That said, my original plan was to simply reflavor some wizard spells (specifically any conjurations) - Flaming Sphere was my prototype for this.
Here's my stab at the at-will Astral Construct. It is primarily a reflavor of the cloud of daggers power, modified a bit to better match the flaming sphere mechanics.
why not just makes stats for the creature and use that? If the creature is actually in the square that sounds easier to me and is more interesting. If it is an effect it should be an instant then disappear. Just my opinion.
See This Thread and Others for some of the issues already discussed with summoning.
In short, adding creatures to the battlefield is more complex than is necessary in the 4th Edition framework, so I'm trying to avoid it like the plague.
By treating Astral Constructs as conjurations (or zones, later), we can have all of the positive effects of having a summoned critter (sustainable temporary ally that attacks -for- you) without being concerned about breaking the system.
Being able to "block" a square with a temporary ally is a more complex consideration in 4th (with it's more extensive tactical movement) than it was previously. That is one of the reasons I wanted the Astral Constuct at-will power to not physically occupy a square, but to still give the effect of a tiny creature occupying the square (it makes attacks, similar to opportunity attacks, against creatures that enter its square - that, at least, is the flavor explanation for the Wis damage for starting-in or moving-into the square).
In short, why add whole additional creatures to the mix if it can be avoided? I, for one, get no extra satisfaction from rolling extra dice just to get a similar in-game effect. (For example, I'm perfectly happy with the Two-Weapon Fighting feats in 4th not actually granting extra attack rolls.)
The whole point of summoning to me is to actually bring a monster onto the field and to have it do something, just having another power that is the same effect as all the rest is not interesting to me.
The whole problem that I see with 4th edition is that all the classes became too similar and therefore are somewhat uninteresting. Conjuration is a fantasy staple that should be in the game, the fact that it is not is sad.
That makes sense, but to me that makes the summoning ability the same as any other power, so why bother?
The whole point of summoning to me is to actually bring a monster onto the field and to have it do something, just having another power that is the same effect as all the rest is not interesting to me.
The whole problem that I see with 4th edition is that all the classes became too similar and therefore are somewhat uninteresting. Conjuration is a fantasy staple that should be in the game, the fact that it is not is sad.
Oooh boy. Let's not let this turn into another "anything vs. 4E" discussion. There are enough of those (that's not directed at you, kodyboy, but everyone in general, given the state of things around here).
That said, the "why bother" maybe isn't apparent with this first power, but it might be once I begin to put together more powers later.
The short of it is that I don't mind the mechanics being similar (and I give you that). Not only do I not mind that, I kinda enjoy it, as it makes it easier to design things without fear of totally breaking the system down.
The point of summoning, to me too, is to actually bring a monster onto the field and have it do something - I totally agree with you.
Where I disagree, however, is that this needs a new / different mechanic to it. Minor Construct does, in fact, bring a creature onto the field, and said creature does, in fact, do something. However, the rules for it are no different from other things.
You may note that, compared to similar level 3.X spells/powers (and I use 3.X because it's the only other system that I'm intimately familiar with), at 1st level, and indeed further levels, this is the best you could hope for with summoning anyways. In fact it's better than what you could have had in that system, since the creature can persist beyond one round.
Still, I understand your concern.
What's really getting me, though, is how to do an encounter summon, along the same lines. No encounter powers that I could find are sustainable, so I'm a little bit worried about applying these mechanics to the encounter set of powers.
What's really getting me, though, is how to do an encounter summon, along the same lines. No encounter powers that I could find are sustainable, so I'm a little bit worried about applying these mechanics to the encounter set of powers.
Two ways, I think: (A) "This power lasts until the end of the encounter" or (B) Sustain X and damn the consequences. Sustaining is more of a balance mechanism than a benefit, because it makes you spend actions to keep something going rather than just having it work. I'd say go with Sustaining; it should be fine.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1059452
here are a couple of conjuration/summoning ideas that may help.
I think summoning should really bring unique benefits to the field. Having a creature on the field will give a number of unique benefits without even needing to give said creature actions. Things like flanking, attacks of opportunity, and a general barrier to movement. Thats all without giving any turns to the construct, and allows a different form of control over the field. Simplifying the construct to minion like status will also eliminate bookkeeping for the construct. Just a thought to try something that is very different from anything out there. On the surface it does not seem unbalanced.
