I mean, wouldn't the first level 5 monster to wander by just wipe out all the lvl1 farmers?
To be fair, there really isn't a core D&D 4e setting, there is just a collection of things that are not really setting specific. You are free to color your world any way you want.
From what I've heard the D&D world is a vast trackless wasteland, and town are "points of light" in the darkness. Something that I found kind of odd is that all the villages are still innocent farming towns. I would think they would need a much more Spartan lifestyle, or at least a big fence.
I mean, wouldn't the first level 5 monster to wander by just wipe out all the lvl1 farmers?
No it wouldn't, because you're there. Duh! :D
Seriously though, this is intentional for the style of heroic fantasy. The idea is to make the PCs necessary and vital to the setting as saviors.
I would think they would need a much more Spartan lifestyle, or at least a big fence.
I'd imagine even the smallest of them do have a low wall and a 2nd or 3rd level Sheriff, along with some 1st level help. And everyone can serve as a minion in a pinch. But yeah you're hoping the adventurers show up and save the day before your village becomes some other adventurer's tragic backstory.
Intelligent monsters usually don't raid these small villages because it's often more profitable to keep them around, take what the monsters want as they need it. Crazy intelligent monsters are the rare exception, as they may decide to wipe a village out just because.
At least, that's my understanding of it all. These villages tend to have meager defenses, but manage to get by. It's only when they try to expand or accidentally stick their noses into places they shouldn't be (cutting down trees under fey protection, mining in kobold territory, etc) that they call down the thunder, so to speak.
When I think of the 4e assumed world, I envision the feudal lands seen in Inu-Yasha. Little farming villages surrounded by dense wood, teeming with magical and often unsavory lifeforms that could totally annihilate the humans if they really tried.
Hard to do epic fantasy when a multiplanar "metropolis" like Sigil has a smaller population than my home town.
Lately the humaniod incursions have been getting worse. About a year prior to the campaign starting an orc army party come into the area and was defeated by the combined militias of all the local towns and the towns are still recovering from it.
Now with the latest reports of goblins and wolves (I replaced the kobold with goblins and wolves) making themselves at home in the area (instead of raiding and moving on) the twons are getting very nervous and have hired my son's character to help rid the area of these vermin.
Hard to do epic fantasy when a multiplanar "metropolis" like Sigil has a smaller population than my home town.
Manual of the Planes, page 25:
"Population: Approximately 250,000. Representatives of nearly every race and monstrous kind can be found somewhere in the city."
Dude...you have one seriously large home town. My own only has about 80,000 permanent residents (not counting the snowbirds that are only here for the winter...I live on the beach in Florida).
Dude...you have one seriously large home town. My own only has about 80,000 permanent residents (not counting the snowbirds that are only here for the winter...I live on the beach in Florida).
[Haughtiness]-If you think 250,000 residents is a lot, that's...well, it's not.[/Haughtiness]
[Haughtiness]-If you think 250,000 residents is a lot, that's...well, it's not.[/Haughtiness]
It's not, if you compare it to a large city such as current-day NYC or LA. Of course, towns in real-world medieval times were NOT that large, as there would be little way to support such an immense population. That's the reasons there were large baronies that stretched over hundreds of miles to allow for farmlands and such. The residents could spread out so as to tend their own animals and crops. The security of a walled city came at a heavy cost for the residents, as others had to supply their food and supplies. The typical taxation for those residents was quite high when compared to open-land residents who could tend to themselves without relying on the city's government for living essentials.
By the way, Sigil was not the best example to use for this analogy. Sigil has literally multi-thousands of temporary residents who are simply passing through on their way elsewhere. The vast majority of PoL towns are small...almost village-like. Even when compared to Forgotten Realm cities like Baldur's Gate or Waterdeep, most modern large (real-world) cities surpass them hundreds of times over.
Dude...you have one seriously large home town. My own only has about 80,000 permanent residents (not counting the snowbirds that are only here for the winter...I live on the beach in Florida).
Mine's got ~30k. Maybe 35k.
Then again, I am only 30 minutes from the greatest City in the World, (if you can stand the politicians): Chicago!
From wikipedia:
Largest cities throughout history
There are a number of cities in the ancient world that tops 500,000 or even 1,000,000 but they tend to be major or capital cities in a relatively stable and prosperous empire.
Also:
Historical Urban Community Size
So a relatively small town like Fellcrest, the center of Nentir Vale, having a population of 1350 isn't that far off the mark.
