Most notably there are several instances where a daily + an action point means whoever won initiative wins the fight. There are also a few other cases of automatic wins and useless classes:
-Elf ranger can kite anyone to death in a large enough arena
-Rogues have almost no way of gaining CA
-Orb Wizard stunlock
None the less, after reading a few threads about arena combat and design I got to thinking about how arena combat could be balanced. The two main factors are novaing (action points and dailies), and the arena the fight is taking place in.
To a lesser extent allowing all class features to be useful, like giving the rogue ways to gain CA, and giving defenders some kind of use for their marks would be nice.
Here's what I've got so far.
Action Points: Getting two unlimited standard actions on the first turn (or any turn) is too powerful. Especially in low level combat. Here's the rule variant I'd place to fix this:
-Action points cannot be used with attack powers.
This would give access to second wind and allow the rogue to use it to gain combat advantage by bluffing. Some utility powers that might otherwise not be used would also become valid choices.
Dailies can take some characters out in one shot. I'm still working on how to deal with this
-Double character HP.
This should be enough HP to survive a daily. I'm not sure if your healing surge value should increase with it. Right now I'm leaning toward yes This might be best if there are multiple matches per day.
-Daily powers do half damage, one quarter damage on a miss instead of 1/2 for powers that do damage on a miss.
This would help with novaing Dailies and keep from gimping your at-wills and encounter powers respectively. The problem is many daily powers would become not any better than encounter powers, this might be better if there's one match per day.
Penalties to saves should be reduced, or certain effects should be reduced in effectiveness to keep stun-lock wins from being possible, possibly both
-Stun removes your standard action? (if you're stunned and dazed it would now stack)
-When unconscious you regain consciousness after one hit (or at least get another saving throw? With a bonus?)
-Save penalties are reduced each round? The heal skill could can give you a bonus to saving throws?
As far as the arena goes there are a few factors that need to be accounted for. The main thing I see is giving each classes features a chance to shine and be valuable without any gaining a game breaking advantage.
-The arena needs to be big enough to give ranged characters a chance to shine but there needs to be enough cover/concealment and other terrain features to allow melee to close the distance.
-There should be terrain/effects present that characters can use to gain CA. (Low-ground, fog, etc.)
There are many abilities that are dependent on having allies, or that are only useful against multiple enemies. There should be traps/items on the field that allow these abilities to shine.
-Something that acts as an ally's basic attack (so warlords don't suck)
-Something that acts as an enemy falling (so warlocks can use their pact features from cursed enemies)
-A zone where enemies take damage (for movement effects)
-Effects that trigger when multiple targets are hit (for AoE's)
Other factors
-Having an objective other than killing your opponent can make for a more varied encounter. (first to the chalice on the pillar, first to destroy specified targets)
-Having things on the battle field that grant bonuses (think super smash bros.)
-Appeal to the crowd, makes use of social skills
-One or more healing items that can be gained access to.
I'd love some input on what factors you think could improve arena combat as far as balance, variety, and making all classes valid options are concerned.
Obviously 4E was not designed to be balanced for PvP arena fights.
Most notably there are several instances where a daily + an action point means whoever won initiative wins the fight. There are also a few other cases of automatic wins and useless classes:
-Elf ranger can kite anyone to death in a large enough arena
-Rogues have almost no way of gaining CA
-Orb Wizard stunlock
None the less, after reading a few threads about arena combat and design I got to thinking about how arena combat could be balanced. The two main factors are novaing (action points and dailies), and the arena the fight is taking place in.
To a lesser extent allowing all class features to be useful, like giving the rogue ways to gain CA, and giving defenders some kind of use for their marks would be nice.
Here's what I've got so far.
Action Points: Getting two unlimited standard actions on the first turn (or any turn) is too powerful. Especially in low level combat. Here's the rule variant I'd place to fix this:
-Action points cannot be used with attack powers.
This would give access to second wind and allow the rogue to use it to gain combat advantage by bluffing. Some utility powers that might otherwise not be used would also become valid choices.
Dailies can take some characters out in one shot. I'm still working on how to deal with this
-Double character HP.
This should be enough HP to survive a daily. I'm not sure if your healing surge value should increase with it. Right now I'm leaning toward yes This might be best if there are multiple matches per day.
-Daily powers do half damage, one quarter damage on a miss instead of 1/2 for powers that do damage on a miss.
This would help with novaing Dailies and keep from gimping your at-wills and encounter powers respectively. The problem is many daily powers would become not any better than encounter powers, this might be better if there's one match per day.
Penalties to saves should be reduced, or certain effects should be reduced in effectiveness to keep stun-lock wins from being possible, possibly both
-Stun removes your standard action? (if you're stunned and dazed it would now stack)
-When unconscious you regain consciousness after one hit (or at least get another saving throw? With a bonus?)
-Save penalties are reduced each round? The heal skill could can give you a bonus to saving throws?
As far as the arena goes there are a few factors that need to be accounted for. The main thing I see is giving each classes features a chance to shine and be valuable without any gaining a game breaking advantage.
-The arena needs to be big enough to give ranged characters a chance to shine but there needs to be enough cover/concealment and other terrain features to allow melee to close the distance.
-There should be terrain/effects present that characters can use to gain CA. (Low-ground, fog, etc.)
There are many abilities that are dependent on having allies, or that are only useful against multiple enemies. There should be traps/items on the field that allow these abilities to shine.