Minor abilities on the battlefield are what I'm going to go with, I think. The things you describe already exist in the game, really. Check out Cleric conjuration powers, and I believe some of the Artificer powers.
As I think I've said before (note: too lazy to scroll up at the moment), the "flavor" reason that, for example, the Minor Construct deals damage to creatures that enter its square is the same flavor reason for opportunity attacks in general.
I'd rather keep the mechanics as simple / close to existing mechanics as possible, while changing the flavor text (and the mechanics, to a degree) so much that it is, in essence, a completely new power.
That said, I plan on trying my hand at an Encounter-type astral construct power as soon as I finish the heroic-tier for my Telepath.
Almost... there...
Let me see if I can make a sort of drawing. Let - equal a square. X is where you were when summoned the Construct. Y is where you've moved. Can you move the construct (known as C-where you summoned the construct originally) as far as Z?
Z---------Y-----X---------C
I recently played a game where my character could summon a monster of his level (standard monster), sustain standard and it was a daily. I summoned an Imp as a third level character, but it could have been something else. It worked fine, did not cause issues, and really was not that tough.
That's good to hear. It's still not the approach I want to take, at least not for Astral Constructs (I'm getting quite fond of them as invincible ectoplasmic puppets).
I'll respond in more detail in your new thread, so as to not derail this one more than necessary.
I'll have to look at the wizard powers they emulate but for now my only question is about the movement. What if you move more than 10 squares away from it and then decide to move it. The movement says simply, "any square within range". Does that mean you could move it as many as 20 squares + the distance you've moved?
Let me see if I can make a sort of drawing. Let - equal a square. X is where you were when summoned the Construct. Y is where you've moved. Can you move the construct (known as C-where you summoned the construct originally) as far as Z?
Z---------Y-----X---------C
Oh, bah. I had a long, detailed response prepared, but then I read the Conjuration description a bit better.
If a power allows you to move a conjuration, at least 1 square that the conjuration occupies must remain within the power's range. If you move far enough away from a conjuration that it is no longer in range, its effect immediately ends.
I think, as is then, the range should be fine at Close burst 10. Fights shouldn't normally be too much more distant than that anyways.
I do think a class feat or a paragon path feature (looking at the level 11 or 16 Erbauer features, they could probably absorb another effect) may need to increase the distance that the constructs that be from you (but not the range into which they can be conjured).
Let me know when you take a more detailed look though. I may playtest them later, just as Wizard spells for the moment. I'd love to have more input though.
I like the astral construct idea that you came up with as a conjuration (something made out of magic, constructed as opposed to summoned) and that is cool. I just get hung up on the idea that the astral construct is tangible, yet can not be hurt. That concept just seems odd to me.
I like the astral construct idea that you came up with as a conjuration (something made out of magic, constructed as opposed to summoned) and that is cool. I just get hung up on the idea that the astral construct is tangible, yet can not be hurt. That concept just seems odd to me.
Well, it's kinda summoned. I think the best way to think about it may be this: It's a big pile of animated goo - what's the worst you could do to it, other than erasing the force that holds it together (ie - dispel magic)?
You might consider giving them hit points equal to the creators healing surge value. The possibility of destroying them could help balance them out especially if they are used to block choke points.
I'm considering it for that very reason. I'm still holding out though, just becuase I'm avoiding conjurations with hit points like the plague.
My thought, when that came up, is that a shaper could only sustain 3, max, to block a choke-point, and that's at significant cost, requiring at least 2 turns (with an action point) to set up, and all three actions to sustain. Not to mention that a Daze or Stun effect immediately knocks it down to 1.
Blocking a 1-square hallway is easy enough. It's probably where it would get most broken, as well.
Blocking a 2-square hallway requires 3rd level, or can be done at first with a daily.
Blocking a 3-square hallway is as good as it gets, and requires 7th level if you don't want to blow a daily. My concern would be blocking a target into a corner.
Still, is there any way to get around this without giving them hit points? Especially for Daily conjurations, the conjuration would have to be very carefully balanced if it has hit points. Too weak, and there was no point giving it hit points, because barring an area attack nothing is going to bother swinging at it. Too strong, and there's no real reason to have given it a Sustain action, because anything with half a brain will take it out as soon as it can.
