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Battles take too long

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
BronleyLaerchenheim1
Jan 18, 2009 8:23:23 As much as I like the D4 rules I feel (and also my group does) that battles takes much too long. This is meant with respect to playing time not game time: a 4-6 round fight with a group of 6 or 7 players might take 1 hour or more to resolve.

To resolve fights much faster I will try out the following house rule and let you know how it worked: All damage will double. Healing surges will heal double amount of hitpoints.
#2
teacher
Jan 18, 2009 8:35:10 Interesting houserule. My concern would be that a solid hit from some of the PCs or monsters could knock someone out of the combat on the first round. The campaign I am currently DMing has just hit 6th level. Some of the monsters have powers that have been doing 3d10+8. That is just one critter. Double a good damage roll and you are looking at a possible 76 points of damage! Don't think I'd want to be on the recieving end of that!

Be interesting to see how it works out for you though.

I was having a similar issue myself. Initially it was simply everyone getting used to the rules. However things didn't really speed up after that. It was mostly that people were not ready when their turn came up. My "house rule" is that when your turn comes you have 1 minute or so to get your stuff done. If you are dilly-dallying then your guy automatically delays. We are good friends so I even allow them to pre-roll attacks and damage if they want to. They know blue-lightning will instantly hit anyone caught cheating! :D
#3
powercat
Jan 18, 2009 9:16:05 Seven players is a pretty big group, so I would expect the battles to take a long time, and not just because more people have to go. With that large of a group, some of the players probably lose focus between their turns.

I would be hesitant to double damage and healing. It would make the risk of something going terribly wrong higher, and it shifts the balance of power toward minions. They still take one hit to kill, but now they do double damage.

But I'm a solution-oriented person, so here are some alternative ideas:

1. Consider shrinking the size of your group. A DM plus seven players is just a monster. The big risk with this is hurting someone's feelings, so if your group is a tight-knit circle, skip this.

2. Ask your players to pay closer attention to the fight, so they can be quicker on their turns. There is plenty of time for horsing around between fights.

3. Institute a time-limit on a player's turn. I would suggest one minute per player. You miss the time limit, your character just stands there. If seven players take one-minute turns, and the DM takes two minutes, that gives you 63 minutes for a six-round fight. Of course, some players will take less, and that's where you'll see the reduction. I would suggest doing this on a trial basis before making it an official table rule.
#4
davisbros
Jan 18, 2009 9:24:30 I agree with the posts above. Before last session, my group of four took over an hour for every encounter. Now that I've instituted a rule that you have to begin your action within ten seconds of the start of your turn, though, everything has gone a lot quicker. Most of the players now act immediately because they know they have to get their action ready before it's actually their turn.
#5
RUMPLESTIX
Jan 18, 2009 9:25:23 The game is designed for 5 players. So, not only are there more turns to go through each round with seven players, the strength and number of the enemy should be upped to match. So, that means more enemy attacks also. Putting the two together should add a lot of time even if the number of rounds remains the same.
#6
CaptnMorgrim
Jan 18, 2009 12:20:35
I agree with the posts above. Before last session, my group of four took over an hour for every encounter. Now that I've instituted a rule that you have to begin your action within ten seconds of the start of your turn, though, everything has gone a lot quicker. Most of the players now act immediately because they know they have to get their action ready before it's actually their turn.

Seconded! The same goes for my group, we took about an hour for our first few fights, but now with the timelimit of 10 secs for decision making we push through a couple of encounters during our last session. We ended our last session with 3 milestones (at level 3), 4 action points (and most of us spent none of them during the fight). That aside, our DM pushed us through the adventure (Siege of Bodrin's Watch, and we never even got close to the keep and the siege, still running errands for the Dwarfs) because he wanted to install a sense of urgency. No rest for the wicked, it seems, our group includes a Drow, a Gnoll and a Goblin, and even of the 2 more traditional PCs, my gnome accountant is of a more shady sort than usual...
#7
mmoran5554
Jan 18, 2009 12:43:01 I highly agree with all the comments made. Battles take far too long, even in old or new versions of D&D. I have been DMing for years and I highly suggest setting a time of no more than 15 seconds for decision making. It speeds up the game and adds more realism and suspense. Players will complain at first, but then they will be happy when the game moves faster and more things get done in a session.
#8
Scottomir
Jan 19, 2009 11:05:31 Let me cast another vote for the "1 hour is typical" assessment. Like many other folks, at first I presumed this was due to lack of familiarity with the rules, but we haven't noticed much of a speed-up after playing for several months now. Since in 4E monsters and damage scale up in toughness as the PCs scale up in power, I think on-level encounters for around 5 PCs will pretty much always take around 1 hour each.

