Better Multiclassing - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Better Multiclassing

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
knishiuchi
Jul 18, 2009 1:44:05 I love the multiclass feats. I love the mutliclass classes like spiked chain and poison specialists.

I hate the fact that to properly multiclass you need to spend 3 feats to choose 3 powers that are no better--and often worse--than what you would get in a your original class.

The way I see it, one feat should be enough to get your foot in the door. The entry feats are all fantastic, giving you skill training and a nice bonus. But advancing shouldn't take you three feats. Instead, I think one feat that gives you access to swap your powers is more than enough.

So, scrap Novice, Acolyte, and Adept Power and replace them with something like

Multiclass Power
Prerequisite: Class-specific multiclass feat, 4th level

You may swap one encounter attack power with one of multiclass. At level 8, you may swap one utility power with one of multiclass. At level 10, you may swap one daily attack power with one of multiclass.
#2
Hippolyte
Jul 18, 2009 15:55:54 I agree completely.

I tried making a "Friar" using multiclassing rules, but I soon found out that although I was gaining a mix of powers roughly (very roughly) approximating the fluff of a friar, I was missing out on the normal benefits of feats.

I took the Avenger class and multi-classed to cleric for the Healing Word. Unfortunately, all the clerical encounter healing powers require strength to hit, so I might have to wait until 8th level to get the clerical utility Cure Light Wounds. Avengers already have to invest in Wisdom plus either Dexterity or Intelligence. Furthermore, healing powers generally use Charisma for a bnus to the amount healed.

As you can see there are enough problems creating a friar under the existing rules without paying a feat tax every time I want a healing prayer from the clerical class.

As you say, I was only swapping out powers, not gaining anything extra, while the other characters gained impressive new additions to their potency.
#3
Namagem
Jul 18, 2009 17:44:37 One thing that people often get confused about (I know I did) is that the novice, acolyte, and adept power feats let you retrain more than 1 power. Make sure you incorporate that in your multiclass feat.

And hippolyte: At level 8, why not take Cure Serious Wounds, instead? It's a level 6 utility.
#4
ff6shadow
Jul 18, 2009 19:37:08 Simple. Abandon your censure. If you want the cleric melee powers, go Wisdom/Strength Avenger MCed into Cleric.

Multi-classing requires that you either pick classes that synergize (same secondary and/or primary stats) or that you be willing to sacrifice a bit of your classes secondary stats to make the new stuff, which is probably making you more versatile (Avenger with healing), useful.

As for requiring so many feats, if you take them all, you either wanted three powers from your other class (in which case your paying the cost for them) or your paragon multiclassing, which has even further benefits.
#5
Hippolyte
Jul 18, 2009 22:55:55 Hmm... now I am thinking, how about a two-weapon ranger (strength and wisdom) dabbling in clerical prayers. I could say (fluff-wise) that the two weapons are the friar's staff, since double swords et cetera are already treated in this manner. (The staff-fighting style of which I am thinking involves holding the staff in the centre and hitting with either end, and sometimes both ends in quick succession, in whirling strikes.)

I think I would want to swap out the Hunter's Quarry for the avenger's Armour of Faith however: more in keeping with a friar. But then again so many of a ranger's powers use the quarry ...
#6
Stuntman
Jul 19, 2009 2:06:52 I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish here. First you say that it is useless to swap powers since those powers are worse than from your original class. Then you make a feat so that players can swap 3 powers for powers worse than from your original class.
#7
knishiuchi
Jul 19, 2009 3:02:39 Not useless. Just highly disadvantageous. The powers aren't any worse than the ones from your original class. The problem is that you are spending 3 feats to swap them. It's an excessive price
#8
garner_adam
Jul 19, 2009 6:11:21 Yeah the opportunity cost of losing all those feats for the swap is just unbelievable so we did some thing about it in our house rules.

Multiclass feats: The Novice, Acolyte, and Adept multiclass feats will now improve the Initiate granted ability.
reason: Previous multiclass swap feats entailed an extremely high opportunity cost. (Roughly an entire feat)
Defenders-> One extra use of initiate ability per encounter. (Maximum of four times per encounter.)
Leaders-> +3 cumulative extra healing/damage granted to the initiate ability. (Max +9 with Novice, Acolyte and Adept +18 paragon +27 epic)
Strikers-> +1 cumulative extra damage on initiate ability. (Max +3 with Novice, Acolyte, and Adept- +6 paragon +9 epic)
Controllers-> +1 cumulative to hit on initiate ability. (Max +3 with Novice, Acolyte, and Adept)

You'll note that for those who deeply invest in multiclassing with a defender this really let's them actually take on the role cause they can mark up to four times a fight.
#9
Namagem
Jul 20, 2009 17:38:13 That's actually a really good way to do it. It makes it worth it to go in further than a dabble.
#10
garner_adam
Jul 20, 2009 22:06:28
That's actually a really good way to do it. It makes it worth it to go in further than a dabble.

Hey thanks! But I haven't seen how it would affect classes from the PHB2 so if you decide to use this bear that in mind.
#11
Chimerasame
Jul 20, 2009 23:34:55 I like it, but the question in my mind is--what's the advantage of being just a single-class character if it's so easy to multiclass? A couple extra feats...

I've been musing over the idea of having some class-specialization feats for each class, that make it so you can't multiclass, but are also stronger than typical feats (as much as multiclass feats are, at least.)
#12
Stuntman
Jul 21, 2009 0:02:41
I like it, but the question in my mind is--what's the advantage of being just a single-class character if it's so easy to multiclass? A couple extra feats...

Exactly. Multiclassing should not be so attractive that there is no reason not to.