In addition, if it does have hit points, and it is worth attacking, how do you balance out for the fact that it is now absorbing hits that could have been directed at the party?
EDIT:
Just for clarification, I'm not dismissing your concern. It's a problem that I didn't really notice until I was nearly done, and decided that it was something I would just have to iron out later. I'm just eager to see alternative solutions to the problem. So far the ideas are:
- Give them hit points (at the moment, it is as if they have enough hit points that no creature would bother wasting the attacks on them).
- Give a maximum number of sustained conjuration (this already exists - the maximum is 3).
- Enemy can move through construct's space, perhaps at additional cost, but cannot end movement there.
- Encounter conjurations cannot be sustained.
- Limited sustain duration. (At the moment, this is the option I'm liking the best. The problem, however, still exists - it's just limited in its duration.)
... but I'd still like to see more options.
RE-EDIT:
Okay, so, I really like the last idea on the list above, partially because it gives me something to work with for a Constructor option for class features. Under this proposed change, I would change each Encounter power from "You can sustain this power until the end of the encounter" to "You can sustain this power for a number of rounds equal to your level." In addition, there would be a Constructor class feature option (one of, let's say, three options, to parallel the wizard), that would read: "When you use a shaper or shaper paragon path conjuration, increase the amount of time you can sustain the power by a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom modifier."
Just a thought, at the moment.
Sustaining for a number of turns equal to the conjurers level is interesting, although pretty useless for the lower levels. Maybe sustain for X rounds + the conjurers level?
Pretty useless? If I can get the effects down properly, each power should be about as "useful" as an equal-level Wizard power. Part of the problem at the moment is that sustainable encounter powers are more powerful than equal level wizard powers.
The more that I try to "fix" this problem, the more obvious it becomes that encounter powers do not have extended durations for a very good reason.
I'm actually considering taking them lower, down to "You can sustain this power for 1 round," for all encounter summons.
Why?
Well, if I do that they'll behave like Encounter Powers, which is a step in the right direction.
"Scaling" inside of a power is against 4th edition design principles.
Additionally, I can make the effects a tiny bit meatier.
If I do have the constructor feature increase the potential sustain duration, it will have a consistent value with this option. A concern, though, would be that adding the full Wis mod might be a bit too much, since it would be multiplying the duration massively, instead of adding a slight benefit.
Just a suggestion, but I've made a thread for the Astral Construct before, so, if you want, you can view it and borrow some ideas. (How do I post a Link to it?)
Really? I didn't see it in a search. Must have missed it.
Link tag is: [ URL="web address" ]link text[ /URL ], without the spaces inside the tags of course.
You might consider giving them hit points equal to the creators healing surge value. The possibility of destroying them could help balance them out especially if they are used to block choke points.
Back to this issue, I think I've got it to a balanced, workable position. Part of the key is changing all instances of the Conjuration keyword with the following:
New Keyword:
Construction: Powers that create objects or creatures of ectoplasm drawn from the Astral Sea.
but it still does not feel like a conjuration/summoning to me.
And it does to me. We've been over this. It's a personal preference thing. If it bugs you, don't think of it as summoning, think of it as...
... a field of.....goo?
Yup. That.
I guess it depends on how tough it is and how much damage it does, but it still looks too much like every other power to me.
Really? Sustainable conjurations that you can use to attack? That only looks like one or two powers to me.
Now, if you're making comments about 4th's system in general...
1.) I agree, it looks "like every other power." It's what happens when the game uses a uniform system.
2.) I disagree that it's "too much." A lot of people do. 4th's rule system is great because of what you can do inside the existing mechanics.
I don't see setting the blocker idea being such a big deal (if it has HP and can be killed) because you can just destroy it. Keep us posted on how it plays
It's a bigger deal when I'm not using hit points, and they can't be killed. Hence the adjustments above, and the further adjustments (and general overhaul) to follow this post.
Keywords
New Keyword:
Construction: Powers that create objects or creatures of ectoplasm drawn from the Astral Sea.
Constructions
Powers that have the construction keyword create objects or creatures of ectoplasm drawn from the Astral Sea.
A construction is treated as a conjuration, except for the following.
Unless a power description says otherwise, a construction can't be attacked or physically affected, and allies of the construction's creator can move through the space a construction occupies. Enemies of the construction's creator can move through the space a construction occupies, but they treat the space as difficult terrain, and the construction's controller can use it to make an attack against the creature as an immediate interrupt.