It really depends on what time you would place your campaign world relative to our own. In my campaign the time line is completely separate and and earth exists as it does today (though my campaign is set on an Astral Dominion.. so it really doesn't matter what the date of earth is.)
I would say an average population for a large city (DMG p153,) of 20'000 is probably spot on for a late-medieval timeline. A city of 20'000 would be one of the largest in the 12th century.
And you cant compare the size of cities in D&D to the size of a modern city or even a modern town. Just with going by real history our population is 100 times the size it was in the 12th century. I mean just form the 18th century to today the population has increased more then 6 fold, from under 1 billion worldwide in 1750 to over 6 billion, with some estimates putting it at 6.4 or so, today. So figure in the middle ages there were likely less then 200 million people world wide. So naturally cities would have been MUCH smaller.
In the end if your a DM and you think cities are to small, increase their size. Remember Rule Zero (see today's Confessions of a Full Time Wizard as an example hehe. Love those articles.) And your time line might be dramatically different, your populations dramatically different because your campaign is likely set in a wholly fantastic world.
So if you think the DMG pages on population sizes is to small, by all means increase it!
Of course, towns in real-world medieval times were NOT that large, as there would be little way to support such an immense population.
-Of course, Sigil is not a real-world medieval city. We are/were discussing hometowns, however.
-Of course, Sigil is not a real-world medieval city.
It's not? Oh no...you mean I've been lied to all these years? There's no great donut-city in space? I'll get those lying bast---s...just you wait and see...no one makes a fool out of me more than six or seven times without paying for it...
We are/were discussing hometowns, however.
We are? Oh my god...where am I? For that matter, who am I?:D :P
It's not? Oh no...you mean I've been lied to all these years? There's no great donut-city in space? I'll get those lying bast---s...just you wait and see...no one makes a fool out of me more than six or seven times without paying for it...
-Have you ever wanted to own your own bridge?
-Have you ever wanted to own your own bridge?
Know a few good ones for sale? I'm kinda strapped for cash right now, though...we might have to barter a bit for it.
the greatest City in the World, (if you can stand the politicians): Chicago!
But they're part of what makes it so great....
The real dangerous ones are the roving bands of orc intent on destruction alone!
Know a few good ones for sale? I'm kinda strapped for cash right now, though...we might have to barter a bit for it.
The rail company was willing to sell the Quebec Bridge to the government for a symbolic dollar. They might still be interested :p
Needs some hefty maintnance though.
And my hometown has around 500 000 people in it. We are a provincial capital though and pretty stretched out.
Manual of the Planes, page 25:
"Population: Approximately 250,000. Representatives of nearly every race and monstrous kind can be found somewhere in the city."
Dude...you have one seriously large home town. My own only has about 80,000 permanent residents (not counting the snowbirds that are only here for the winter...I live on the beach in Florida).
Not really. Mine is a bit north of 600,000 and really isn't all that big by modern standards. It's not really fair to compare it to a medieval city though. For one, it is FAR more spread out at around 460 square miles. That wouldn't be practical in a more medieval type setting considering it would take you a day or two just to get across town. We also have sewers and proper sanitation. A city of 600,000 in medieval times, aside from being one of the largest in the world, would likely be a filthy, nasty place. Sanitation wasn't usually real high on their agendas back then.
I mean, wouldn't the first level 5 monster to wander by just wipe out all the lvl1 farmers?
Yes, you're right. Points of light makes no sense. Movies (and not many actually use this really) can get away with it because the movie is 90 minutes long and the camera goes where the director tells it to. For a game where the characters run around, buy magic items from shops, have some freedom to explore and spend more than 90 minutes in the world it makes as much sense as an 8 inch bat dropping a 4 foot long magical long sword when it dies. 4E isn't about making sense. Points of light is about being able to walk 5 minutes out of town and get into the next combat to put those powers, feats and magic items, which take up 90% of the book's contents, to some use.
I live in a city of 8 million. However, any modern major city has one thing D&D lacks - lots and lots of really high skyscrapers. No apartments in D&D. :P
Doesn't Eberron have stuff like that?
As for Sigil I agree that 250 000 is a little low. I would at least put a million.
As for the villages in the PoL world, most village would probably have at least a wooden wall. And don't forget that even if D&D lists NPC as being weaker then monster, from a pure story wise point, you could consider that a kobold, goblin and even orc is the equivalent at fighting than an NPC. For them, raiding a village would probably be a success, but the lost could be heavy. They have to balance out the cost and consequence of raiding a village. If too much warrior die, the survival of their tribe could be in danger.
