Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Xeviat-DM Sep 12, 2008 2:40:17	Monsters scale at +1 to most everything per level. Players scale at +1/2 per level, but they gain ability score bonuses (which amount to +1 per tier and another +1 at epic if they started at even numbers), magic items (which amount to +2 per tier), and feats (which can be used to improve AC and Defenses). Even with all these extras, it is difficult to keep PC stats up with Monster stats since Monster's scale faster. To help with AC, the 4E designers tossed in an extra +1 AC in high paragon tier and another +1 AC in high epic tier; these are the Masterwork bonuses (heavy armor adds +3 at each to make up for the lack of ability score adjustments that light armor characters get for their AC). But attack and defense don't get these bonuses. Defenses at least have a paragon feat to boost them (by +2 too, which is pretty good), but Attack lacks even feats. I began running an epic game starting at level 20 and, hopefully, running to level 30. I've noticed that the player attacks are quite low (average is +24) compared to monster AC; they miss more than 50% of the time. I find it quite interesting that the designers buffed AC but forgot to buff the others. So, for my games, I will be adding a +1 to hit and damage bonus for +4 weapons, and a +2 to hit and damage bonus for +6 weapons (call it an increase to the proficiency bonus). I will also be adding a +1 to defense bonus to +4 amulets/cloaks, and a +2 bonus to +6 amulets/cloaks. I feel this will help equalize the differences a bit. What does everyone else think? Has anyone else noticed this disparity?
#2 Xeviat-DM Sep 12, 2008 2:48:31	A quick bit of math showing how PC's abilities scale from 1 to 30. I'm discounting starting ability scores, just looking at the progression. AC (light) +15 from level +6 from enhancement +2 from masterwork +4 from ability adjustments ------- Equals: +27, meaning a player needs to find a way to make up for +3 AC though feats or other abilities. AC (heavy) +15 from level +6 from enhancement +6 from masterwork ------- Equals: +27; needs to make up +3 (showing that heavy and light armor scale evenly, even if they don't start out the same). Attack and Defense (primary and secondary stats) +15 from level +6 from enhancement +4 from ability ------- Equals: +25; needs to make up +5. Defense (tertiary stats) +15 from level +6 from enhancement +1 from ability (the automatic boost at 11 and 21) -------- Equals: +22; needs to make up +8!!! ------------ I think I figured it out. If ability scores increase by +2 to 2 at 4, 8, 14, 18, 24, and 28, and by +2 at 11 and 21, characters will be gaining +8 to their Attack and primary Defenses instead of +4. That will nearly make up for the missing bonuses, and would make masterwork armor unnecessary (except for Heavy Armor). Player scores would then scale by 29 points in 30 levels, leaving them only 1 point behind. Tertiary defenses would be 7 behind still, but that might be an acceptable loss. With this, though, the Armor and Shield specialization feats may need to be altered or removed, or else player stats could get too high.
#3 tequila_sunrise Sep 12, 2008 9:30:26	Yeah, I've noticed the disparity. Right now I'm giving the designers the benefit of the doubt that the disparity somehow balances out because I haven't played anything higher than 2nd level yet. The best theory I've heard so far is that epic PCs have lots of powers to make their less-often hits count for more and that epic PCs have lots of ways to get bonuses to attacks. I'm running a couple play tests with five 30th level PCs vs. Big Red, but so far it's not looking promising. Big Red creamed the PCs during the first play test. If the disparity doesn't end up working out, I'm going to adjust stats on the monster side rather than the PC side. Just because PCs are already complicated enough and I try not to add house rules that my players have to worry about. If you look at monster stats, especially at dragon attacks and defenses, you'll notice that they're already absurdly inconsistent so changing them won't be a big deal. TS
#4 Cpt_Micha Sep 12, 2008 9:57:56	Another good reason to do it the way Tequila there is doing is your pcs never have to know. Anytime you start -changing- core rules rather than adding options, it's almost always better to do it on the Dm's side as the Dm will most often knows how he or she wants to interpret the change, and there's a great deal less chance of confusion at the table.
