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Armor Scaling Problem

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
guest1922109814
Apr 27, 2010 14:12:07
We all know about the heavy armors drama. In D&D 4e the armor class scales with two basic values, armor bonus (provided by your type) and ability bonus (provided by your dexterity or intelligence).

The problem with the heavy armors is that they don't receive any ability bonus. It is true that heavy armors provide the greatest armor bonus and that makes the game just fine for the first seven levels of your character. After that, light armor characters begin to build a slight advantage against heavy armor users. Let's see the numbers...

Paladin-30 (Member of a defense class)

    Armor bonus                ability bonus        10+level bonus              armor class

(Full plate armor)

          +8                                   0                        +25                                 32

Ranger-30 (Member of a striker class)

    Armor bonus                ability bonus      10+level bonus             armor class

   (Hide armor)                  (Dexterity)

        +3                                  +9                        +25                               36

As we can see, users of light armors that favor intelligence or dexterity can have a greater armor class value than the heaviest tank, the paladin.

Wizards of the Coast wouldn't let that happen and the solution was the creation of new armors subtypes. Let's see numbers once again with the appropriated armors for each character.

Paladin-30

    Armor bonus                ability bonus      10+level bonus              armor class

(Godplate armor)

         +14                                  0                          +25                                39

Ranger-30

    Armor bonus                ability bonus      10+level bonus              armor class

(elderhide armor)           (Dexterity)

          +5                                  +9                         +25                                39

The solution fixed the problem keeping the heavy armor users just equal to light armor users when they favor intelligence or dexterity. Although this solution is not elegant in my seeing, sending to the dungeon master the responsibility of updating every players armors as they level up. This solution created also a great pain for players who benefit from heavy armors since almost no DM will remember or sometimes even not want to upgrade player’s armors. Dungeon masters are very busy guys most of the time and the idea of having armor subtypes doesn't sound ok to me.

"Josh, you just found a full plate in the back of the room."

"Really? Is it magic?"

"It's just like yours but it's a warplate."

That's why I've being testing a new solution with my group. The idea is to keep the armor scale automatic.

Heavy Armor Users:

-> Add 1 to his armor bonus on level 8.

-> Add 1 to his armor bonus on level 11.

-> Add 1 to his armor bonus on level 14.

-> Add 2 to his armor bonus on level 21.

-> Add 1 to his armor bonus on level 28.

Light Armor Users:

-> Add 1 to his armor bonus on level 11.

-> Add 1 to his armor bonus on level 21.

Adding 0.5 to heavy armor users' AC every level they get abilities boosted, and adding 1 to every bodies’ armor when they hit paragon and epic makes the AC of every class just fine when they hit the appropriated level. The idea is not to change the game mechanic but to make things easier to dungeon master as also to make a level 1 full plate just the same type of armor of level 30.
#2
Dark_Stryke
Apr 27, 2010 14:54:49 Erm, methinks you may have misunderstood.

ALL +4 Full Plate is Warplate.

ALL +6 Full Plate is Godplate.

There's no such thing as +4 Full Plate or +6 Warplate or any of that nonsense.

I'm also confused as to why the DM wouldn't be handing out armor upgrades at the appropriate levels. Seems somewhat odd, since the entire balance of the game is based on the players having the approrpiate equipment.

They even corrected the progression so heavy armor wearers' AC doesn't suddenly jump up by four points at certain levels (+3 from the armor, +1 from the additional enhancement bonus). Check out PHB 2 page 197-198 for the modified progression.
#3
guest1922109814
Apr 27, 2010 15:23:46
Erm, methinks you may have misunderstood.

ALL +4 Full Plate is Warplate.

ALL +6 Full Plate is Godplate.

There's no such thing as +4 Full Plate or +6 Warplate or any of that nonsense.

I'm also confused as to why the DM wouldn't be handing out armor upgrades at the appropriate levels. Seems somewhat odd, since the entire balance of the game is based on the players having the approrpiate equipment.

They even corrected the progression so heavy armor wearers' AC doesn't suddenly jump up by four points at certain levels (+3 from the armor, +1 from the additional enhancement bonus). Check out PHB 2 page 197-198 for the modified progression.

