| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1TheBringerJun 08, 2011 13:23:55 | Alright, first post here, let's go! I am pretty bad at balancing things, so yeah this is a PEACH thread cuz I probably desperately need all y'alls help! Yuan-Ti |
| #2Crimson_ConcertoJun 08, 2011 14:05:03 | Welcome to the wonderful world of home-brewing! ^_^ The first thing that will be very useful for you to learn about is the (PEACH) tag. PEACH is an acronym that stands for Please Examine And Critique Honestly. It's basically a short way of saying "Hey, this is a homebrew that I'd like opinions on!" without having that need to take up your whole topic title. For example, a thread like this could be named "Yuan-Ti (PEACH)" and we would all know exactly that you home-brewed a Yuan-Ti that you want opinions on. The second thing that you'll want to check out is the sticky at the top of this forum entitled "Fireclave's Guide to 4e Race Mechanic Creation". Fireclave and I actually have a few relatively minor disagreements about how races are to be properly constructed, but the guide is a fantastic start and gives you a great idea of what not to do. Third, you get better responses when you format your home-brew the same way that it's formatted in the book because it'll be presented in a way that people are more used to. And speaking of formatting, try not to copy-paste things from other word processors onto these forums because it can cause complications when trying to quote. The biggest example of this is with paragraphs. So without further ado, let's see what you have here... Yuan-Ti Formatting aside, all of this looks fine except for one thing, and that one thing is the bonus to damage with poison attacks. The reason that this may be problematic is because there are a large amount of classes and roles that just don't have any method of benefiting from the feature while there are other classes and roles that have no trouble at all abusing the feature. This sort of channeling of a race towards only certain specific classes and roles is called pigeon-holing, and it's generally frowned upon when it's done to such a degree. Slither(encounter) minor action Shift your movement speed, then make this attack: DEX, CHR, or WIS vs. Ref Range 10 1d4 + DEX, CHR, or WIS poison damage, the target is blinded until the end of your turn. 1) As a minor action, this power is definitely overpowered. However, I think that you might be able to get away with this as a move action with a couple of other modifications. 2) Attacks that cannot gain accessory (implement or weapon) bonuses to attack and damage need to have innate bonuses in order to stay useful at higher levels. Nowadays, it's also encouraged that racial attacks allow any ability score to attack and damage, to further prevent the racial pigeon-holing mentioned earlier. The result is that your power's attack should look like: "Attack: Highest ability modifier + 3 vs. Reflex (bonus improves to +6 at 11th level and to +9 at 21st level)". 3) Ranged attacks provoke opportunity attacks, so to keep this power useful for melee characters, I recommend making the range a close burst 5 targeting one creature in the burst. 4) Just to make sure, you do intend for this power only to blind an enemy until the end of your current turn, yes? Because that's actually perfectly fine, but the much more common "until the end of your next turn" would be totally overpowered for the blinded condition as an effect of a racial power. |
| #3TheBringerJun 08, 2011 16:59:53 | Oh, hey, a post! Thanks Crimson :D Yeah, I figured that there was an accepted way to format these things, but I was too rushed when posting this to figure it out and didn't have a book on hand, unfortunately. But yeah, I'll definitely get around to shaping this format up! Also, I don't wanna flood this place with several threads at once, so I'll add the PEACH tag but prolly will keep the title somewhat-vague since I might add Kuo-Toa and a Faery Dragon familiar thing I thought up a while ago. Like I said, I enjoy making the stuff, but really need help keepin' the things balanced :X Speakin of which, onto the actual race crit... The poison damage thing, yes I can see what you mean, that's pretty reasonable. I can pretty safely do away with that racial feature I guess. It does make the feat for being able to do poison damage a little pointless, but that isn't too important. I could maybe make the extra damage a feat, but there are already feats that boost poison (I mean they have weird requirements but whatever) So yeah I can do away with that to allow the race more class freedom. Oh ohhh man I can't believe I forgot about the power boost thing with racial attacks! I remeber seeing it on like the minotaur's thing but forgot while making this race! So okay I'll change it to any stat and give the scaling mod thingy. As for a minor action thing, this is the reason I need your guys' help xD I didn't know for sure if it was overpowered as a minor action at all, but I believe ya definitely so I'll change it to... yeah move sounds about right! The way this would work for melee is justified when its a minor action (you shift away, attack, then can use your move and attack to get back in melee) but with the change to movement I'll also take your suggestion on that to keep it fair for the melee yuan-tis. And yeah, it was current turn for the blinding. So... long story short I guess I'm taking all of your advice ahahaha! |