I'm not sure much of anything will speed this up. With 4E, you take the good with the bad. My impression is that 4E fights are, on average, longer than fights in earlier editions. However, they tend to be more fun, interesting, and variable. But as for your house rule, I share the hunch that the likely consequence will be PCs dying faster before they have a chance to use their double-value healing. But let us know how your idea turns out in execution.
#9
jetzine
Jan 19, 2009 13:49:10 2 Things:

1. Get some story into your fights and some fight into your stories. Blur the lines a little. I'm not assuming you haven't done already, but if you treat the fights as things seamlessly integrated into the narrative of your adventure, they'll feel less like cumbersome blocks of encounters that are interrupting your adventure. And they will with seven people. Combat should never feel like an interruption.

2. Let's split up gang. Seriously. 7 people is a shitload of people. Even from a story perspective that's an extremely awkward little hoard of adventurers to be moving around together all the time. If I were DMing, only the very most epic battles would include everybody in the party. Most battles would include 3, 4, or 5 of any of the party members at a time, with the rest off in another encounter, allowing me to do cut scenes (which I'm a big fan of). I like the idea of having lots of different combinations of characters fighting from adventure. Hell, you could even have three different encounters going on at once. This can get suspenseful, especially if one encounter depends on the success of another. Where you cut can add suspense if somebody's about to pull out their final move, or about to bite the dust, or something is hinging on a roll. Imagine six of the party members fighting against immeasurable odds while the wizard is off playing chess with death or some badass demon, who offers his services to the party if the wizard can out-strategize him. Just some stuff to kick around.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 BronleyLaerchenheim1 Jan 18, 2009 8:23:23	As much as I like the D4 rules I feel (and also my group does) that battles takes much too long. This is meant with respect to playing time not game time: a 4-6 round fight with a group of 6 or 7 players might take 1 hour or more to resolve. To resolve fights much faster I will try out the following house rule and let you know how it worked: All damage will double. Healing surges will heal double amount of hitpoints.
#2 teacher Jan 18, 2009 8:35:10	Interesting houserule. My concern would be that a solid hit from some of the PCs or monsters could knock someone out of the combat on the first round. The campaign I am currently DMing has just hit 6th level. Some of the monsters have powers that have been doing 3d10+8. That is just one critter. Double a good damage roll and you are looking at a possible 76 points of damage! Don't think I'd want to be on the recieving end of that! Be interesting to see how it works out for you though. I was having a similar issue myself. Initially it was simply everyone getting used to the rules. However things didn't really speed up after that. It was mostly that people were not ready when their turn came up. My "house rule" is that when your turn comes you have 1 minute or so to get your stuff done. If you are dilly-dallying then your guy automatically delays. We are good friends so I even allow them to pre-roll attacks and damage if they want to. They know blue-lightning will instantly hit anyone caught cheating! :D
#3 powercat Jan 18, 2009 9:16:05	Seven players is a pretty big group, so I would expect the battles to take a long time, and not just because more people have to go. With that large of a group, some of the players probably lose focus between their turns. I would be hesitant to double damage and healing. It would make the risk of something going terribly wrong higher, and it shifts the balance of power toward minions. They still take one hit to kill, but now they do double damage. But I'm a solution-oriented person, so here are some alternative ideas: 1. Consider shrinking the size of your group. A DM plus seven players is just a monster. The big risk with this is hurting someone's feelings, so if your group is a tight-knit circle, skip this. 2. Ask your players to pay closer attention to the fight, so they can be quicker on their turns. There is plenty of time for horsing around between fights. 3. Institute a time-limit on a player's turn. I would suggest one minute per player. You miss the time limit, your character just stands there. If seven players take one-minute turns, and the DM takes two minutes, that gives you 63 minutes for a six-round fight. Of course, some players will take less, and that's where you'll see the reduction. I would suggest doing this on a trial basis before making it an official table rule.
