Bahamut and Tiamat - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Bahamut and Tiamat

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
trd23
Oct 10, 2011 21:43:52 As I mentioned in a previous thread I am starting a Paragon level campaign soon which borrows heavily from Chris Perkins "Iomandra" setting.

While some of the citizens may worship other gods the two main gods in the setting are Bahamut and Tiamat.

My main goal is not to paint Bahamut as the "good" god and Tiamat as "evil" as I really want to avoid that sort of black and white distinction - I want the morality of the campaign to be a lot more ambiguous - where most decisions are firmly in the grey area.

As the campaign world is ruled by dragon overlords who worship both gods (though individuals may lean further towards one or the other) I want the gods to embody different qualities that dragons respect.

For each of the traits that one god represents I want the other to represent the opposite (or near opposite),

So for example lets say one of the traits Bahamut represents is Justice, then Tiamat will represent Trickery.

If Justice is applied too hard it can definitely lead to some evil behaviour, just like how Trickery can be used for good purposes.

I hope this sort of explains the feel I am going for - I want the gods to represent certain domains or traits - but the traits themselves can be used for good or evil means - and each of the traits is something that dragons would respect and utilise in their lives.

At the moment I currently have:

Bahamut - Nobility, Protection, Generosity, Justice
Tiamat - Tyranny, Destruction, Greed, Trickery

Greed may sound like a weird one - but without a certain amount of envy and desire, there would be no impetus for the dragons to improve and conquer islands and build their hoards.

Any ideas on traits or to flesh out the idea I have here would be much appreciated - feel free to throw anything out there - I am just brainstorming at the moment.

#2
TheForgottenCommand
Oct 10, 2011 22:22:22 If you really want to paint Bahamut and Tiamat in shades of grey with only tinges of of white and black, i think you need to focus on certain qualities. Just reading your ideas, i still get the feeling that Bahamut is the good guy and Tiamat still sounds like the jealous backstabber. You need to tone it down a little.

For Bahamut, justice seems the one to focus on, with nobility and protection riding shotgun. Laws should be firm and unrelenting without being harsh or cruel. Upholding the law and tradition should be paramount, even if it is merely baggage to "doing right". For a negative quality, zealous obedience, tradition,or something similar could cast him in a more oppresive light, even if it is good tyranny.

For Tiamat, focus on intelligent qualities. Dragons like not only strength, but intelligence. Cunning, subtlety, grace, and possibly indignation (rightful wrath). Her followers are fine with breaking the rules if they need to, and they are willing to embrace anger and self-preservation. But they do not go around with tons of plate armor blatantly stomping about yelling challenges that will only warn their enemies (like somebody's followers...*coughBahamut*cough...) They should look after themselves and be greedy and indulgant, but to a point.

To portray the gods in the right light, thier temples and followers should have both good and bad qualities. Tiamat may have a clergy that looks after its own, but they also are a major player in the town's economoy and their influence has stopped it from collapsing on multiple occasions. Bahamut's clergy may arrest criminals and patrol the streets, but don't even pretend to steal from someone in front of them, even if they are your best friend.

Thats just my thoughts though anyway...

Good luck with your campaign, hope this helps
#3
Neutronium_Dragon
Oct 11, 2011 7:49:50 Following up on the above, consider something along the lines of the Ophidian philosophy from the Ultima series. It was one of the first to break away from the old-style notion that "Order = Good under a different name and Chaos = evil under a different name" and presented both as forces that were innately positive but could become negative when taken to extremes (in absence of their counterpart). Balance was (again, this was a big break from tradition at the time) a matter of bringing those complementary opposites together into something greater rather than going for some notion of cosmic 'neutrality' between contradictory forces - in the case of this setting, Io presumably represented that ideal.

They won't map to Bahamut/Tiamat exactly, but the Ophidian concept can probably be used as a model. I'm terrible at formatting charts on these forums, so this is the best I can do...