As the Adventure's Vault shows and as it appears on PHB2 there is such thing of +6 warplate. Since what is shown is the minimum enhancement bonus. That means a Tarrasque plate armor can't have less than +6 enhancement bonus, but nothing says you can't find a +6 Full Plate.

PHB2 page 197

"The type and level of magic
armor determines if it can be masterwork, as detailed
in the tables below. The cost of masterwork armor is
included in the cost of magic armor, so higher-level
characters should seek out masterwork armor instead
of normal magic armor."

The new heavy armor table only turns the AC improvement gradual. But it stills hard for a DM to control when he has to step up the armors since most of groups use different sorts of armors such as "hide", "chainmail", "cloth" and those armors won't scale at the same point.
#4
alitain
Apr 27, 2010 19:55:10 All this talk about what a pain it is the DM, I don't understand. If upgrading armor is such a pain for the DM, that's his problem not the problem of the system because obviously if upgrading items for players is such a chore that's been a problem since the start not something that just came about because of AV's masterwork armors.

It doesn't cost anything extra for masterwork, which means for a DM the only chore of upgrading items for players is adding the name of the masterwork armor to whatever armor you're giving out. Personally, an extra word doesn't seem that much of a chore to me but if it is for you or your DM or whoever, then I'm sorry.
#5
salla
Apr 27, 2010 21:15:43
All this talk about what a pain it is the DM, I don't understand. If upgrading armor is such a pain for the DM, that's his problem not the problem of the system because obviously if upgrading items for players is such a chore that's been a problem since the start not something that just came about because of AV's masterwork armors.

It doesn't cost anything extra for masterwork, which means for a DM the only chore of upgrading items for players is adding the name of the masterwork armor to whatever armor you're giving out. Personally, an extra word doesn't seem that much of a chore to me but if it is for you or your DM or whoever, then I'm sorry.

Really. All you have to do is check the armor tables to see if armor of that plus should be masterwork (and past level 6, all heavy armor is), and erase 'chainmail' and write 'finemail' or whatever.
#6
Dark_Stryke
Apr 27, 2010 21:58:44
As the Adventure's Vault shows and as it appears on PHB2 there is such thing of +6 warplate. Since what is shown is the minimum enhancement bonus. That means a Tarrasque plate armor can't have less than +6 enhancement bonus, but nothing says you can't find a +6 Full Plate.

PHB2 page 197

"The type and level of magic
armor determines if it can be masterwork, as detailed
in the tables below. The cost of masterwork armor is
included in the cost of magic armor, so higher-level
characters should seek out masterwork armor instead
of normal magic armor."

The new heavy armor table only turns the AC improvement gradual. But it stills hard for a DM to control when he has to step up the armors since most of groups use different sorts of armors such as "hide", "chainmail", "cloth" and those armors won't scale at the same point.

My mistake. However, it's still not a big deal. Why on earth would you give a player +6 fullplate when you know they need Godplate? It'd be the same thing as giving them +1 armor instead of +6. I've always played that any armor of the appropriate enhancement bonus is masterwork armor of that level, and it works out pretty well.

As for your other, erm, "issue", of course cloth, leather, and hide don't scale at the same rate. Their lower scaling is made up for by light armor users getting dex/int bonuses to AC. Didn't you point that out yourself in your OP?

Yes, they probably won't scale at the exact same rate as the heavy armor wearers, but so what? It's a relatively minor issue, and these house rules seem like a convoluted way to fix it.

That said, yes, the rules do work. I wouldn't use them, but if it's an issue for you then this solves it.
#7
tequila_sunrise
Apr 29, 2010 23:27:07

I never even relised that heavier armor didn't benifit from ability modifiers I could have sworn they did, hmm perhaps I will allow those in heavier armor to gain extra effects from there armor like damage reduction or even simply let them get the bonus anyhows since it would amke sence that having a ton of armor and the smarts/movment to make the best use of that armor. I mean a smart plate mail fighter could twist and move anticipating attacks in ways that allow better use of the armor. now I am going to have to actualy put some thought into the matter.