#5 thecasualoblivion Sep 12, 2008 10:09:04	I created a bunch of Epic characters just to try things out. I'll post attack bonuses and defenses for reference: Dwarf Cleric--Weapon+31, Implement+30, AC 47, Fort 39, Ref 34, Will 42 Tiefling Warlock--Implement +29, AC 43, Fort 38, Ref 38, Will 40 Dragonborn Fighter--Weapon +33, AC 47, Fort 41, Ref 37, Will 37 Human Wizard--Implement +29, AC 43, Fort 37, Ref 40, Will 39 Halfling Rogue--Weapon +32, AC 44, Fort 35, Ref 42, Will 37 Eladrin Warlord--Weapon +32, AC 47, Fort 40, Ref 42, Will 38 Half Elf Paladin--Weapon +32, Implement +30, AC 48, Fort 40, Ref 37, Will 41 Elf Ranger--Scimitar +31, Bow +32, AC 47, Fort 40, Ref 42, Will 35 Looking at the monster manual and monsters 27-30, the attack bonuses seem a little low vs. AC, and fairly decent vs. other defenses. AC seems a little on the high side actually, while generally the defenses seem rather low. One thing that does strike you is that PCs are dealing a good deal more damage than the monsters when they hit. +17 to damage per hit and up seems pretty standard.
#6 tequila_sunrise Sep 12, 2008 15:27:01	One thing that does strike you is that PCs are dealing a good deal more damage than the monsters when they hit. +17 to damage per hit and up seems pretty standard. PCs might do more damage than monsters, but monsters have an obscene amount of HP. I did some calculations, and monster at-wills, recharges and encounter powers take a significantly higher percentage of PC HP than PC at-wills and encounter powers take away from monsters. Daily powers approximately break even with monster recharge and encounter powers. TS
#7 aluman Sep 12, 2008 17:08:14	PCs might do more damage than monsters, but monsters have an obscene amount of HP. Actually Monsters really just have healing surges spent figured in, Heroes have 10+ healing surges, Monsters have 1 per tier if my memory is working right, and even then HAVE to have a way to trigger them. Heroes have Second Wind. Most defender and leader classes have ways of triggering their own healing surges and those of other characters. Monsters generally don't. Essentially the healing surge for PC's is a resource to manage, and a way to add excitement without actually running the risk of PC death.
#8 Xeviat-DM Sep 12, 2008 17:54:02	Yeah, monsters have more HP to make up for their general lack of healing. But I've never found monster damage to be low, especially when monsters gang up on someone. But then again, I manage to mix monster types rather well (advanced bone-devil, war devil, and legion devils made for a very very interesting fight with plenty of damage going around). This will up player damage by +4, nothing too huge (that's power attack at paragon level). It will up attack and defenses, though, and that's what's most important. Heavy armor is still left at +27, but since Dex/Int will be scaling faster in Heroic level, I might be able to toss in a Masterwork +3 bonus at +2, or just increase the masterwork bonus to +4 at +4 and +6.
#9 Xeviat-DM Sep 12, 2008 21:27:37	I entirely forgot that adjusting the stats will not increase heavy armor AC, thus meaning someone who starts with a 16 Int or Dex and increases it at every chance will end up with the same AC as a plate wearer. This means that the masterwork bonus from heavy armor needs to be improved to keep them comprable; if it were bumped up to +4 at +4 and +6 it would become even in the end, but there would be many levels where hide armor would be better. An option I started to look at was doubling heavy armor enhancement bonuses (which is the same extra +6 that masterwork was giving) and then give those using heavy armor +1 AC at Paragon and an additional +1 at Epic. That allows heavy armor to reach the same +29 over their 1st level bonus (without spending feats) that light armor reaches.