What can happen, and can be a great plot hook for a PoL game, is that the balance is broken. Somehow the monster get some help, or the human lost too much people because of an accident. And then the poor village get obverwhelmed or must move to the closer wall city. If only some adventurer could help save them?
Think of it as a dynamic balance. For one or two generation the human live here, some **** happen and they must change their way or die. Same for the tribe, perhaps they were few, but suddendly an orc tribe is driving away the kobolds and kobolds migrate in mass in the human lands.
I personally say 250k is fine for Sigil. Thats simply permanent residents. However every day the number of folks in Sigil is probably at least double that as people come and go constantly.
Precisely. Think about a place like New Orleans, Orlando, or any other attraction-type place. How many permanent residents are there as opposed to how many people visit there on a daily basis?
Guys the populations are a bit light, but not by much. 12th century London was one of the biggest cities in Europe at 20'000 citizens. It had half that in the 10th century, or around 10'000 citizens. Around that same time line the truly massive cities (top one or two) had around a million people, but the vast majority had far fewer.
As a side note, during the 1st century AD, the Roman Army had about 400,000 troops.
But they're part of what makes it so great....
No, they're why we have the HIGHEST sales tax in the US.
Points of light makes no sense.
If what you described is the world your DM forces you to play in, I can see why you have become so jaded. If that is the world you make your players play in, they have my condolences. If that is the world you think 4e is played in, you have my pity.
most small rural towns would probably be like the one i lived in, an amalgamation of small communities & families focused around a single hub. we have various parishes but the hub of the village is Wellington, which has the grocery store (the equivalent of a D&D marketplace) and the government offices (the equivalent of the mayor, sheriff & what little millitary).
these small communities are often spread over a LARGE quantity of land, mostly due to the space required for farming & animals, and the center of it would probably be the church & school house where the farmers could meet for local business issues.
people seem to think that a Village is nothing but a bunch of tatched roof cottages huddled together, but truth be told only the really big cities would be like that. small villages are most often a gathering of communities. the "Hub" might be walled in, but to gather all the small villages AND properly guard that expanse of land? no, they are out of luck.
If what you described is the world your DM forces you to play in, I can see why you have become so jaded. If that is the world you make your players play in, they have my condolences. If that is the world you think 4e is played in, you have my pity.
This is almost poetry.
As a side note, during the 1st century AD, the Roman Army had about 400,000 troops.
They were also at the height of their imperial power with soldiers drawn from their entire empire.
I think a clear distinction should be made between cities that are more city states/PoL and cities that are clearly a part of some larger country/empire. Once pass a certain size, cities can no longer subsist on just the local food/resource and requires constant import from other areas. It's really not much of an exaggeration to say that large cities requires large countries for support.
Most medieval villages that did not have religious, political, or otherwise practical significance were unnamed. After the population rose over ~10,000, it could be significant enough to be named, otherwise it would be referenced as the equivalent of pit stop, or as the local baron / duke / lord who presided over it.
There were tons of unnamed villages of a few thousand people, some evolved and some didn't. They certainly wouldn't be the place you'd go to search for money, goods, jobs, academies, or a good place to stay. Anything smaller than 6,000 people wouldn't likely have the need to trade weapons or goods or support a labor camp, and thus have little practical use in an adventure fantasy setting.
Best way to play it is multiply the DMG settings by some number, and then sprinkle in a few "pit stop villages" populated by people who don't care what you call them or banner flies over some castle somewhere. If you wanted to stay true to Feudal Europe, these unnamed villages would vastly outnumber cities, would be grievously isolated, would likely not be found on a large-scale map, and would have little care for who wanders by as long as they don't get bothered.
Doesn't Eberron have stuff like that?
The city of Sharn does. It's in a "manifest zone" to the plane of air, which means among other things that it's practical to build very high - and in fact there's a district which actually flies, which has high property values.
They were also at the height of their imperial power with soldiers drawn from their entire empire.
I think a clear distinction should be made between cities that are more city states/PoL and cities that are clearly a part of some larger country/empire. Once pass a certain size, cities can no longer subsist on just the local food/resource and requires constant import from other areas. It's really not much of an exaggeration to say that large cities requires large countries for support.
Also, the Roman Army doesn't include the Imperial Navy, the Praetorians, and the Urban cohorts from Rome, which probably take the total close to 500,000 in a total imperial population of 20,000,000.