You don't get a stat mod to AC in heavy armor because it could easily be broken. Just imagine a sword mage in God Plate armor -- that would be AC 56 at level 30. Tiamat herself would need to roll a nat 18 to hit that guy!
#8
pluisjen
Apr 30, 2010 3:18:16

I never even relised that heavier armor didn't benifit from ability modifiers I could have sworn they did, hmm perhaps I will allow those in heavier armor to gain extra effects from there armor like damage reduction or even simply let them get the bonus anyhows since it would amke sence that having a ton of armor and the smarts/movment to make the best use of that armor. I mean a smart plate mail fighter could twist and move anticipating attacks in ways that allow better use of the armor. now I am going to have to actualy put some thought into the matter.

Don't bother house ruling it, the bigger heavy armors have a DR option you can pick instead of more AC, they're in the Adventurer's Vault I think?

It's really a balance thing why you don't add a stat, but you can get stuff like Tarrasque Plate (I believe?) at the very high levels that grants you Resist 5 all, which is really good.
#9
pluisjen
Apr 30, 2010 3:21:29 Most enemies that target AC don't have much of a choice in the matter; either it's the only thing they can (reliably and/or effectively) target or you've got the mage cornered and he's pounding away with his quarterstaff or something.
#10
stargazer_dragon
Apr 30, 2010 3:31:23 players ac get to high then the big bad boss just have to change tactics and try other attack methods IE hire / gather more monster that target other things but again I see your point and full agree that letting AC get to out of hand would be bad

**deleating my smaller posts as they make things look cluttered to me and topic seams to have drifted off a bit.
#11
octavius
May 27, 2010 14:00:02 you forgot about shields. a paladin is more likely to use a shield than a ranger. In addition, a 30 paladin will have more hit points than a 30 ranger, and will likely have a better constitution, so he can soak up a few more hits.

my experience with paladins were only in the heroic tier, but when run against monsters of the same level, the paladins rarely got hit in comparison to other classes.