Imbalanced Order Balance Chaos Imbalanced
Order Principle Principle Principle Chaos

Prejudice Ethicality Harmony Tolerance Anarchy

Apathy Discipline Dedication Enthusiasm Wantonness

Ruthlessness Logic Rationality Emotion Insanity
#4
Tequilasaurus
Oct 11, 2011 12:19:22 I'd kinda follow up with what ForgottenCommand was going with. Use words with less rigid connotations. "Greed" has some negative implications, and almost always sounds evil. "Ambition" sounds a lot more fair. The same for "Tyranny" and "Destruction". Try swapping those for less evil sounding words. Indignation and subtlety sounds like good ones TFC gave for Tiamat.

Bahamat's "Protection" could be vigilence, or watchfulness. Things that don't always necessarily translate to "Protective", but still have the same basic meaning.

Work on finding synonyms with less overt connotations, and you should have a good setup. A thesaurus should help.

#5
trd23
Oct 13, 2011 3:35:48 Thankyou once again for the feedback - please be brutal with the below.

The idea of the below is just to give a general feel for the two main gods of the setting - does the below achieve that?

My players are not the types that require a great deal of information and backstory (ie. I do not need to go into great lengths about how the religion interacts with the world and how the hierarchy of the churches are established) - all I want to achieve with the below is to give them a general vibe on what each of the gods represent and their feel.

Most citizens of the campaign setting worship each god equally as they both represent (or are suppose to represent) traits that all people can use and that most people (especially dragons) value.
They each have their own clerics and paladins and while there are rivalries between the two religions they are not diametrically opposed as they are in most settings.

Bahamut and Tiamat
In the early days of creation when the gods fought the primordials for ownership of the multiverse it is said that that the great primordial Erek-Hus, King of Terror faced Io, God of Dragons on a blasted continent half shattered from a century of conflict. The two met in ferocious battle that lasted 22 days and nights until Erek-Hus neared destruction. Filled with pride at bringing an end to the powerful primordial and gripped by greed at claiming his power for his own the Dragon God arrogantly played with his foe, taunting him with his folly at facing the most powerful deity ever known in single combat.

At this a vicious smile spread across the terrifying visage of the King of Terror as his children Ogremoch the Stone Tyrant and Imix the Eternal Flame burst forth from the broken crust of the forgotten world and launched an attack with ferocious abandon. While children were no match for the God of Dragons they provided their father with the opening he needed. As Io broughr draconic fury with claw and breath upon the two lesser primordials Erek-Hus readied himself. With his mountain sized adamantine great axe Shax, he split Io from head to tail, neatly cleaving the deity into two pieces. Erek-Hus and his children laughed, his voice jubilant thunder that resounded across the scarred face of the world. Before his laugh died away, the divine power released from Io formed two great dragons. Bahamut, a massive, long and sinuous dragon with platinum scales and Tiamat, a smaller dark dragon with five heads each screaming vengeance.

The children of Io turned upon the children of Erek-Hus laying Ogremoch and Imix low before turning their draconic might upon the slayer of their father. Before the blood red sun set that day the two godlings roared to the multiverse over the destroyed and mutilated bodies of the three primordials declaring their arrival and the coming of a new age of dragons.

Bahamut - The Platinum Dragon
Traits: Majesty, Honor, Justice, Wisdom, Pride

The followers of Bahamut belive in the majesty of leadership, bound by honor they serve the dragonlords in ensuring justice is served throughout Arkhosia. Wisdom is prized over intelligence and while pride is their wellspring of strength it is also their weakness as pride can easily lead to arrogance and their undoing.

Tiamat - The Dragon Queen
Traits: Dominion, Ambition, Cunning, Intelligence, Desire

The followers of Tiamat believe in the dominion over others, fueled by ambition they serve their dragonlords with cunning ensuring every plan to power realised. Intelligence is prized over wisdom and while desire is their driving force it is also their weakness as desire can easily lead to greed and their undoing.
#6
TheForgottenCommand
Oct 13, 2011 19:25:04 Honestly, sounds good to me. However, i would take Pride out. Pride should be an "unmentioned but everyones expects it" type. It does not sound like a quaility people want to go around preaching about. I would either leave it unspoken, since honor often means mainting a reputation, or exchange it with dignity or confidence/courage.

The dominion of others also seems a little harsh. I would switch it with power or leadership. Leadership often means controlling something without outrigtright preaching tyranny.

