Are those feat ideas resonable? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Are those feat ideas resonable?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Sabelkatten
Oct 11, 2010 15:43:10 Two ideas I'm thinking about trying to sell to a GM:

1) Hybrid talent feat: How unbalanced would it be to allow a character to take this several times? Limited of course so that you can't get more class features than normal for either of your classes, but so that f.ex. a Rogue/Ranger could get both Beast Master and Rogue Weapon Training (but not f.ex. Beast Master and Two-Blade Style).

2) New feat: Extensive Training: You can pick one extra At-Will attack. If applicable, it does not grant you any extra power points.

I new there are feats that allow a character to swap At-Wills during a long rest, but honestly, do anyone ever use that feat? One extra At-Will doesn't seem like it will bring much extra power, but the increased versitality should be worth paying a feat for, especially for Controller classes and Hybrids.
#2
mplindustries
Oct 11, 2010 16:12:50 Your Hybrid idea is pretty dangerous. Right off the top of my head, I can foresee issues with Shadow Walk (Warlock) comboing with Cunning Sneak (Rogue). Surely there's more dangerous combos if you actually tried to find them...?

The Extensive Training Feat is a huge bump in power, honestly. More at-wills means that you can have more situations covered. No more agonizing over your limited choices--you can just grab more. I couldn't see anyone but a Twin-Strike spammer not taking that feat, and when a feat is so universally good, I don't think it's a good feat.
#3
Sabelkatten
Oct 11, 2010 17:45:43
Your Hybrid idea is pretty dangerous. Right off the top of my head, I can foresee issues with Shadow Walk (Warlock) comboing with Cunning Sneak (Rogue). Surely there's more dangerous combos if you actually tried to find them...?

The Extensive Training Feat is a huge bump in power, honestly. More at-wills means that you can have more situations covered. No more agonizing over your limited choices--you can just grab more. I couldn't see anyone but a Twin-Strike spammer not taking that feat, and when a feat is so universally good, I don't think it's a good feat.

I see your point with the first example. I hadn't thought that far - the case I was looking at was a Ranger/Shaman taking Beast Master and the Spirit interrupt power.

In the second - is it that good? Out of the dozen or so characters I've played myself or my friends have played I can only think of one that's really needed another at-will, and maybe 3 more that could have used it. Most characters seem to get along fairly well with just two at-wills... After all, you're still giving up a feat to get the extra power, so it has to be worth as much as another feat would give you.
#4
Mehangel
Oct 11, 2010 19:56:42 I agree that the Hybrid idea can easily get off hand.

As for the extensive Training feat, I don't think that it would change all that much. Then again it might, I mean if you are a human druid and you get this feat at 1st level, you got 5 at-will powers to choose from. Which honestly can practically have all sides covered in control (slide, push, pull, shift, ?) However, what if Extensive Training allowed you to choose an at-will power of your class and gain that at-will power as an encounter power? I mean sure, the bard would have little or no use for this feat, but it would not be anywhere as powerful.
#5
Sabelkatten
Oct 12, 2010 3:28:17
I agree that the Hybrid idea can easily get off hand.

As for the extensive Training feat, I don't think that it would change all that much. Then again it might, I mean if you are a human druid and you get this feat at 1st level, you got 5 at-will powers to choose from. Which honestly can practically have all sides covered in control (slide, push, pull, shift, ?) However, what if Extensive Training allowed you to choose an at-will power of your class and gain that at-will power as an encounter power? I mean sure, the bard would have little or no use for this feat, but it would not be anywhere as powerful.

Well, one of our primary resons for an extra at-will power is specifically controllers - we usually play fairly low-level games which means few encounter powers, and thus being left with only at-will powers. This hurts controllers much worse than other classes since they are much more dependent on having the right power at any given moment... After all other types of classes typically "cover all their bases" with just two powers since their class role is more based on class features.
#6
Qube
Oct 12, 2010 6:05:35 Some mutliclass feat (asside from skill training) grant an at will power as encounter power.
So I don't really see a problem with granting the use of a free level 1 at will attack power of your own class.
#7
mellored
Oct 12, 2010 14:47:09 The best part of home-brew feats, is they can be instantly errataed.
Or
Use them untill someone breaks them, then ask them not to.