| #4rampantJun 09, 2011 2:37:00 | For the yuan ti: the damage on the power should probably scale with level as well toss another d4 on at levels 11 and 21. You could make the bonus poison damage thing another feat for the race. Is lowlight really necessary for the yuan ti? I mean 4e tries to keep a handle on LLV and DV for a reason, yuan-ti don't seem like good canidits for it. You could also probably up the poison resist to 5 + 1/2 level. Kuo toa really these guys deserve their own thread, don't worry about cluttering up the board no one minds as long as you're not just doing it to be a jerk those guys are deep dark water dudes, they could make a case for full darkvision, or maybe as a feat? Penalties are a big no in 4e races, so depth touched needs to go deep eyes needs to be tweaked or removed because piecing invisibility is pretty major Waterborne is utterly broken, first of all it grants proficiency with all superior spears which is too much in and of itself, but the net training feat is inappropriate for a racial feature because it pigeon holes the race into weapon classes. I would suggest proficiency with a small group of spears and a racial feats that build on that (including some goodies for net users). |
| #5TheBringerJun 09, 2011 15:03:28 | Oh hey awesome another reply! Thanks rampant! Really? I didn't know that there was a sensitivity to having low or darkvision! But, having it go on the Yuan-Ti isn't really a problem and yeah that would be fine to remove I suppose. Power and poison resist changes will also be made! Haha oh man Kuo-Toa! Yeah I prolly coulda thought these guys through more, huh? Guess I still don't know enough to make things not crazy overpowered! Full darkvision? Well okay that works. It's actually what I had in mind originally, but I hadn't seen darkvision at all on any of the other races so I thought maybe it was just a no-no for player races? But yeah in that case I'll go with that because it makes a lot of sense. And awww man no penalties? I figured that the two elemental resists might have balanced that (well not really balanced so much as made it an interesting trade-off) but if it's that much a breach in ettiquette I'd be happy to ditch it. Piercing invisibility is major? I believe/trust you on that, but is it alright if I ask why? Also doh I'm stupid that was meant to be only see invisible objects that have moved the previous round. (There is probably a better way to word that, but basically they can only see invisible things that move!) Would that be something reasonable, or would it still need more editing than that? Ahahahaha, maybe I shoulda checked what invisibility does in the first place ^^; As for the spears, crazy special spears with huge bonuses (I'm guessing that's what superior spears are) hadn't crossed my mind! So yeah, I'll definitely limit the range. I figured the net training wouldn't pigeon hole the race because it isn't a superior option to all weapons, and thus you wouldn't HAVE to use a net and it doesn't take up a feat slot (similar to how the two weapon fighting from that type of ranger doesn't) So... the net training thing I can kind of see as limiting, but could you maybe go deeper into that since one could always just not use nets, right? Like a striker prolly wouldn't want it I would think! |
| #6Crimson_ConcertoJun 09, 2011 15:11:29 | the damage on the power should probably scale with level as well toss another d4 on at levels 11 and 21. All very good advice. There's just one thing that I really disagree with: those guys are deep dark water dudes, they could make a case for full darkvision, or maybe as a feat? As a feat maybe, sure, but they definitely should not have it by default. Living in deep water is about as good of a reason for having Darkvision as living underground, which is to say that it's not enough anymore. The only PC races that have Darkvision have it because of specifically supernatural reasons tied to the core of their flavor, not simply because of the environment in which they live. EDIT: Additionally, the Kuo-Toa Will defense bonus should only apply to members of the race that select STR and not to those that select DEX. The ones that select DEX don't need it, only the ones that select STR do. I also have to say that I think that Slippery is way too powerful, and I don't really understand the thematic justification behind it to begin with. And why don't they have the Aquatic keyword? Just replace their ability to see invisible things with the Aquatic keyword. |
| #7rampantJun 09, 2011 15:26:42 | Feat works for DV As for the spears, there are 3 primary levels of weapon proficiency: simple weapons can generally be pick up by anyone and used fairly well these tend to be kinda meh weapons; military weapons are given out to classes that are trained to use them these are solid weapons with some basic featues; superior weapon proficiency generally needs to be be purchased piecemeal either with the weapon prof feat or certain special feats and class features these weapons are pretty potent and/or complex. In the case of the spear weapon group I especially worry about handing out free proficiency with the gouge, it's a 2d6 base damage weapon with brutal 1, nasty piece of work that. Limit it to a couple of specific spears. As for seeing through invisibility, it's a pretty sweet condition to have so being able to pierce it seems powerful, at least to me. What if the ability lets you pinpoint the position of an invisible creature that moves. It's still invisible but you know where it is. The problem with the net thing is that it is a great ability that can only be used by net wielders, it's sitting there taking up design space but only benefitting a small selection of character types. Racial abilities need to be theoretically appealing to every class, and role. Wizards don't have the stats to use nets for instance. Class features like your ranger example only need to be useful to members of that class and role. They have to pigeonhole a character, the race as a whole should be able to support members of any class or role without missing out on using racial abilities. |