All the largest cities in the Roman empire, and most of China's before the 19th century, are places that had been the capital of one state or another. Administrative centres attract people from outside, and usually become the largest city in a state unless there's an older capital which retains that. Though Venice was probably Europe's largest city in the 14th Century, without exactly being an imperial capital in comparison to some others.
Also, the Roman Army doesn't include the Imperial Navy, the Praetorians, and the Urban cohorts from Rome, which probably take the total close to 500,000 in a total imperial population of 20,000,000.
All the largest cities in the Roman empire, and most of China's before the 19th century, are places that had been the capital of one state or another. Administrative centres attract people from outside, and usually become the largest city in a state unless there's an older capital which retains that.
And well Rome itself had a population of 1 000 000 and the empire was at the apex of it's power. There was virtually no ennemy that could pose a serious threat to the empire.
Though Venice was probably Europe's largest city in the 14th Century, without exactly being an imperial capital in comparison to some others.
Venice was the capital of the greatest trade network from the time. I think this could qualify as a capital.
[Haughtiness]-If you think 250,000 residents is a lot, that's...well, it's not.[/Haughtiness]
NYC cheats by stapling five towns together.
[Haughtiness]-If you think 250,000 residents is a lot, that's...well, it's not.[/Haughtiness]
NYC cheats by stapling five towns together.
You'll also notice that all such points of light presented so far seem to have geographical features that make this task much easier than they would otherwise be. It seems civilization almost always exists in "[Insert Name of River Here] Vale."
In real life, most modern towns and cities that aren't in previously uninhabited areas form on points of geographical interest. You'll notice a trend that rivers are often right in the middle of many big cities, and it's for a good reason - before industry (or magitech), rivers are both wellsprings and transportation boons. Coasts, mountainsides, trade routes, and natural resources are the other big traits that will lock down a population. When the population is low, densities will tend to be sparse as there's no reason to let others crowd you in, unless a resource is so valuable you are forced to compromise lest you lose all access. Thus, the highest-quality resources will either demonstrate the atypically great clumping we're more used to seeing, or someone with sufficient wealth or power will claim it for himself. Some stuff to keep in mind. ^_^
And well Rome itself had a population of 1 000 000 and the empire was at the apex of it's power. There was virtually no ennemy that could pose a serious threat to the empire.
Yet you could do a very good PoL setting based on the Roman Empire, just set it in one of the border provinces, or client states.
Precisely. Think about a place like New Orleans, Orlando, or any other attraction-type place. How many permanent residents are there as opposed to how many people visit there on a daily basis?
Going back to my home town its possible during the course of the summer to see the number of people in the city double, if not triple. I wouldn't be surprised if that happened to Sigil a LOT.
Yet you could do a very good PoL setting based on the Roman Empire, just set it in one of the border provinces, or client states.
Of course, but we don't talk about a PoL setting but rather a PoL zone. To truly have a PoL setting the best comparison should be in my opinion early middle age in the dark age. A world center around the lord castle and from which the hierarchy start.
Of course, but we don't talk about a PoL setting but rather a PoL zone. To truly have a PoL setting the best comparison should be in my opinion early middle age in the dark age. A world center around the lord castle and from which the hierarchy start.
Early Russia, where the cities are hundreds of miles apart and often war with each other; where you can travel for days without seeing another human or coming across a village; where there are wolf packs in the forests, pecheneg raiders riding across the steppe, lawless bandits in the marsh, witches in a hut with chicken legs waiting for lost princes.
Late bronze-age/early iron-age Middle East; where all the great empires are destroyed or at least weakened; where cities rise or fall in power depending on the strength of their ruler; where nomadic bands of raiders come out of the desert without warning; where seaborne raiders destroy great cities; where men made of stone live in the hills, intelligent crocodiles in the river, and ghosts haunt the desert; and where a dynasty is secure as long as it succeeds.
Three Kingdoms China; where states war and plot against one another; where families rise or fall according to their ambition or the whim of their overlord; where bandits haunt the marshes, pirates raid the coasts, nomads strike isolated villages and towns; where wicked sorcerors summon horse demons to terrify their enemies.
All you really need is an area which isn't too densely populated (any pre-industrial society probably qualifies), where central authority is weak or non-existent, where some groups oppose the status quoo, and where there's enough resources for conflict. America's West in the 19th Century could probably qualify as Points of Light.
This is how I like to think about it: The last great civilization, whatever it may have been, has recently (within the last century or two) collapsed and no institution was left to rule in its place. Humans, elves, dwarfs, and the other "good" creatures are in decline while orcs, goblins, dragons, and other monsters are rising in power.