I personally don't think it's a broken problem, but if you feel the paladin is getting hit more often than he should, i would agree that you go with granting a minor amount of resist physical or resist melee with heavy armor (resist 1-3 is my advice, no higher than 5 at level 30, because it can become unbalancing.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 guest1922109814 Apr 27, 2010 14:12:07	We all know about the heavy armors drama. In D&D 4e the armor class scales with two basic values, armor bonus (provided by your type) and ability bonus (provided by your dexterity or intelligence). The problem with the heavy armors is that they don't receive any ability bonus. It is true that heavy armors provide the greatest armor bonus and that makes the game just fine for the first seven levels of your character. After that, light armor characters begin to build a slight advantage against heavy armor users. Let's see the numbers... Paladin-30 (Member of a defense class) Armor bonus ability bonus 10+level bonus armor class (Full plate armor) +8 0 +25 32 Ranger-30 (Member of a striker class) Armor bonus ability bonus 10+level bonus armor class (Hide armor) (Dexterity) +3 +9 +25 36 As we can see, users of light armors that favor intelligence or dexterity can have a greater armor class value than the heaviest tank, the paladin. Wizards of the Coast wouldn't let that happen and the solution was the creation of new armors subtypes. Let's see numbers once again with the appropriated armors for each character. Paladin-30 Armor bonus ability bonus 10+level bonus armor class (Godplate armor) +14 0 +25 39 Ranger-30 Armor bonus ability bonus 10+level bonus armor class (elderhide armor) (Dexterity) +5 +9 +25 39 The solution fixed the problem keeping the heavy armor users just equal to light armor users when they favor intelligence or dexterity. Although this solution is not elegant in my seeing, sending to the dungeon master the responsibility of updating every players armors as they level up. This solution created also a great pain for players who benefit from heavy armors since almost no DM will remember or sometimes even not want to upgrade player’s armors. Dungeon masters are very busy guys most of the time and the idea of having armor subtypes doesn't sound ok to me. "Josh, you just found a full plate in the back of the room." "Really? Is it magic?" "It's just like yours but it's a warplate." That's why I've being testing a new solution with my group. The idea is to keep the armor scale automatic. Heavy Armor Users: -> Add 1 to his armor bonus on level 8. -> Add 1 to his armor bonus on level 11. -> Add 1 to his armor bonus on level 14. -> Add 2 to his armor bonus on level 21. -> Add 1 to his armor bonus on level 28. Light Armor Users: -> Add 1 to his armor bonus on level 11. -> Add 1 to his armor bonus on level 21. Adding 0.5 to heavy armor users' AC every level they get abilities boosted, and adding 1 to every bodies’ armor when they hit paragon and epic makes the AC of every class just fine when they hit the appropriated level. The idea is not to change the game mechanic but to make things easier to dungeon master as also to make a level 1 full plate just the same type of armor of level 30.
#2 Dark_Stryke Apr 27, 2010 14:54:49	Erm, methinks you may have misunderstood. ALL +4 Full Plate is Warplate. ALL +6 Full Plate is Godplate. There's no such thing as +4 Full Plate or +6 Warplate or any of that nonsense. I'm also confused as to why the DM wouldn't be handing out armor upgrades at the appropriate levels. Seems somewhat odd, since the entire balance of the game is based on the players having the approrpiate equipment. They even corrected the progression so heavy armor wearers' AC doesn't suddenly jump up by four points at certain levels (+3 from the armor, +1 from the additional enhancement bonus). Check out PHB 2 page 197-198 for the modified progression.
#3 guest1922109814 Apr 27, 2010 15:23:46	Erm, methinks you may have misunderstood. ALL +4 Full Plate is Warplate. ALL +6 Full Plate is Godplate. There's no such thing as +4 Full Plate or +6 Warplate or any of that nonsense. I'm also confused as to why the DM wouldn't be handing out armor upgrades at the appropriate levels. Seems somewhat odd, since the entire balance of the game is based on the players having the approrpiate equipment. They even corrected the progression so heavy armor wearers' AC doesn't suddenly jump up by four points at certain levels (+3 from the armor, +1 from the additional enhancement bonus). Check out PHB 2 page 197-198 for the modified progression. As the Adventure's Vault shows and as it appears on PHB2 there is such thing of +6 warplate. Since what is shown is the minimum enhancement bonus. That means a Tarrasque plate armor can't have less than +6 enhancement bonus, but nothing says you can't find a +6 Full Plate. PHB2 page 197 "The type and level of magic armor determines if it can be masterwork, as detailed in the tables below. The cost of masterwork armor is included in the cost of magic armor, so higher-level characters should seek out masterwork armor instead of normal magic armor." The new heavy armor table only turns the AC improvement gradual. But it stills hard for a DM to control when he has to step up the armors since most of groups use different sorts of armors such as "hide", "chainmail", "cloth" and those armors won't scale at the same point.
#4 alitain Apr 27, 2010 19:55:10	All this talk about what a pain it is the DM, I don't understand. If upgrading armor is such a pain for the DM, that's his problem not the problem of the system because obviously if upgrading items for players is such a chore that's been a problem since the start not something that just came about because of AV's masterwork armors. It doesn't cost anything extra for masterwork, which means for a DM the only chore of upgrading items for players is adding the name of the masterwork armor to whatever armor you're giving out. Personally, an extra word doesn't seem that much of a chore to me but if it is for you or your DM or whoever, then I'm sorry.
