| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1lord_karsusOct 01, 2008 20:50:20 | -Somewhere along the line, someone in my circle of players and DMs "invented" a house rule where, if you had over ten ranks of Knowledge: Nature, you could consult the Monster Manual, when fighting a monster. This was to simulate characters knowing specifics about monsters, while the players of those characters might not. -Now, I recently implemented this in my game, augmenting it by the character needing to have a physical bestiary. I noticed quickly, however, that the player who owns the bestiary (Druid), has numerous ranks in Knowledge: Nature, and as a result, quickly identifies the weaknesses and strengths of creatures that I send against them. I've been using creatures not in the MM (his bestiary) to make up for this for the last couple of sessions, but I'm looking for any input that can smooth the system. -I was thinking retooling the entire system, having the player actually need to keep track of things in his/her bestiary, charging him/her for buying new information to put into it, and things like that. Ideas? |
| #2ff6shadowOct 01, 2008 20:53:39 | I think charging to add new creatures to the book would be helpful. Additionally, it might more time to consult the book than it would to just list facts off the top of your head, so in battle time could be a factor as well. |
| #3lord_karsusOct 01, 2008 21:20:59 | I think charging to add new creatures to the book would be helpful. Additionally, it might more time to consult the book than it would to just list facts off the top of your head, so in battle time could be a factor as well. -I'd rather have the player just look in the book, as opposed to me telling him/her things. That way, I can't be held at fault if I mistake something, or leave something out. And, that way, I'll also be able to get away with "mutated" creatures (such as Kobolds that emanate Dead-Magic Zones, that I've used before in the past), without being accused of withholding information. The pause that it brings for the players to look up things in the books, I don't really mind. I run a small group, so. -How much would you recommend I charge per monster entry. I was thinking the services of a sage would be about 50-100 GP per monster. And, of course, the player will have to keep track of the entries in his book on a new sheet of paper. That allows him/her some versatility in what he/she wants in his book (I want to specialize in Dragons!) as well. |
| #4ff6shadowOct 01, 2008 21:23:21 | I think the amount charged should probably be based on the rarity of the creature. Maybe 200-250 per CR/Level, with a bonus 50% charge in the creature is considered particuarly rare. Also, I had a typo. I didn't mean you list the facts, I meant the character. The knowledge check is probably a free of swift action, but checking the book might be a standard action. Something like that. |
| #5lord_karsusOct 01, 2008 21:33:37 | I think the amount charged should probably be based on the rarity of the creature. Maybe 200-250 per CR/Level, with a bonus 50% charge in the creature is considered particuarly rare. -Oh, I like that. I like that a great deal. I don't think the player who is using the "old" system will like that too much, but I like it a great deal. Also, I had a typo. I didn't mean you list the facts, I meant the character. The knowledge check is probably a free of swift action, but checking the book might be a standard action. Something like that. -The way I've been handling it, the character doesn't actually take out the book when making the check. It's assumed that he reads the book, and retains the information within it. The Knowledge: Nature check is to identify the monster- another part I might have to revise, because of things like extraplanar creatures- and then the character is assumed to remember the information from reading the book. I've ruled it a swift action, yes. |
| #6ff6shadowOct 01, 2008 21:45:07 | Okay, that makes sense then. They are in the book so he can memorize them during down time. Although the option to use a standard or full round action to check the book when your knowledge check fails would be a cool option. And glad you like the pricing. |
| #7lord_karsusOct 01, 2008 21:50:01 | Okay, that makes sense then. They are in the book so he can memorize them during down time. Although the option to use a standard or full round action to check the book when your knowledge check fails would be a cool option. -Sounds like something that can easily be implemented. A full round , I'd make it. Gotta take it out, flip through the pages, find the picture that matches what the monster is that you're fighting...In theory, that'd take more than a round, but there's no reason to over complicate things. -Shadow, thanks for the suggestions, by the way. If anyone else has suggestions, please, still share them. |
| #8ff6shadowOct 01, 2008 22:02:03 | No problem. Always like offering advice. Tends to convince people to look over your own things when you post them. |
| #9elven_swordsmenOct 02, 2008 7:26:12 | I don't generally like being a bubble-burster, but 4e already has rules to cover monster knowledge. If you read through the skills chapter, you'll notice that several skills have monster knowledge uses attached to them. There's also a table at the beginning for what DCs to use for identifying monsters, knowing their powers, and knowing their weaknesses/resistances. Here's the list of Knowledge skills and the corresponding monster types they can offer information about: Arcana: elemental, fey, shadow Dungeoneering: aberrant Nature: natural Religion: immortal, undead The way the monster types are distributed, any intellectual-type character can help in the identification of monsters. Just remember that "natural" type covers all monstrous humanoids, beasts, dragons, and even oozes, so even though it looks like the druid/ranger got shortchanged, he really didn't. I know it would sublate your house rule, but the official rules we have offer what you're trying to in a much more efficient and simplistic way. Whenever the party encounters a new monster, someone in the party with training in the relevant skill will be able to tell you what it is, then they can roll (only once, no retries, though multiple trained characters offers multiple rolls) to see what else they may know about it. It's simple, it's quick, and it offers your players a chance to get a tactical advantage in some battles. Cheers, Kyle |
| #10lord_karsusOct 02, 2008 9:37:24 | I don't generally like being a bubble-burster, but 4e already has rules to cover monster knowledge. -I'm not playing 4e. That said, that'll work for the problem of using Knowledge: Nature to identify things like Undead, or Extraplanar creatures.