Other than that, good job.

Hope this helps.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 trd23 Oct 10, 2011 21:43:52	As I mentioned in a previous thread I am starting a Paragon level campaign soon which borrows heavily from Chris Perkins "Iomandra" setting. While some of the citizens may worship other gods the two main gods in the setting are Bahamut and Tiamat. My main goal is not to paint Bahamut as the "good" god and Tiamat as "evil" as I really want to avoid that sort of black and white distinction - I want the morality of the campaign to be a lot more ambiguous - where most decisions are firmly in the grey area. As the campaign world is ruled by dragon overlords who worship both gods (though individuals may lean further towards one or the other) I want the gods to embody different qualities that dragons respect. For each of the traits that one god represents I want the other to represent the opposite (or near opposite), So for example lets say one of the traits Bahamut represents is Justice, then Tiamat will represent Trickery. If Justice is applied too hard it can definitely lead to some evil behaviour, just like how Trickery can be used for good purposes. I hope this sort of explains the feel I am going for - I want the gods to represent certain domains or traits - but the traits themselves can be used for good or evil means - and each of the traits is something that dragons would respect and utilise in their lives. At the moment I currently have: Bahamut - Nobility, Protection, Generosity, Justice Tiamat - Tyranny, Destruction, Greed, Trickery Greed may sound like a weird one - but without a certain amount of envy and desire, there would be no impetus for the dragons to improve and conquer islands and build their hoards. Any ideas on traits or to flesh out the idea I have here would be much appreciated - feel free to throw anything out there - I am just brainstorming at the moment.
#2 TheForgottenCommand Oct 10, 2011 22:22:22	If you really want to paint Bahamut and Tiamat in shades of grey with only tinges of of white and black, i think you need to focus on certain qualities. Just reading your ideas, i still get the feeling that Bahamut is the good guy and Tiamat still sounds like the jealous backstabber. You need to tone it down a little. For Bahamut, justice seems the one to focus on, with nobility and protection riding shotgun. Laws should be firm and unrelenting without being harsh or cruel. Upholding the law and tradition should be paramount, even if it is merely baggage to "doing right". For a negative quality, zealous obedience, tradition,or something similar could cast him in a more oppresive light, even if it is good tyranny. For Tiamat, focus on intelligent qualities. Dragons like not only strength, but intelligence. Cunning, subtlety, grace, and possibly indignation (rightful wrath). Her followers are fine with breaking the rules if they need to, and they are willing to embrace anger and self-preservation. But they do not go around with tons of plate armor blatantly stomping about yelling challenges that will only warn their enemies (like somebody's followers...coughBahamutcough...) They should look after themselves and be greedy and indulgant, but to a point. To portray the gods in the right light, thier temples and followers should have both good and bad qualities. Tiamat may have a clergy that looks after its own, but they also are a major player in the town's economoy and their influence has stopped it from collapsing on multiple occasions. Bahamut's clergy may arrest criminals and patrol the streets, but don't even pretend to steal from someone in front of them, even if they are your best friend. Thats just my thoughts though anyway... Good luck with your campaign, hope this helps
#3 Neutronium_Dragon Oct 11, 2011 7:49:50	Following up on the above, consider something along the lines of the Ophidian philosophy from the Ultima series. It was one of the first to break away from the old-style notion that "Order = Good under a different name and Chaos = evil under a different name" and presented both as forces that were innately positive but could become negative when taken to extremes (in absence of their counterpart). Balance was (again, this was a big break from tradition at the time) a matter of bringing those complementary opposites together into something greater rather than going for some notion of cosmic 'neutrality' between contradictory forces - in the case of this setting, Io presumably represented that ideal. They won't map to Bahamut/Tiamat exactly, but the Ophidian concept can probably be used as a model. I'm terrible at formatting charts on these forums, so this is the best I can do... Imbalanced Order Balance Chaos Imbalanced Order Principle Principle Principle Chaos Prejudice Ethicality Harmony Tolerance Anarchy Apathy Discipline Dedication Enthusiasm Wantonness Ruthlessness Logic Rationality Emotion Insanity
