Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 stargazer_dragon Jun 18, 2011 18:21:45	So with the exception of the barbarian whos powers r stronger in place of other real striker feature what would be possible balence issues if I were to allowa defender to choose a stiker class powers or any other such cross role power.  I mean removing class features all powers are suposed to be balenced by lvl so I am assuming over all it should be balenced specialy since multiclass feats allow you to do this was just wondering what balence issues would resoult from basicaly allowing it on a more gran featless level. More so I guess I want to know so when I make new class I know if a refluffed power from a difrent class/role would still remain balenced over all.
#2 rampant Jun 18, 2011 19:07:59	For starters what's balanced for a divine leader at level 7, might be imbalanced in the hands of an arcane striker at level 7. Classes balance their powers differently, some have better utility, encounter, or daily powers. Wizards for instance have amazing powers because their features suck. Imagine letting a controller with decent features like the invoker or a striker like the sorcerer getting free access to wiz-powers. not pretty The feats balance things out because of two reasons, one they restrict you to one at a time of each major power category (encounter, daily, and utility), secondly they're a cost associated with what is presumably an advantageous power swap.
#3 stargazer_dragon Jun 18, 2011 21:08:56	hybrids can mix the powers prety well, perhaps allow power swapping but include the rider that class features only work for normal class powers then for multi class feats make them allow a single feature to be used with powers that class normaly gets. would this more or less fix the balence issues since it is very similar to the hyrbid rules?
#4 rampant Jun 18, 2011 22:12:06	the balance issues only exist if you remove the feat cost, so don't remove the feat cost as far as making a class each power on a class list has to be evaluated based on the class whose list it is on can you steal powers from other classes? Yes, but unless you know what class your stealing it for it's hard to judge whether it's appropriate Say you're building a class like the barbarian or the wizard where most of your offensive punch is tied up in the powers themselves, it would not be a good idea to filch powers from classes like warlock or rogue whose offensive abilities are based on class features.  This would be underpowered. The reverse would be over powered.
#5 stargazer_dragon Jun 19, 2011 0:52:22	what I was saying was say take a ranger filching a barbarian power, the ranger quary simply would not apply to the barbarian power which should balence it, Same example swapped, A barbarian grabbing a ranger power, allow a feat that allows you to use quarry for the ranger power. Basicaly limit the class features to that classes power. Of cource when creating a class a lot of this changes I guess since the powers were made with class features in mind though warlock ranger and classes with very similar features should be easy to steal bas epower stats from right?
#6 rampant Jun 19, 2011 2:09:52	In theory, however the ranger and warlock are a bit of an awkward example because their gear and stats don't mesh well. A power obtained using the multi-class method is balanced by the feat investiture. A power obtained through hybrid is limited in order to avoid double-strikery and similar shinaniggins.  I don't see that there's a problem. I brought up the Avengarian as a problem in your point buy class system post because it seems like it would allow someone to snag the heavy duty powers of the barb, and toss a more traditional striker feature on top of them, but allow them to do it for all their powers without spending feats or worrying about stat-gear match, which would be unbalanced.
#7 stargazer_dragon Jun 19, 2011 2:28:02	In theory, however the ranger and warlock are a bit of an awkward example because their gear and stats don't mesh well. A power obtained using the multi-class method is balanced by the feat investiture. A power obtained through hybrid is limited in order to avoid double-strikery and similar shinaniggins.  I don't see that there's a problem. I brought up the Avengarian as a problem in your point buy class system post because it seems like it would allow someone to snag the heavy duty powers of the barb, and toss a more traditional striker feature on top of them, but allow them to do it for all their powers without spending feats or worrying about stat-gear match, which would be unbalanced. In my other thread I got a lot to figure out before I can get a good working sysetm, though allowing a char to freely choose powers from other classes could easaly avoid class features causing for overpowered combo such as averger and barbarian by appling the same restriction hybrids use to all class featurs, namely class features only apply to powers normaly allowed by that class, though DM could choose to allow the features to work for powers of a class with similar feature such as ranger quary and warlock curse. For addressing underpower combo like a barbarian selecting a avenger power, since barbarian has no class featur to make the power usefull, allow a feat to be taken that allows the barbarian to use the class feature with poweres selected from that class could work, basicaly would be like a difrent way of handling multiclass feats I guess Would allow for multiclassing with a less feat intensive requirment. So for no feats you could have the powers of a difrent class but those powers would benifit from no class features, For one feat you could gain a single class feature of a class however that feature would only effect powers selected from that class.  Over all I was assuming this would be balenced since the main factor that seams to unbalence class powers when gained by a difrent class is the class features or am I missing something else?
