your skill bonuses. The untrained, trained and focused rankings is a way to simplify the way in which you improve your skill rankings. It seems you are very adverse to spending a feat to improve a skill. Going from untrained to trained improves your skill bonus by a whopping +5. Isn't this much of a boost worth spending a feat on?
#3 bastard_dm May 06, 2009 19:53:08	Character backgrounds, as outlined in Scales of War, FRPG, and the PHB2, allow for exactly this sort of character customization. Want your fighter to be trained in Nature? He grew up in the forests or on a farm, and adds Nature to his list of available skills as a Fighter. If you want to try and increase the number of skills in the game (or simply break up some of the skills to pre-4e versions), I would recommend adding 4-5 skills to the game, then granting every character one additional trained skill. This way, a well-balanced party can still cover all the necessary skills, but each individual character can focus on a more well-defined subset of trained skills.
#4 CraggleRock May 07, 2009 8:12:36	If part of the problem for the players is the lack of having the skills listed, you could hybridise 4E's skills with the Iron Heroes' skill system. In IH, certain classes have access to certain groups of skills which they could by ranks in to raise the whole group. This avoided the need of sneaky characters having to spend two skill points in both Hide and Move Silently as spending one point in the Stealth tree raised both. If classes that didn't have access to the Stealth tree wanted to, they could still spend the two points and get the two skill individually. So, for 4E, you could list three or four "sub-skills" under each of the existing ones. Being trained in the skill gives you training for all the sub-skills, and taking Skill Focus gives you the same bonus on all the sub-skills. If you feel inclined, perhaps allow the players to tweak the numbers upwards on some sub-skills to be balanced by a decrease in other areas, although it would probably be advisable to avoid anything more than a point or two.
#5 Electricbee May 07, 2009 8:50:43	Use the background option that allows a player to add a skill to his class skill list and homebrew some feats that allow a bonus to skills when used for a specific purpose. (for example + 5 to bluff when used to forge a document or to +3 thievery when used to open locks and disarm traps)
#6 ascottbay May 07, 2009 13:20:31	If you want to go "by the book," come up with backgrounds that support what you want. Maybe even word them so that they only get a half bonus if their skill isn't being used in a situation for horsemanship/forgery/whatever. Personally, I'd trust my players not to cram too much into their character's backstory/personality, and just give them a bonus whenever I feel it's appropriate. Not everyone is comfortable with the benevolent dictator approach, though.