Hybrid Talent: could definatly be unbalanced, or could be neat, depends on the selection

Extensive Training: is above the normal power level, but not broken, i'd have no issue.
#8
Sabelkatten
Oct 12, 2010 15:39:01 Thanks for the response, guys. It looks like I can propose those feats without to many worries - our resident powergamer is our current D&D4 GM, so unless we do something stupid there shouldn't be much risk of unbalancing the game. I suppose we'll have to be more careful if we start a new game with him as a player, but that's a future problem! :D
#9
ElricLikesFighting
Oct 13, 2010 3:01:58
I know you've already made the decision, but I figured my experience was still relevant. I did the extra at-will feat about a year ago, and after a few months of playing, we decided that not only wasn't it overpowered, but it wasn't even really worth a feat. Now we just give everyone an extra at-will for free. It's been fun, every PC gets a nifty little option that they can use to give their character what usually amounts to a nifty little trick they pull out once or twice a session. It's not overpowered in the least, PCs still spend the vast majority of their time using encounter powers, and most players will just spam their best at-will the rest of the time. As a DM, I'd be fine with letting a player chose five at-wills, especially now that humans have an encounter power to use instead of the extra at-will power. I think a lot of people overestimate the usefulness of most at-will powers.
#10
pluisjen
Oct 13, 2010 3:58:36 Only issue I see with the Hybrid thing is that it makes Hybrid Paragon Multiclassing useless. If you don't mind that, it should be fine.
#11
Sabelkatten
Oct 13, 2010 4:43:26

I know you've already made the decision, but I figured my experience was still relevant. I did the extra at-will feat about a year ago, and after a few months of playing, we decided that not only wasn't it overpowered, but it wasn't even really worth a feat. Now we just give everyone an extra at-will for free. It's been fun, every PC gets a nifty little option that they can use to give their character what usually amounts to a nifty little trick they pull out once or twice a session. It's not overpowered in the least, PCs still spend the vast majority of their time using encounter powers, and most players will just spam their best at-will the rest of the time. As a DM, I'd be fine with letting a player chose five at-wills, especially now that humans have an encounter power to use instead of the extra at-will power. I think a lot of people overestimate the usefulness of most at-will powers.

Well, technically it's up to the GM (and the rest of the group) to decide if it's okay, I just wanted to hear if someone had any good points. And it seems like the only problems that might crop up is with Hybrid Talents in some combinations. Which was good to know since I hadn't thought of all the possibilities!