Cities, towns, and villages are still around but they are decreasing in population or disappearing entirely due to famine, disease, bandits, and monsters. A town of 1500 may be small; 20 years ago it was a town of 3000; and 50 years before that it was one a network of trading villages that formed an imperial providence. Now most of the villages are abandoned or destroyed and the tiny towns that remain are remnants. You are right many are relativly defenseless - remember you are dealing with the towns that adventures have come to and are solving their problems. I like to occasionally throw in a town (or former town) that hasn't had the luxury.
Their are still populations of humans (and other player races) around - many are scattered in small villages, others have taken over banditry, gathered in small defensible homesteads or bands, or become slaves to hobgoblins, dragons, giants, or other monsters. Finally there are some major cities left, but these have problems of their own and are so concerned with survival without the imperial infrastructure that they don't have the resources to go out and "save the world"
I'll admit this system isn't sustainable; to me Points of Light seems to be about deterioration of civilization. If it continues the world as we know it will end. However, no one said this deterioration has to last forever. Sooner or later some hero (or maybe a party of heroes - hint hint) will come along and be the catalyst that pulls the world out of darkness and brings about the next great civilization. As DM you don't need to make a point of light setting that will stay in the "dark ages" forever; the world just needs to stay bad long enough for your player characters to save it.
NYC cheats by stapling five towns together.
They must hide those staples very well. :P
I'll admit this system isn't sustainable; to me Points of Light seems to be about deterioration of civilization. If it continues the world as we know it will end. However, no one said this deterioration has to last forever. Sooner or later some hero (or maybe a party of heroes - hint hint) will come along and be the catalyst that pulls the world out of darkness and brings about the next great civilization. As DM you don't need to make a point of light setting that will stay in the "dark ages" forever; the world just needs to stay bad long enough for your player characters to save it.
Dynamic balance!
The system is in perpetual change. But it can survive quite a long time in itself if nothing change too much. Sure a village here and there will be wipe out by a party of orcs. But others place that prosper well will send settler here.
I agree with you still on the fact that eventually humanity (and the good races) will rebuild something and go forward. Feodalism is really quite a start to try to put order into this chaos and can become a really complex system with time.
They must hide those staples very well. :P
They're hidden in the subways. That's why you can't see them.
They must hide those staples very well. :P
Not really. Each of New York's five boroughs is in a different county. Talk to anyone in New York sometime about where they grew up, and they'll probably name the borough, not the city itself. That's because the boroughs are basically cities unto themselves, divided in many ways including cultural and linguistic differences (the "Brooklyn accent", for example).
Another point to consider is that on Earth, all of the cities are made up of humans. Many of the races, especially those with incredibly great lifespans, are going to reproduce at a much lower rate. In this strange world where humans fall very heavily on the r side of r/K if we assume some great proprotion of the population is non-human, we can expect that the overall proliferation of, what's the catchall for good humanoids? People? Well, the overall proliferation of "people" will be greatly reduced in comparison.
I think a more important point to consider is that human population has exploded in recent years. In the past 108 years alone, our population has quadrupled. There are more than 21 times the number of humans on earth as there was back in 1000 AD (based on population data from this Wikipedia article). Modern city population densities are the result of urbanization, and would have been an extreme rarity before the Industrial Revolution.
I think a more important point to consider is that human population has exploded in recent years. In the past 108 years alone, our population has quadrupled. There are more than 21 times the number of humans on earth as there was back in 1000 AD (based on population data from this Wikipedia article). Modern city population densities are the result of urbanization, and would have been an extreme rarity before the Industrial Revolution.
Yeah, but that point had already been considered, which is why I said "another point". :D
Manual of the Planes, page 25:
"Population: Approximately 250,000. Representatives of nearly every race and monstrous kind can be found somewhere in the city."
Dude...you have one seriously large home town. My own only has about 80,000 permanent residents (not counting the snowbirds that are only here for the winter...I live on the beach in Florida).
Even 80k is too much for me. My current hometown, which is seriously about 5 times bigger than my previous one, is just under 6k residents:
Waynesboro is a city in Burke County, Georgia, United States. The population was 5,813 at the 2000 census. The city is the county seat of Burke County[3]. It is part of the Augusta, Georgia metropolitan area.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waynesboro,_Georgia
My previous hometown, Matthews, is so small I can't even find census information on it. It's so small it still has community status under the census code, which I believe puts it below 1000 residents.