#5 salla Apr 27, 2010 21:15:43	All this talk about what a pain it is the DM, I don't understand. If upgrading armor is such a pain for the DM, that's his problem not the problem of the system because obviously if upgrading items for players is such a chore that's been a problem since the start not something that just came about because of AV's masterwork armors. It doesn't cost anything extra for masterwork, which means for a DM the only chore of upgrading items for players is adding the name of the masterwork armor to whatever armor you're giving out. Personally, an extra word doesn't seem that much of a chore to me but if it is for you or your DM or whoever, then I'm sorry. Really. All you have to do is check the armor tables to see if armor of that plus should be masterwork (and past level 6, all heavy armor is), and erase 'chainmail' and write 'finemail' or whatever.
#6 Dark_Stryke Apr 27, 2010 21:58:44	As the Adventure's Vault shows and as it appears on PHB2 there is such thing of +6 warplate. Since what is shown is the minimum enhancement bonus. That means a Tarrasque plate armor can't have less than +6 enhancement bonus, but nothing says you can't find a +6 Full Plate. PHB2 page 197 "The type and level of magic armor determines if it can be masterwork, as detailed in the tables below. The cost of masterwork armor is included in the cost of magic armor, so higher-level characters should seek out masterwork armor instead of normal magic armor." The new heavy armor table only turns the AC improvement gradual. But it stills hard for a DM to control when he has to step up the armors since most of groups use different sorts of armors such as "hide", "chainmail", "cloth" and those armors won't scale at the same point. My mistake. However, it's still not a big deal. Why on earth would you give a player +6 fullplate when you know they need Godplate? It'd be the same thing as giving them +1 armor instead of +6. I've always played that any armor of the appropriate enhancement bonus is masterwork armor of that level, and it works out pretty well. As for your other, erm, "issue", of course cloth, leather, and hide don't scale at the same rate. Their lower scaling is made up for by light armor users getting dex/int bonuses to AC. Didn't you point that out yourself in your OP? Yes, they probably won't scale at the exact same rate as the heavy armor wearers, but so what? It's a relatively minor issue, and these house rules seem like a convoluted way to fix it. That said, yes, the rules do work. I wouldn't use them, but if it's an issue for you then this solves it.
#7 tequila_sunrise Apr 29, 2010 23:27:07	I never even relised that heavier armor didn't benifit from ability modifiers I could have sworn they did, hmm perhaps I will allow those in heavier armor to gain extra effects from there armor like damage reduction or even simply let them get the bonus anyhows since it would amke sence that having a ton of armor and the smarts/movment to make the best use of that armor. I mean a smart plate mail fighter could twist and move anticipating attacks in ways that allow better use of the armor. now I am going to have to actualy put some thought into the matter. You don't get a stat mod to AC in heavy armor because it could easily be broken. Just imagine a sword mage in God Plate armor -- that would be AC 56 at level 30. Tiamat herself would need to roll a nat 18 to hit that guy!
#8 pluisjen Apr 30, 2010 3:18:16	I never even relised that heavier armor didn't benifit from ability modifiers I could have sworn they did, hmm perhaps I will allow those in heavier armor to gain extra effects from there armor like damage reduction or even simply let them get the bonus anyhows since it would amke sence that having a ton of armor and the smarts/movment to make the best use of that armor. I mean a smart plate mail fighter could twist and move anticipating attacks in ways that allow better use of the armor. now I am going to have to actualy put some thought into the matter. Don't bother house ruling it, the bigger heavy armors have a DR option you can pick instead of more AC, they're in the Adventurer's Vault I think? It's really a balance thing why you don't add a stat, but you can get stuff like Tarrasque Plate (I believe?) at the very high levels that grants you Resist 5 all, which is really good.
#9 pluisjen Apr 30, 2010 3:21:29	Most enemies that target AC don't have much of a choice in the matter; either it's the only thing they can (reliably and/or effectively) target or you've got the mage cornered and he's pounding away with his quarterstaff or something.
#10 stargazer_dragon Apr 30, 2010 3:31:23	players ac get to high then the big bad boss just have to change tactics and try other attack methods IE hire / gather more monster that target other things but again I see your point and full agree that letting AC get to out of hand would be bad **deleating my smaller posts as they make things look cluttered to me and topic seams to have drifted off a bit.
#11 octavius May 27, 2010 14:00:02	you forgot about shields. a paladin is more likely to use a shield than a ranger. In addition, a 30 paladin will have more hit points than a 30 ranger, and will likely have a better constitution, so he can soak up a few more hits. my experience with paladins were only in the heroic tier, but when run against monsters of the same level, the paladins rarely got hit in comparison to other classes. I personally don't think it's a broken problem, but if you feel the paladin is getting hit more often than he should, i would agree that you go with granting a minor amount of resist physical or resist melee with heavy armor (resist 1-3 is my advice, no higher than 5 at level 30, because it can become unbalancing.)