Extensive Training did seem balanced to me - most characters hasn't seemed to need extra at-wills, but the controllers people have played has all been handicapped by just having two at-wills (seems stupid that you'd need to play a human if you want an effective controller!). I figured making it a feat should balance out any possible advantages.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Sabelkatten Oct 11, 2010 15:43:10	Two ideas I'm thinking about trying to sell to a GM: 1) Hybrid talent feat: How unbalanced would it be to allow a character to take this several times? Limited of course so that you can't get more class features than normal for either of your classes, but so that f.ex. a Rogue/Ranger could get both Beast Master and Rogue Weapon Training (but not f.ex. Beast Master and Two-Blade Style). 2) New feat: Extensive Training: You can pick one extra At-Will attack. If applicable, it does not grant you any extra power points. I new there are feats that allow a character to swap At-Wills during a long rest, but honestly, do anyone ever use that feat? One extra At-Will doesn't seem like it will bring much extra power, but the increased versitality should be worth paying a feat for, especially for Controller classes and Hybrids.
#2 mplindustries Oct 11, 2010 16:12:50	Your Hybrid idea is pretty dangerous. Right off the top of my head, I can foresee issues with Shadow Walk (Warlock) comboing with Cunning Sneak (Rogue). Surely there's more dangerous combos if you actually tried to find them...? The Extensive Training Feat is a huge bump in power, honestly. More at-wills means that you can have more situations covered. No more agonizing over your limited choices--you can just grab more. I couldn't see anyone but a Twin-Strike spammer not taking that feat, and when a feat is so universally good, I don't think it's a good feat.
#3 Sabelkatten Oct 11, 2010 17:45:43	Your Hybrid idea is pretty dangerous. Right off the top of my head, I can foresee issues with Shadow Walk (Warlock) comboing with Cunning Sneak (Rogue). Surely there's more dangerous combos if you actually tried to find them...? The Extensive Training Feat is a huge bump in power, honestly. More at-wills means that you can have more situations covered. No more agonizing over your limited choices--you can just grab more. I couldn't see anyone but a Twin-Strike spammer not taking that feat, and when a feat is so universally good, I don't think it's a good feat. I see your point with the first example. I hadn't thought that far - the case I was looking at was a Ranger/Shaman taking Beast Master and the Spirit interrupt power. In the second - is it that good? Out of the dozen or so characters I've played myself or my friends have played I can only think of one that's really needed another at-will, and maybe 3 more that could have used it. Most characters seem to get along fairly well with just two at-wills... After all, you're still giving up a feat to get the extra power, so it has to be worth as much as another feat would give you.
#4 Mehangel Oct 11, 2010 19:56:42	I agree that the Hybrid idea can easily get off hand. As for the extensive Training feat, I don't think that it would change all that much. Then again it might, I mean if you are a human druid and you get this feat at 1st level, you got 5 at-will powers to choose from. Which honestly can practically have all sides covered in control (slide, push, pull, shift, ?) However, what if Extensive Training allowed you to choose an at-will power of your class and gain that at-will power as an encounter power? I mean sure, the bard would have little or no use for this feat, but it would not be anywhere as powerful.
#5 Sabelkatten Oct 12, 2010 3:28:17	I agree that the Hybrid idea can easily get off hand. As for the extensive Training feat, I don't think that it would change all that much. Then again it might, I mean if you are a human druid and you get this feat at 1st level, you got 5 at-will powers to choose from. Which honestly can practically have all sides covered in control (slide, push, pull, shift, ?) However, what if Extensive Training allowed you to choose an at-will power of your class and gain that at-will power as an encounter power? I mean sure, the bard would have little or no use for this feat, but it would not be anywhere as powerful. Well, one of our primary resons for an extra at-will power is specifically controllers - we usually play fairly low-level games which means few encounter powers, and thus being left with only at-will powers. This hurts controllers much worse than other classes since they are much more dependent on having the right power at any given moment... After all other types of classes typically "cover all their bases" with just two powers since their class role is more based on class features.
#6 Qube Oct 12, 2010 6:05:35	Some mutliclass feat (asside from skill training) grant an at will power as encounter power. So I don't really see a problem with granting the use of a free level 1 at will attack power of your own class.
#7 mellored Oct 12, 2010 14:47:09	The best part of home-brew feats, is they can be instantly errataed. Or Use them untill someone breaks them, then ask them not to. Hybrid Talent: could definatly be unbalanced, or could be neat, depends on the selection Extensive Training: is above the normal power level, but not broken, i'd have no issue.
#8 Sabelkatten Oct 12, 2010 15:39:01	Thanks for the response, guys. It looks like I can propose those feats without to many worries - our resident powergamer is our current D&D4 GM, so unless we do something stupid there shouldn't be much risk of unbalancing the game. I suppose we'll have to be more careful if we start a new game with him as a player, but that's a future problem! :D
#9 ElricLikesFighting Oct 13, 2010 3:01:58	I know you've already made the decision, but I figured my experience was still relevant. I did the extra at-will feat about a year ago, and after a few months of playing, we decided that not only wasn't it overpowered, but it wasn't even really worth a feat. Now we just give everyone an extra at-will for free. It's been fun, every PC gets a nifty little option that they can use to give their character what usually amounts to a nifty little trick they pull out once or twice a session. It's not overpowered in the least, PCs still spend the vast majority of their time using encounter powers, and most players will just spam their best at-will the rest of the time. As a DM, I'd be fine with letting a player chose five at-wills, especially now that humans have an encounter power to use instead of the extra at-will power. I think a lot of people overestimate the usefulness of most at-will powers.
#10 pluisjen Oct 13, 2010 3:58:36	Only issue I see with the Hybrid thing is that it makes Hybrid Paragon Multiclassing useless. If you don't mind that, it should be fine.
#11 Sabelkatten Oct 13, 2010 4:43:26	I know you've already made the decision, but I figured my experience was still relevant. I did the extra at-will feat about a year ago, and after a few months of playing, we decided that not only wasn't it overpowered, but it wasn't even really worth a feat. Now we just give everyone an extra at-will for free. It's been fun, every PC gets a nifty little option that they can use to give their character what usually amounts to a nifty little trick they pull out once or twice a session. It's not overpowered in the least, PCs still spend the vast majority of their time using encounter powers, and most players will just spam their best at-will the rest of the time. As a DM, I'd be fine with letting a player chose five at-wills, especially now that humans have an encounter power to use instead of the extra at-will power. I think a lot of people overestimate the usefulness of most at-will powers. Well, technically it's up to the GM (and the rest of the group) to decide if it's okay, I just wanted to hear if someone had any good points. And it seems like the only problems that might crop up is with Hybrid Talents in some combinations. Which was good to know since I hadn't thought of all the possibilities! Extensive Training did seem balanced to me - most characters hasn't seemed to need extra at-wills, but the controllers people have played has all been handicapped by just having two at-wills (seems stupid that you'd need to play a human if you want an effective controller!). I figured making it a feat should balance out any possible advantages.