#4 Tequilasaurus Oct 11, 2011 12:19:22	I'd kinda follow up with what ForgottenCommand was going with. Use words with less rigid connotations. "Greed" has some negative implications, and almost always sounds evil. "Ambition" sounds a lot more fair. The same for "Tyranny" and "Destruction". Try swapping those for less evil sounding words. Indignation and subtlety sounds like good ones TFC gave for Tiamat. Bahamat's "Protection" could be vigilence, or watchfulness. Things that don't always necessarily translate to "Protective", but still have the same basic meaning. Work on finding synonyms with less overt connotations, and you should have a good setup. A thesaurus should help.
#5 trd23 Oct 13, 2011 3:35:48	Thankyou once again for the feedback - please be brutal with the below. The idea of the below is just to give a general feel for the two main gods of the setting - does the below achieve that? My players are not the types that require a great deal of information and backstory (ie. I do not need to go into great lengths about how the religion interacts with the world and how the hierarchy of the churches are established) - all I want to achieve with the below is to give them a general vibe on what each of the gods represent and their feel. Most citizens of the campaign setting worship each god equally as they both represent (or are suppose to represent) traits that all people can use and that most people (especially dragons) value. They each have their own clerics and paladins and while there are rivalries between the two religions they are not diametrically opposed as they are in most settings. Bahamut and Tiamat In the early days of creation when the gods fought the primordials for ownership of the multiverse it is said that that the great primordial Erek-Hus, King of Terror faced Io, God of Dragons on a blasted continent half shattered from a century of conflict. The two met in ferocious battle that lasted 22 days and nights until Erek-Hus neared destruction. Filled with pride at bringing an end to the powerful primordial and gripped by greed at claiming his power for his own the Dragon God arrogantly played with his foe, taunting him with his folly at facing the most powerful deity ever known in single combat. At this a vicious smile spread across the terrifying visage of the King of Terror as his children Ogremoch the Stone Tyrant and Imix the Eternal Flame burst forth from the broken crust of the forgotten world and launched an attack with ferocious abandon. While children were no match for the God of Dragons they provided their father with the opening he needed. As Io broughr draconic fury with claw and breath upon the two lesser primordials Erek-Hus readied himself. With his mountain sized adamantine great axe Shax, he split Io from head to tail, neatly cleaving the deity into two pieces. Erek-Hus and his children laughed, his voice jubilant thunder that resounded across the scarred face of the world. Before his laugh died away, the divine power released from Io formed two great dragons. Bahamut, a massive, long and sinuous dragon with platinum scales and Tiamat, a smaller dark dragon with five heads each screaming vengeance. The children of Io turned upon the children of Erek-Hus laying Ogremoch and Imix low before turning their draconic might upon the slayer of their father. Before the blood red sun set that day the two godlings roared to the multiverse over the destroyed and mutilated bodies of the three primordials declaring their arrival and the coming of a new age of dragons. Bahamut - The Platinum Dragon Traits: Majesty, Honor, Justice, Wisdom, Pride The followers of Bahamut belive in the majesty of leadership, bound by honor they serve the dragonlords in ensuring justice is served throughout Arkhosia. Wisdom is prized over intelligence and while pride is their wellspring of strength it is also their weakness as pride can easily lead to arrogance and their undoing. Tiamat - The Dragon Queen Traits: Dominion, Ambition, Cunning, Intelligence, Desire The followers of Tiamat believe in the dominion over others, fueled by ambition they serve their dragonlords with cunning ensuring every plan to power realised. Intelligence is prized over wisdom and while desire is their driving force it is also their weakness as desire can easily lead to greed and their undoing.
#6 TheForgottenCommand Oct 13, 2011 19:25:04	Honestly, sounds good to me. However, i would take Pride out. Pride should be an "unmentioned but everyones expects it" type. It does not sound like a quaility people want to go around preaching about. I would either leave it unspoken, since honor often means mainting a reputation, or exchange it with dignity or confidence/courage. The dominion of others also seems a little harsh. I would switch it with power or leadership. Leadership often means controlling something without outrigtright preaching tyranny. Other than that, good job. Hope this helps.