-Something like that...I'll have to actually look at the Monster Manual and match subtypes to skills that would make sense. |
| #11elven_swordsmenOct 05, 2008 17:35:35 | -I'm not playing 4e. That said, that'll work for the problem of using Knowledge: Nature to identify things like Undead, or Extraplanar creatures. Oh...I somehow didn't realize that this section of the forums wasn't 4e specific. It needn't work much differently in 3.5; that list you've got there looks ok except I would definitely put aberrations in dungeoneering also, since the vast majority of them are encountered underground in cave/dungeon type settings (which I believe is why they're covered under Dungeoneering in 4e). In other news, I feel like people should note what edition the house rule is for in the OP. Perhaps you did and I just didn't notice. *shrug* Cheers, Kyle |
| #12ff6shadowOct 05, 2008 18:08:15 | I always used a this list in 3.5. As far as I can tell, 4th didn't really change much as far as knowledge works. Knowledge: Nature- 'Natural' creatures, Surface races, giants. Knowledge: Religion- Extraplanar Creatures, Undead Knowledge: Planes- Extraplanar Creatures Knowledge: Arcana- Golems, Dragons Knowledge: Dungeoneering- Oozes, Aberrations, Underdark specific natural creatures. |
| #13lord_karsusOct 06, 2008 10:37:48 | -This is the "Bestiary V.1" that I have written up, pending other suggestions here, and from my players: Bestiary The Bestiary is a book that contains valuable information about various creatures that can be encountered all across the multiverse. Information contained within bestiaries is extremely detailed, listing the weaknesses of creatures, the strengths of creatures, the abilities of various creatures, and other kinds of information. Because it takes a knowledgeable sage to compile the information in a single entry in a bestiary, costs are moderate. Most sages charge 200 GP per CR of the creature, with prices rising by 25% if the creature is rare, and even 50% if the creature is very rare (DM’s Disgression). Likewise, if a creature is common, the price is dropped by 25%, and if the creature is very common, it is dropped by 50 (DM’s Disgression). The character with a bestiary is assumed to read and study it during his/her spare time, and as a result, when combat begins, the player may make a roll without having to take out the bestiary. As a swift action, the character may make a Knowledge check to identify a monster. The DC = 10 + CR (+ 1 to 5 if the creature is considered rare, and –1 to 5 if the creature is considered common [DM’s Disgression]). If the Knowledge check succeeds, the character knows what the creature is, by name. If the creature is in the character’s bestiary, the player may freely consort the D&D book in which the write-up of this monster is contained. If the Knowledge check fails, the character does not know what the creature is. He/she may retry to identify it during his/her next subsequent action. Skills needed to identify creatures… Knowledge: Arcana Aberrations Constructs Dragons Magical Beasts Outsiders Shapechangers Undead Knowledge: Dungeoneering Aberrations Animals Humanoids Oozes Plants Vermin Knowledge: Geography Animals Beasts Dragons Giants Humanoids Monstrous Humanoids Plants Vermin Knowledge: Nature Animals Beasts Dragons Fey Giants Humanoids Magical Beasts Monstrous Humanoids Plants Vermin Knowledge: Religion Elementals Outsiders Undead Knowledge: The Planes Dragons Elementals Fey Outsiders |
| #14lord_karsusOct 06, 2008 21:34:19 | -After discussing with my players, we encountered a "new" problem: How to price creatures with scaling CRs. For example, Dragons run the gamut of CRs, from hatchlings to Great Wyrms. |
| #15ff6shadowOct 06, 2008 21:51:06 | Good point. I'd say, for dragons at least, the Mature Adult category. One, it is half way through it's life, rounded up. Second, by mature adult, every dragon I can think of has developed the majority of their really important abilities like damage reduction. After that it is mostly spell-like abilities, improved breath damage, and spellcasting increases. |
| #16lord_karsusOct 06, 2008 22:23:14 | -Yeah, makes sense. |