IRT Topic:
The towns don't seem that odd to me. Does this really bother you that much?
NYC cheats by stapling five towns together.
-Five cities.
-Before the early 1900s, when everything was consolidated, each boro was it's own city. At the time of it's consolidation, Manhattan had a population of 1 million+ and Brooklyn had a population of 1 million+; both were in the Top 10 Most Populated Cities in the United States list. Queens, the Bronx, and Staten Island, had smaller populations.
-Currently, the smallest boro, Staten Island, has a population of 477,377, which puts it on par with some of America's "largest" smaller cities- St. Louis has 350,759, Cincinatti has 332,458 residents, New Orleans has 288,000 residents, and so on.
The DMG-standard populations are absurdly small all across the board. Europe at the peak of the Black Plague wasn't as sparsely populated as the 4E setting, and yet the world is crawling with monsters and hordes of "uncivilized" bad guy races. Suspending disbelief is nigh-impossible without taking every population limit and multiplying it by a factor of ten.
Early 12th century London had a population of nearly 20k, at the height of the roman occupation it was still under 50k. This is in line for what the DMG lists for cities, "cities with more than 25k people are extremely rare in the current age, but they stand as monuments of civilization and vital points of light in the D&D world."
They don't put any upper limit on it, take Rome; in the first Century AD the population of the Roman Empire was roughly 1/7th of the population of the entire world and the capital population was roughly 7 million. It's your world, you make whatever exceptions you want.
I'd imagine even the smallest of them do have a low wall and a 2nd or 3rd level Sheriff, along with some 1st level help. And everyone can serve as a minion in a pinch. But yeah you're hoping the adventurers show up and save the day before your village becomes some other adventurer's tragic backstory.
I love 4e, and I love that it leaves so much of the fluff up to me.
And it's a good thing it does, because I hate a world that is illogically set up so that the players are more important wherever they go. I'd much rather have it be an exception for a given town when they ask for the player's help with a problem, because that makes more sense within the confines of how the rest of the world is set up, and to me even fantasy, even DnD needs that for good storytelling.
Unintelligent Heroic-tier monsters don't raid these small villages because they just see a lot of people living there. They may just be peasants, but still a perceived threat. Paragon & Epic tier monsters, on the other hand...they eat such villages for breakfast. Thankfully, these creatures aren't exactly common.
Intelligent monsters usually don't raid these small villages because it's often more profitable to keep them around, take what the monsters want as they need it. Crazy intelligent monsters are the rare exception, as they may decide to wipe a village out just because.
At least, that's my understanding of it all. These villages tend to have meager defenses, but manage to get by. It's only when they try to expand or accidentally stick their noses into places they shouldn't be (cutting down trees under fey protection, mining in kobold territory, etc) that they call down the thunder, so to speak.
When I think of the 4e assumed world, I envision the feudal lands seen in Inu-Yasha. Little farming villages surrounded by dense wood, teeming with magical and often unsavory lifeforms that could totally annihilate the humans if they really tried.
Good point. It makes a little more sense than I thought, although it still doesn't feel like a real "world" to me, without alteration. (I don't mean real as in comparable to the real world I just mean genuine.)
Manual of the Planes, page 25:
"Population: Approximately 250,000. Representatives of nearly every race and monstrous kind can be found somewhere in the city."
Dude...you have one seriously large home town. My own only has about 80,000 permanent residents (not counting the snowbirds that are only here for the winter...I live on the beach in Florida).
As of 2008, the population of my home city was estimated at 328,692 within the city limits, making it the 11th largest city in California. It's not even really considered a major city. Until reading the population of Sigil I imagined it to be closer to New York or London. Especially after seeing the layout of the city.
Curious, anyone know the population of London circa somewhere around the, say 1600's? I figure people in a city like Sigil won't be dying of old age at nearly the rate or London at that time so the populations certainly shouldn't be any smaller.(lot's of races and beings live much, much longer than humans, and there's all manner of magic and such to make up for modern medicine.). In fact, I figure humans should be living about as long, or at least close to as long, as we do in the common era.
Speaking of which, that's another thing I wonder about, although few of these things mess up my suspension of disbelief much. Lifespans. I read in one of the books that the common man's life is hard and short. This seems absurd to me. Hard, sure, but healing potions are only like 50 gold. I know that's a lot of money for the commoner, but if they are that much, it's hard to imagine that there aren't salves, ointments, etc that help the body heal itself better over time, as well as anti-infection agents, etc that would counteract most of the reasons that so many people died "early" in our history. Also, wouldn't more births not result in a dead mom in a DnD world? Which would by itself increase the population, right?