New Keyword:
Construction: Powers that create objects or creatures of ectoplasm drawn from the Astral Sea.
Constructions
Powers that have the construction keyword create objects or creatures of ectoplasm drawn from the Astral Sea.
A construction is treated as a conjuration, except for the following.
Unless a power description says otherwise, a construction can't be attacked or physically affected, and allies of the construction's creator can move through the space a construction occupies. Enemies of the construction's creator can move through the space a construction occupies, but they treat the space as difficult terrain, and the construction's controller can use it to make an attack against the creature as an immediate interrupt.
"...lasts until the end of your next turn (save allows sustain)" and then add what happens when you sustain.
One of the goals of 4e was to eliminate duration tracking, so there really isn't anything that lasts a set number of rounds. What the above does is sort of impose a limiting factor on how long you are able to sustain any single effect.
As for your class feature to increase duration, have them instead grant a bonus on the "save allows sustain" roll; either a set bonus or based on an ability score. Maybe also create a feat that grants a feat bonus to the roll.
OR
Another mechanical idea I came up with as I typed this post was to simply make the sustain effect comparable to an At-Will power. So, a large effect occurs when you first summon/conjure something, but on subsequent rounds the 'power-level' of the effect is the same as other at-wills, and if it's a 'sustain standard' effect then it is effectively just replacing your use of a normal at-will power.
And it does to me. We've been over this. It's a personal preference thing. If it bugs you, don't think of it as summoning, think of it as...
Yup. That.
Really? Sustainable conjurations that you can use to attack? That only looks like one or two powers to me.
looks like any other at will + some other powers to me. The fluff is different, but the mechanics are the same.
Now, if you're making comments about 4th's system in general...
1.) I agree, it looks "like every other power." It's what happens when the game uses a uniform system.
2.) I disagree that it's "too much." A lot of people do. 4th's rule system is great because of what you can do inside the existing mechanics.
The above is my point, to me the system is too uniform and therefore would be better with some different mechanics.
It's a bigger deal when I'm not using hit points, and they can't be killed. Hence the adjustments above, and the further adjustments (and general overhaul) to follow this post.
True, the no hit point, can't be killed blockers are tougher, which is why I prefer ones that can be killed. To me blockers that have hps and can be killed/removed are easier to handle within the game mechanics, although yours (as of last look) are not really blockers they are just fields difficult terrain.
I've thought about how to handle summons/conjurations off an on for a while. One thought that occurred to me recently was an adaptation of the Saving Throw rules. Additional text something like this:
"...lasts until the end of your next turn (save allows sustain)" and then add what happens when you sustain.
One of the goals of 4e was to eliminate duration tracking, so there really isn't anything that lasts a set number of rounds. What the above does is sort of impose a limiting factor on how long you are able to sustain any single effect.
As for your class feature to increase duration, have them instead grant a bonus on the "save allows sustain" roll; either a set bonus or based on an ability score. Maybe also create a feat that grants a feat bonus to the roll.
I like! Good point on eliminating duration tracking. It's another one of those things that I've just taken for granted, until it's been pointed out. Someone else had suggested a save to sustain, but only in context of the creator taking damage. Your idea sounds like it would work better though.
So, how should I phrase it?
"Sustain Minor (Save): At the start of your turn, make a save. If successful, you can sustain this power. As a standard action, you can make another attack with this construction."
And then the class feature could be...
"Durable Constructor: When you make a save to sustain a construction, you may add your Wisdom modifier to the saving throw roll."
Interesting. It'll make humans some of the more viable constructor-shapers.
Another mechanical idea I came up with as I typed this post was to simply make the sustain effect comparable to an At-Will power. So, a large effect occurs when you first summon/conjure something, but on subsequent rounds the 'power-level' of the effect is the same as other at-wills, and if it's a 'sustain standard' effect then it is effectively just replacing your use of a normal at-will power.
It's actually pretty much the case already. I mean, the best you get is the 27th level encounter construction, which deals 2d8 damage and an effect as a standard, which would probably be lesser-than-or-equal-to your at-will power at that point. The area effect, too, is probably about equivalent to another at-will.
Daily powers are stronger, but they're supposed to be. The level 29 power though, I worry about. The damage is just... it seems really high.