#8 rampant Jun 19, 2011 2:34:18	... I'm sorry I don't understand what you're driving at here. I think you just described hyrbrid classing through feats, but I'm not sure.
#9 stargazer_dragon Jun 19, 2011 3:04:08	Srry wordings not always the best will try to explain my thoughts better. Basicaly a varient of multi classing, Kinda soemwhere betwean the current multiclass options and the hybrid option You would select a main class You could freely take a power from any class desired without needing to spend any feats but the powers that were not normaly allowed by your class would not benifit from your class features. (basicaly same condition as hybrid) So a avenger who grabbed a a barb power could not use that power with his oath of emnity class feature same with a ranger could not use a non class power with quary. Which I beleive prevents any class from selecting a power that would be overpowered If a char wanted to get a class feature to use with a non class power they selected then they could use a feat to gain it. So a multiclass cleric feat might allow the extra healing to be added to any cleric power the char used. a multiclass warlock feat would allow curse to be used with any warlock power. One of the points I am unsure of is would at will powers be unbalenced by this set up. I am prety sure encounter and daily powers would be balenced as long as you could not use class features for powers that were not intended to benifit form those features. Alternativly a little more restrictive but yet still more versatile then current multiclassing coulde be perhaps making a multiclass line of feats like some of the following just realy ruff ideas though. Multiclass cleric: Allows the char to exchange powers for cleric powers of the same type and class (lvl 1 encounter for a lvl 1 encount ect) Also grants the char healers lore class feature -healers lore can only be used with cleric powers- char gains prof with holy symbles Multiclass Cleric Healing word: Requires multiclass cleric feat- The char is able to use Healing word 2 timers per day but not more then once per encounter Multiclass cleric improved healing word: Required Multiclass Cleric Healing word - The char can use healing word as a encounter power but may only use it once per encounter Multiclass cleric channel devinity: Requires multiclass cleric  - The char may use channel devinity once per day. Multiclass cleric improved chanel devinty: Requires Multiclass cleric channel devinity- The char may use chanel devinity once per encounter. Multiclass Cleric Cleric skill: Requires multiclass cleric - The char gains training in a skill from the cleric skill list, Those were just some possible type of feats off the top of my head. Again the idea was to find a medium soemwhere betwean hybrid and current multiclass option.  Hybrid takes a lot away from the main class feature wise and multiclassing does not allow you to get enough of the features and stuff even if you get all the multiclass feats and the paragon multiclass path you still end up with much less then a hybrid would. I guess yea in the end the idea is kinda like terning hybrid into a line of feats, Kinda like the new dragon mag did with vampire class. Could further expand the idea to be used for a racial feat line similar to vampire class line to further expand upon racial abilities. but thats a after thought. for now will focus on if a ballenced for of hybrid could be made via feats. is still a evolvoing idea
#10 slobo777a Jun 19, 2011 3:37:58	For addressing underpower combo like a barbarian selecting a avenger power, since barbarian has no class featur to make the power usefull, allow a feat to be taken that allows the barbarian to use the class feature with poweres selected from that class could work, basicaly would be like a difrent way of handling multiclass feats I guess The concern is also the other way around: The Avenger, who doesn't need any Barbarian fetaures to make very good use of Barbarian powers, could just take Barbarian powers, and get double striker advantage. So, to implement your scheme, you first have to house-rule *all* classes so that their features work more like the Hybrid classes, and cannot be used on cross-purchased powers. Or you have to add a lot of conditions to the cross-trained powers - but as some classes have a lot of features (like Fighter's +1 to hit) that don't grant role-specific bonuses, then I think this is a no-go. You will need to figure out what to do with