#10 tequila_sunrise Sep 13, 2008 10:23:22	Essentially the healing surge for PC's is a resource to manage, and a way to add excitement without actually running the risk of PC death. That is so, but it's a serious disadvantage for PCs. Yeah they have a lot of HP in reserve, but they need to sacrifice an attack (a standard action) to get a one-time boost and then they need the aid of powers and items to use more of their reserves. Meanwhile monsters have all their HP already accounted for. I entirely forgot that adjusting the stats will not increase heavy armor AC, thus meaning someone who starts with a 16 Int or Dex and increases it at every chance will end up with the same AC as a plate wearer. This means that the masterwork bonus from heavy armor needs to be improved to keep them comprable; if it were bumped up to +4 at +4 and +6 it would become even in the end, but there would be many levels where hide armor would be better. Wait, how do you figure? Light armor wearers get: +5 level +1.5 ability +1 armor +2 enhancement for a total of +9.5 AC per tier While heavy armor wearers get: +5 level +3 armor +2 enhancement for a total of +10 AC per tier So even a PC who starts at level 1 with a +5 Dex or Int and hide armor will have an equal AC than a PC with plate armor. Yeah, at high heroic the first PC will get one more point of AC than the second, but I don't think it requires all these house rules to fix. If it bothers you, simply break up masterwork armor into smaller AC bonuses. Or hand out masterwork armors before the recommended 16th level, which I think is a bogus recommendation anyway. I consider the first set of masterwork armor to be 11th level items while the second set is 21st level items. So if you want the heavy armor PCs to be always ahead of the light armor PCs, give the paladin a suit of "battle plate" armor (+9 AC) during the high heroic tier. Anyway, I just think that giving PCs more and more bonuses isn't necessary. TS
#11 aluman Sep 13, 2008 13:31:39	That is so, but it's a serious disadvantage for PCs. Yeah they have a lot of HP in reserve, but they need to sacrifice an attack (a standard action) to get a one-time boost and then they need the aid of powers and items to use more of their reserves. Meanwhile monsters have all their HP already accounted for. Actually no. All leaders have a 'spend healing surge get healing surge +1d6 hp' minor action. healing potions heal off surges for X hp as a minor action, fighters have powers that trigger healing surges from hits (I think pallys do too books aren't with me). The only thing that is disadvantageous is that players have something to track the DM doesn't, and you know what? I perfer it that way. If the DM had to track healing surges for his monsters it would bog down the game like 3E did. Anyway, I just think that giving PCs more and more bonuses isn't necessary. TS This I agree fully with you. The game is balanced as is, in Epic levels fights are tough, but you know what? They should be.
#12 Xeviat-DM Sep 13, 2008 20:18:38	This is the reason why more bonuses are needed. I'll use a Plate wearing fighter as my example. 1st Level, right out of the gate: +8 Armor (spent 1 feat) +2 Shield ------- 20 AC Monster average attack at 1st level (level+5): +6 This means the monster needs to roll a 14 to hit, meaning a 30% chance to hit. 30th level, maximum AC (that I'm aware of): +14 Armor (Godplate) +2 Shield +1 (or 2) from feats (plate specialization, shield specialization; I'm not aware if these two stack) +6 Enhancement +15 Level -------- 48 (or 49) Monster Attack at level 30: +35 If shield-specialization stacks, then the fighter has managed to keep things even at level 30 as they were at level 1. But the fighter has also HAD to spend 3 feats on keeping this even. Now, AC has this opportunity. Attack will be several points behind, because it does not have feats to boost it, or masterwork bonuses to boost it. Masterwork exists to balance AC against monster attacks, but there is no such balance for player attacks vs. monster AC. Please, trust me, there are far more rounds of entire misses going on in my 20th level game as my 3rd level game, except for when players use action points (getting the Warlord's Int bonus to hit is very nice). But then again, I might be the only person that remembers "feats should be nice but not required"