What about the Clerics? Any town with a cleric is gonna pretty much be like a town with a private practice doctor with a bit of emergency room thrown in(roughly), right? Would there not be at least a Wise Woman type in small towns who knows the herbs? And in DnD wouldn't that knowledge of herbs be more effective in healing than in the real world?
Just doesn't make sense to me.
Guys the populations are a bit light, but not by much. 12th century London was one of the
I missed that somehow.
Anyway, in that post you talk about the Middle Ages. Is that what most DnD players think the DnD world is most analogous to? Is it supposed to be? I'm not questioning you so much as...I'm suprised.
It didn't really occur to me that DnD was like Middle Ages Earth, for the reasons in my above post, and many others. I thought of it more as socially a mix of many eras with the most culturally advanced areas being at least somewhere around the time of the Industrial Revolution in terms of cultural, philosophical and ethical advancement, but probably much closer to modern day, technologically just short of gunpowder in europe, and health-wise damn near modern with magic replacing science, and in some cases surpassing us.
EDIT: oh! Sewage, sanitation, and space(no apartments) has been brought up too.
Pfft. Waterdeep. Magical water cleaning. Dwarves dig tunnels and other underground structures impossibly well. Plenty of fantasy cities are damn close to having sky scrapers with some of their towers(although they usually don't involve housing) and there's no reason to believe DnD cities don't have apartments. Certainly wouldn't be the first fantasy setting of similar flavor to have them, and IIRC both Baldur's Gate and Waterdeep do have them.
Again, I think that with magic/divine/fantasy herblore medicine, magical transportation, ritual magic that makes crops grow like weeds, and a host of other considerations, cities and towns in this fantasy world would logically be much, much larger than any kind of medieval analogy, or even renaissance analogy. I'd say somewhere between Indust. Rev. and, say, early 20th century, depending on region and what races inhabit the city.
I personally say 250k is fine for Sigil. Thats simply permanent residents. However every day the number of folks in Sigil is probably at least double that as people come and go constantly.
kinda like vegas? massive transient population, permanent pop less than my home town IIRC.
As to much of the other stuff, just go with what feels right to you. Magic changes almost literally everything, since it's damn hard to try to imagine what our world would be like with the equivelent of decent to awesome technology since the beginning of recorded history. People have been able to do all the things I've mentioned with magic and far more for about as long as the humanoid races have been around. Does anyone here think our world would be recognizable if that were true of Earth? or if earth featured, and had always featured, all the races and creatures from DnD? Or the gods as they exist in DnD, all interacting tangibly with mortals?
No fricken way, so just go with what makes your brain happy. For me, right now that's a move away from the PoL philosophy, and making far fewer of the monster races senseless savages, the cities larger, life easier(not as easy as modern earth, but not serfdom) for the common man, amongst other changes.
That takes a lot of work and writing to set up, especially when you add in quasi industrial revolution, ish. (I stole FR's whole cataclysm thing, and then took it in a different direction and made a kingdom reject magic, and over the course of 100 years started getting technological. They has a railroad, telegrams(telegraphs?) and such as their highest tech right now.
I don't recommend this for the average campaign, but it is rewarding if you're willing to put that amount of effort into a game world.
A handful of months ago, it was world just recently (one generation) devastated by a Great War that destroyed both cultures waging it, and almost sundered the world. The world is in tatters not because the resources aren't there to fix it, but because they just haven't had time yet. There are a few places where peace can be found, and two small countries that are holding on to order and protecting their people, but large areas of the world are in darkness. I love this world, and almost made the current campaign set a generation after this one, but decided against it. It was a sequel to a 3.5 campaign wherein the Great War was played out, and the campaign started with the world looking much like 3.5 FR.
Like I said, do what's fun. All of them work in any edition.
Good point. It makes a little more sense than I thought, although it still doesn't feel like a real "world" to me, without alteration. (I don't mean real as in comparable to the real world I just mean genuine.)
Problem is that we don't have a genuine world to use as a comparative. The only thing we can do is speculate, and that will always leave a bad taste in someone's mouth... no matter how "real" you try to make it.
As of 2008, the population of my home city was estimated at 328,692 within the city limits, making it the 11th largest city in California. It's not even really considered a major city. Until reading the population of Sigil I imagined it to be closer to New York or London. Especially after seeing the layout of the city.