-Something that acts as an ally's basic attack (so warlords don't suck)
-Something that acts as an enemy falling (so warlocks can use their pact features from cursed enemies)
-A zone where enemies take damage (for movement effects)
-Effects that trigger when multiple targets are hit (for AoE's)
Other factors
-Having an objective other than killing your opponent can make for a more varied encounter. (first to the chalice on the pillar, first to destroy specified targets)
-Having things on the battle field that grant bonuses (think super smash bros.)
-Appeal to the crowd, makes use of social skills
-One or more healing items that can be gained access to.
I'd love some input on what factors you think could improve arena combat as far as balance, variety, and making all classes valid options are concerned.
I think a better way to handle it would be to embrace it's team-based concepts. In other words: make it 4v4 rather than 1v1. That way, each player could design a party, and would have the capability of matching well-rounded group to well-rounded group. Then you could make it into a team-based arena game with objectives (ooh, a fantasy-styled capture the flag game could be interesting).
There's some food for thought.
- Lighting conditions, fog, walls, and other terrain quirks that might allow a player to hide and make a stealth check
- Traps and hazards
- Objects that block line of sight, grant cover or concealment
- Minions. Always with the minions.
- No camping
Obviously 4E was not designed to be balanced for PvP arena fights.
Most notably there are several instances where a daily + an action point means whoever won initiative wins the fight.
To prevent the initiative + AP + daily instant win, you can make the PvP be a best 2 out or 3, 3 out of 5 or 4 out of 7 match. Between each combat, players get a short rest to recharge their encounter powers and use healing surges to heal up. If a player is dropped to 0 hp and has no healing surges left, he automatically loses. Dailies do not recharge, so you can blow your daily on the first game of the match and then have none left for subsequent games. AP's are gained after every 2nd battle win or lose. This will make 1 on 1 games feel a little like a short dungeon crawl with many encounters. Players will have to decide when to use their dailies and AP's as there will be more than one encounter. The D&D rules were designed to allow PC's to last a few to several combats before an extended rest and this format simulates multiple battles before an extended rest.
There are also a few other cases of automatic wins and useless classes:
-Elf ranger can kite anyone to death in a large enough arena
Just limit the area so that ranged characters get at least one round of attacks in prior to the opponent closing into melee. I think you need to balance things out so that ranged characters get some advantage and melee characters get some as well.
-Rogues have almost no way of gaining CA
I believe they can use bluff. Also, they have First Strike.
-Orb Wizard stunlock
I'm not sure how this affects the average outcome over many battles. It may be that such battles are simply boring, but the outcome is pretty balanced. Perhaps you will see the battles decided in the first round, but on average the wizard only wins about half.
Minions. Always with the minions
I love the idea but I'm not sure how to implement it.
Enemies attached to poles that take OA's against whoever is passing by?
A group of wild animals that gets released mid battle?
:lightbulb
Just limit the area so that ranged characters get at least one round of attacks in prior to the opponent closing into melee. I think you need to balance things out so that ranged characters get some advantage and melee characters get some as well.
Yea, I was thinking the arena should be about 3 move actions across this would give ranged characters 1-2 attack rolls before an enemy can close. If I include some difficult terrain so ranged attackers with range 5 and 10 powers can utilize them and the previously mentioned cover (I'm thinking walls).
To prevent the initiative + AP + daily instant win, you can make the PvP be a best 2 out or 3, 3 out of 5 or 4 out of 7 match.
The problem with this is then there are 2-3 encounters each way that end with an AP+daily or two dailies and only one or two where you're actually fighting. I'd like to just bypass those one shot fights all together.
I think a better way to handle it would be to embrace it's team-based concepts. In other words: make it 4v4 rather than 1v1. That way, each player could design a party, and would have the capability of matching well-rounded group to well-rounded group. Then you could make it into a team-based arena game with objectives (ooh, a fantasy-styled capture the flag game could be interesting).
There's some food for thought.
Cool idea, but not what I'm going for.
I believe they can use bluff. Also, they have First Strike.
Thus "almost no way"
I love the idea but I'm not sure how to implement it.
Just throw an even number of minions in there.
Thus "almost no way"
Design an arena where there's plenty of places to hide. A guy runs behind a wall, makes a stealth check, baddabing.
On any round in which a leader character uses his ability, he can designate an "ally" during that ability. if that "ally" decides to attack the leader he becomes an enemy and loses benefits until the leader decides to use another ability on him.
A controller could decide if he wants to designate any targets as his "ally" when he blows the others up. This could make for a good bargaining chip if the controller doesn't think he or the striker could take out the defender on their own.
With this option, even in an open arena, the ranged has to worry about something or somebody.
The other option is to have the melee combat be one arena, and have ranged be another. It's how they did it in real life for those kind of tournaments.
The problem with this is then there are 2-3 encounters each way that end with an AP+daily or two dailies and only one or two where you're actually fighting. I'd like to just bypass those one shot fights all together.
There is no guarantee that you would hit with the dailies. If you use your AP + 2 dailies, then unless you are level 9 or higher, you have no more dailies left for the rest of the match. At higher levels, you probably will have enough hit points to survive. Leaders may be able to heal themselves with encounter powers.
With a best out of X match, at least players have the option of going nova on the first game and then try to make it through the rest of the match without dailies. It would also make each game of the match different. When you have dailies and AP's the battle would be different. Over the course of the match, each battle will be different. Sure, you will get the nova battle, but you will also get some longer battles, too.
3v3 and only 1 daily and no action points.