| #8Crimson_ConcertoJun 09, 2011 15:27:17 | Really? I didn't know that there was a sensitivity to having low or darkvision! Yup. Back in 3.5, I think that in the PHB and MM, there were a total of 3 creatures with normal vision: Halfling, Human, and I think Lizardfolk or something. In 4E, this has been cut back so that not everybody and their mothers have Darkvision. Notice that there are now only two playable races with Darkvision, Drow and Shade, and both of their flavors are tied to supernatural darkness in an inseparable sense. And awww man no penalties? I figured that the two elemental resists might have balanced that (well not really balanced so much as made it an interesting trade-off) but if it's that much a breach in ettiquette I'd be happy to ditch it. Penalties are a no-no now exactly because they don't balance out ever. Construct a race with penalties and extra bonuses to counteract those penalties, and players will feel pigeon-holed into selecting characters that make maximum use of the bonuses while ignoring the penalties as much as possible, effectively resulting in an overpowered race. Piercing invisibility is major? I believe/trust you on that, but is it alright if I ask why? Also doh I'm stupid that was meant to be only see invisible objects that have moved the previous round. (There is probably a better way to word that, but basically they can only see invisible things that move!) Would that be something reasonable, or would it still need more editing than that? Ahahahaha, maybe I shoulda checked what invisibility does in the first place ^^; An invisible creature that has moved needed to make a stealth check opposed by your passive perception check anyway so that you wouldn't know where it was (an invisible creature that does not use stealth in suck a way still gives its location away to everybody by making noise because perception also includes listening). You could maybe give them a feature boosting their passive perception versus opposing stealth, but I still recommend you give priority to giving them the Aquatic keyword. I figured the net training wouldn't pigeon hole the race because it isn't a superior option to all weapons, and thus you wouldn't HAVE to use a net and it doesn't take up a feat slot (similar to how the two weapon fighting from that type of ranger doesn't) The point is that you're taking up design space that benefits some characters but not others. That's exactly the definition of pigeon-holing. If my race has been balanced with this bonus in mind but I then select to play a character that cannot use that bonus at all, then I'm effectively playing an underpowered version of my race. This is why racial features should be as universal as possible. |
| #9TheBringerJun 09, 2011 20:47:49 | Alright, thanks for the imput/answering my questions! And yeah, regarding nets, I see what you mean with the pigeon holing now, I was in a different mindset about what that meant! I was going to mention the minotaur's goring charge, but then I remembered that that was pretty bad and noticed that Crimson has (a pretty awesome) thing in his sig that changed that anyways haha! As for spears, what if I just limited it to martial and simple spears? That'd get rid of the crazy superior weapons. What I'm going for is similar to the eladrin's ability that makes them proficient in swords. Invisiblility seeing, I figure isn't too crucial to the flavoring of the race, and yeah aquatic can be added! As for slippery... at this point I think that is the only thing I disagree about xD (not the overpowered-ness, I think I'll change it to just a +2 bonus, just one higher than what a couple at-wills can give) One thing that really surprised me when I first learned about the dnd stuff was that your primary defense was not, in fact, defense! Rather than sponging damage with better equipment, you either got hit with it or you didn't! I figured that, sorta like how Kuo-Toa could secret the sorta sticky goo, they could be able to secret a filmy paste that protects them and makes attacks slip off or not penetrate. The effect ending on a failed save is basically when they can't keep up with making the stuff. That make it a bit more credible? xD If not, then their racial will probably be more of an attack related to the inherent madness inside Kuo-Toa's! EDIT: oh, also, do you think the Kuo-Toa would be fine with low light vision at least? While dwarves live underground with their torches and other light sources in cities, Kuo-Toa are a bit more monstrous. They adapted to their underdark aquatic habitat through physical changes and stuff, rather than technology. It's also let em keep something having to do with their crazy eye powers, while not having to muck about with neutralizing a powerful status enemies can have! |
| #10rampantJun 09, 2011 22:17:15 | 1.) When I said change the resistance I meant change it to 5 + 1/2 level, so that at level 30 the resistance is 20. Your set up is 5 per tier + 1/2 level for a total of resist 30 at level 30. 2.) Lowlight is fine for the frogs, i would suggest making dark vision a feat for them 3.) Slippery is kinda dull, consider some sort of mobility power? maybe a minor action slide that can also be triggered as an immediate response if someone tries to grab you? |
| #11TheBringerJun 10, 2011 21:08:48 | Oh okay! I'm guessing that's the regular thing then? Should the Kuo-Toa have that too? Did someone mention MADNESS related racial power? I think someone mentioned MADNESS racial power! (Complete with flavor text woo!) ((Yeah soon I think I'm going to spiff up these races a bit to be prettier to read and stuff)) Mad Surge (Encounter) The voices in your head demand destruction. You don't dare disappoint them. Free Action Personal Reroll an attack roll. Use the second roll, even if it’s lower. If the second roll's result is 10 or higher without modifiers, the attack deals 1d8 extra damage if it hits. If the second roll's result is less than 10 without modifiers, you are dazed until the end of your next turn. |
| #12rampantJun 10, 2011 21:35:15 | yeah that's the generally accepted formula for racial damage type resistances Is Mad surge right for kou toa I thought they were a fairly stolid bunch |
| #13TheBringerJun 11, 2011 1:22:39 | Nope! Right in the monster manual it talks about the inherent madness in Kuo-Toa! A lot of their deal has to do with Lovecraftian Old Ones in the deep and stuff like that. Even entire cities of Kuo-Toa have been wiped out when madness overtakes the population! :D So, flavor wise, it fits them perfectly |