Curious, anyone know the population of London circa somewhere around the, say 1600's? I figure people in a city like Sigil won't be dying of old age at nearly the rate or London at that time so the populations certainly shouldn't be any smaller.(lot's of races and beings live much, much longer than humans, and there's all manner of magic and such to make up for modern medicine.). In fact, I figure humans should be living about as long, or at least close to as long, as we do in the common era.
Speaking of which, that's another thing I wonder about, although few of these things mess up my suspension of disbelief much. Lifespans. I read in one of the books that the common man's life is hard and short. This seems absurd to me. Hard, sure, but healing potions are only like 50 gold. I know that's a lot of money for the commoner, but if they are that much, it's hard to imagine that there aren't salves, ointments, etc that help the body heal itself better over time, as well as anti-infection agents, etc that would counteract most of the reasons that so many people died "early" in our history. Also, wouldn't more births not result in a dead mom in a DnD world? Which would by itself increase the population, right?
What about the Clerics? Any town with a cleric is gonna pretty much be like a town with a private practice doctor with a bit of emergency room thrown in(roughly), right? Would there not be at least a Wise Woman type in small towns who knows the herbs? And in DnD wouldn't that knowledge of herbs be more effective in healing than in the real world?
Just doesn't make sense to me.
Because Sigil doesn't exist in an industrialized world, and therefore is not in a world that was subjected to urbanization. This puts the population density of most cities significantly lower than they would be otherwise. New York City was smaller than your hometown all the way to the 1850 census. It's population didn't even exceed it until they became an immigration center in 1854. Do note: prior to 1854, New York City was already at one point the capital of our country (up until 1790), and a center of commerce and business.
I simply think your numbers are eschewed by the fact that we have more information on modern population than we do on ancient ones... and D&D is definitely not based on modern populations (there isn't really such a thing as a hamlet anymore).
The DMG-standard populations are absurdly small all across the board. Europe at the peak of the Black Plague wasn't as sparsely populated as the 4E setting, and yet the world is crawling with monsters and hordes of "uncivilized" bad guy races. Suspending disbelief is nigh-impossible without taking every population limit and multiplying it by a factor of ten.
Hard to do epic fantasy when a multiplanar "metropolis" like Sigil has a smaller population than my home town.
Part of the reason there are so few humans, elves, dwarves, and the rest of the civilized races, is that there are so MANY hobgoblins, kobolds, orcs, dragons, undead, and other barbaric races. Europe at the hight of the Black Death only had to support a population of humans. Imagine England in the 800's. The Viking raids were going strong, the Romans had been gone for centuries, but the king hadn't centralized authority, so there was no organized resistance. Whole villages were depopulated. Locals who fought off Vikings did become heroes. That's points of light.
At that time in Europe, there was only one city. Constantinople. It wasn't especially large by our standards, constrained by it's high stone walls, but it was a metropolis as far as Europe was concerned.
1) The DM only has enough time and patience to write one or two of each kind of character/shopkeeper. One or two wise old men, one or two armourers, one or two weaponsmiths, ect. There are only so many archetypes and the DM is content with to leave it at that.
2) The DM can't possibly remember all the relevant details of an entire large town.
3) Big towns have the "nobody gives a squat" and "don't trust anyone" feel to it that makes for poor RP.
1. Are walled.
2. Have a good number of guards (level 3 soldier) defending them, as well as a couple of magi (level 4 artillery) and/or berserkers (level 4 brute).
3. Have lots, and lots, and lots of rabble and followers (level 2 and 9 minions, respectively).
The typical PoL human village is a tougher dungeon than a typical goblin one.
Problem is that we don't have a genuine world to use as a comparative. The only thing we can do is speculate, and that will always leave a bad taste in someone's mouth... no matter how "real" you try to make it.
Because Sigil doesn't exist in an industrialized world, and therefore is not in a world that was subjected to urbanization. This puts the population density of most cities significantly lower than they would be otherwise. New York City was smaller than your hometown all the way to the 1850 census. It's population didn't even exceed it until they became an immigration center in 1854. Do note: prior to 1854, New York City was already at one point the capital of our country (up until 1790), and a center of commerce and business.
I simply think your numbers are eschewed by the fact that we have more information on modern population than we do on ancient ones... and D&D is definitely not based on modern populations (there isn't really such a thing as a hamlet anymore).
Sigil may not be industrialized, but judging from the manual of the planes description it operates much the same as an industrialized city. I think that DnD cities would have a far greater population than pre-industrial earth cities.