standard multi-classing, Half-elves and Bards, you'll need to adjust those abilities so that they don't completely suffer the same restrictions, unless you want to completely replace these build options with your new "more free choice" system. You will need to figure out what to do with Psionic Augmentable powers. I might suggest for instance if one is taken as an At-Will "swap" from a non-Psionic base class, then there are no Power Points. If taken as an Encounter swap, 1 or 2 Power points, depending on what the original class would have got at that level as additional Power Points (divided by number of At-Wills the class gets at that level). Finally, you'll need to re-assess what is reasonable to grant from Hybrid class features. A quick glance shows that most just get the role-specific feature that matches the class powers, but you should probably check that no class gains something unreasonable to grant with a feat. When you look at the effort, and by the time you get things balanced, how many rules they would be, the standard Multi-class system, and the Hybrid Classes both seem quite sensible mechanics.
#11 slobo777a Jun 19, 2011 3:45:53	Srry wordings not always the best will try to explain my thoughts better. Basicaly a varient of multi classing, Kinda soemwhere betwean the current multiclass options and the hybrid option Could I suggest rather than add a third variant of mutli-classing, pick one of the MC variants that is closest to what you'd like to see, and figure out what you'd like to *add* to it to achieve your desired system. From your description so far, it would seem that improving standard Multi-classing (carefully, to retain balance), might be a good path to investigate?
#12 stargazer_dragon Jun 19, 2011 4:02:22	Would add the rider to powers gained from the feat "non class powers do not gain the benifit of class features"     Could easaly use hybrid to create the feats, could use almost word for word what they use. For more powerfull features like Healing word could require multiple feats before getting it up to the power offered as a hybrid. A lot like the new multiclass feats for vampire that dragon mag uses. As for standard multiclassing feats I would simply remove them replaceing them with the more versatile feats the current ones are mostly garbage anyhows, On a slightly difrent note where could I find more info about themes was thinking of making themes for expanded racial powers
#13 stargazer_dragon Jun 19, 2011 4:07:58	Srry wordings not always the best will try to explain my thoughts better. Basicaly a varient of multi classing, Kinda soemwhere betwean the current multiclass options and the hybrid option Could I suggest rather than add a third variant of mutli-classing, pick one of the MC variants that is closest to what you'd like to see, and figure out what you'd like to *add* to it to achieve your desired system. From your description so far, it would seem that improving standard Multi-classing (carefully, to retain balance), might be a good path to investigate? The current idea was to get rid of the curent multiclass feats and allow a form of hybriding through multiclass Feats, soon as I get a real feal for it I will make a new thread and link to this one for now m still tring to flesh out a soilid idea before making the feats in detail. So far I was thinking 1 feat to allow a player to swap out up to half there powers with a difrent class. Then a aditional feat per hybrid class feature gained.  though some features might take 2 feats or even 3 feats before it reaches ful effect that hybrid allows bassed on what people think would be the most balenced. *edit - curent multiclass feats take 1 for a barely usable powers then 1 for swapping a encounter power 1 for swapping a daily power then multiclass paragon path for a at will basicaly you goto invest a ton of feats and your paragon path simply to multiclass and swap a few powers is to much to invest for little gain realy.
#14 stargazer_dragon Jun 19, 2011 4:25:04	So going to end the thread here and start a new one, the original idea has changed a lot and evolved to where I am almost ready to actualy start putting things together, figure might be better for getting feadback if I was to make new thread and close this one, thanks for help and feadback and hopefully you guys will continue to give me the great feadback in the new thread. New thread can be found here community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758....