#4 davisbros Jan 18, 2009 9:24:30	I agree with the posts above. Before last session, my group of four took over an hour for every encounter. Now that I've instituted a rule that you have to begin your action within ten seconds of the start of your turn, though, everything has gone a lot quicker. Most of the players now act immediately because they know they have to get their action ready before it's actually their turn.
#5 RUMPLESTIX Jan 18, 2009 9:25:23	The game is designed for 5 players. So, not only are there more turns to go through each round with seven players, the strength and number of the enemy should be upped to match. So, that means more enemy attacks also. Putting the two together should add a lot of time even if the number of rounds remains the same.
#6 CaptnMorgrim Jan 18, 2009 12:20:35	I agree with the posts above. Before last session, my group of four took over an hour for every encounter. Now that I've instituted a rule that you have to begin your action within ten seconds of the start of your turn, though, everything has gone a lot quicker. Most of the players now act immediately because they know they have to get their action ready before it's actually their turn. Seconded! The same goes for my group, we took about an hour for our first few fights, but now with the timelimit of 10 secs for decision making we push through a couple of encounters during our last session. We ended our last session with 3 milestones (at level 3), 4 action points (and most of us spent none of them during the fight). That aside, our DM pushed us through the adventure (Siege of Bodrin's Watch, and we never even got close to the keep and the siege, still running errands for the Dwarfs) because he wanted to install a sense of urgency. No rest for the wicked, it seems, our group includes a Drow, a Gnoll and a Goblin, and even of the 2 more traditional PCs, my gnome accountant is of a more shady sort than usual...
#7 mmoran5554 Jan 18, 2009 12:43:01	I highly agree with all the comments made. Battles take far too long, even in old or new versions of D&D. I have been DMing for years and I highly suggest setting a time of no more than 15 seconds for decision making. It speeds up the game and adds more realism and suspense. Players will complain at first, but then they will be happy when the game moves faster and more things get done in a session.
#8 Scottomir Jan 19, 2009 11:05:31	Let me cast another vote for the "1 hour is typical" assessment. Like many other folks, at first I presumed this was due to lack of familiarity with the rules, but we haven't noticed much of a speed-up after playing for several months now. Since in 4E monsters and damage scale up in toughness as the PCs scale up in power, I think on-level encounters for around 5 PCs will pretty much always take around 1 hour each. I'm not sure much of anything will speed this up. With 4E, you take the good with the bad. My impression is that 4E fights are, on average, longer than fights in earlier editions. However, they tend to be more fun, interesting, and variable. But as for your house rule, I share the hunch that the likely consequence will be PCs dying faster before they have a chance to use their double-value healing. But let us know how your idea turns out in execution.
#9 jetzine Jan 19, 2009 13:49:10	2 Things: 1. Get some story into your fights and some fight into your stories. Blur the lines a little. I'm not assuming you haven't done already, but if you treat the fights as things seamlessly integrated into the narrative of your adventure, they'll feel less like cumbersome blocks of encounters that are interrupting your adventure. And they will with seven people. Combat should never feel like an interruption. 2. Let's split up gang. Seriously. 7 people is a shitload of people. Even from a story perspective that's an extremely awkward little hoard of adventurers to be moving around together all the time. If I were DMing, only the very most epic battles would include everybody in the party. Most battles would include 3, 4, or 5 of any of the party members at a time, with the rest off in another encounter, allowing me to do cut scenes (which I'm a big fan of). I like the idea of having lots of different combinations of characters fighting from adventure. Hell, you could even have three different encounters going on at once. This can get suspenseful, especially if one encounter depends on the success of another. Where you cut can add suspense if somebody's about to pull out their final move, or about to bite the dust, or something is hinging on a roll. Imagine six of the party members fighting against immeasurable odds while the wizard is off playing chess with death or some badass demon, who offers his services to the party if the wizard can out-strategize him. Just some stuff to kick around.