I've been musing over the idea of having some class-specialization feats for each class, that make it so you can't multiclass, but are also stronger than typical feats (as much as multiclass feats are, at least.)

Interesting idea. If you make multiclassing better, you also make single classing better to keep both options balanced. You probably have to then make hybrid characters better as well.
#13
garner_adam
Jul 21, 2009 16:28:47
Exactly. Multiclassing should not be so attractive that there is no reason not to. /QUOTE]

Yeah with the above mentioned buff to multiclassing it was quickly realized that multiclass feats weren't just good they were probably better the additional clause we added is that you can't take a multiclass from your same archetype. This way single class characters are going to shine in their archetype. Multiclass characters will appear to be merging two archetypes.
#14
zebastian
Jul 21, 2009 17:38:57 I would prefer the "power swap" to instead be "power choice", to be determined at time of use (utility powers would need some extra guidelines as they range from at will to daily). The total number of powers one could use between relevant rests would not change. The added flexibility would offset the harsh feat tax penalty while leaving the multi-classer less proficient at their main class compared to one who used all their feats to improve a single class.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 knishiuchi Jul 18, 2009 1:44:05	I love the multiclass feats. I love the mutliclass classes like spiked chain and poison specialists. I hate the fact that to properly multiclass you need to spend 3 feats to choose 3 powers that are no better--and often worse--than what you would get in a your original class. The way I see it, one feat should be enough to get your foot in the door. The entry feats are all fantastic, giving you skill training and a nice bonus. But advancing shouldn't take you three feats. Instead, I think one feat that gives you access to swap your powers is more than enough. So, scrap Novice, Acolyte, and Adept Power and replace them with something like Multiclass Power Prerequisite: Class-specific multiclass feat, 4th level You may swap one encounter attack power with one of multiclass. At level 8, you may swap one utility power with one of multiclass. At level 10, you may swap one daily attack power with one of multiclass.
#2 Hippolyte Jul 18, 2009 15:55:54	I agree completely. I tried making a "Friar" using multiclassing rules, but I soon found out that although I was gaining a mix of powers roughly (very roughly) approximating the fluff of a friar, I was missing out on the normal benefits of feats. I took the Avenger class and multi-classed to cleric for the Healing Word. Unfortunately, all the clerical encounter healing powers require strength to hit, so I might have to wait until 8th level to get the clerical utility Cure Light Wounds. Avengers already have to invest in Wisdom plus either Dexterity or Intelligence. Furthermore, healing powers generally use Charisma for a bnus to the amount healed. As you can see there are enough problems creating a friar under the existing rules without paying a feat tax every time I want a healing prayer from the clerical class. As you say, I was only swapping out powers, not gaining anything extra, while the other characters gained impressive new additions to their potency.
#3 Namagem Jul 18, 2009 17:44:37	One thing that people often get confused about (I know I did) is that the novice, acolyte, and adept power feats let you retrain more than 1 power. Make sure you incorporate that in your multiclass feat. And hippolyte: At level 8, why not take Cure Serious Wounds, instead? It's a level 6 utility.
#4 ff6shadow Jul 18, 2009 19:37:08	Simple. Abandon your censure. If you want the cleric melee powers, go Wisdom/Strength Avenger MCed into Cleric. Multi-classing requires that you either pick classes that synergize (same secondary and/or primary stats) or that you be willing to sacrifice a bit of your classes secondary stats to make the new stuff, which is probably making you more versatile (Avenger with healing), useful. As for requiring so many feats, if you take them all, you either wanted three powers from your other class (in which case your paying the cost for them) or your paragon multiclassing, which has even further benefits.
#5 Hippolyte Jul 18, 2009 22:55:55	Hmm... now I am thinking, how about a two-weapon ranger (strength and wisdom) dabbling in clerical prayers. I could say (fluff-wise) that the two weapons are the friar's staff, since double swords et cetera are already treated in this manner. (The staff-fighting style of which I am thinking involves holding the staff in the centre and hitting with either end, and sometimes both ends in quick succession, in whirling strikes.) I think I would want to swap out the Hunter's Quarry for the avenger's Armour of Faith however: more in keeping with a friar. But then again so many of a ranger's powers use the quarry ...
#6 Stuntman Jul 19, 2009 2:06:52	I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish here. First you say that it is useless to swap powers since those powers are worse than from your original class. Then you make a feat so that players can swap 3 powers for powers worse than from your original class.
#7 knishiuchi Jul 19, 2009 3:02:39	Not useless. Just highly disadvantageous. The powers aren't any worse than the ones from your original class. The problem is that you are spending 3 feats to swap them. It's an excessive price
#8 garner_adam Jul 19, 2009 6:11:21	Yeah the opportunity cost of losing all those feats for the swap is just unbelievable so we did some thing about it in our house rules. Multiclass feats: The Novice, Acolyte, and Adept multiclass feats will now improve the Initiate granted ability. reason: Previous multiclass swap feats entailed an extremely high opportunity cost. (Roughly an entire feat) Defenders-> One extra use of initiate ability per encounter. (Maximum of four times per encounter.) Leaders-> +3 cumulative extra healing/damage granted to the initiate ability. (Max +9 with Novice, Acolyte and Adept +18 paragon +27 epic) Strikers-> +1 cumulative extra damage on initiate ability. (Max +3 with Novice, Acolyte, and Adept- +6 paragon +9 epic) Controllers-> +1 cumulative to hit on initiate ability. (Max +3 with Novice, Acolyte, and Adept) You'll note that for those who deeply invest in multiclassing with a defender this really let's them actually take on the role cause they can mark up to four times a fight.
#9 Namagem Jul 20, 2009 17:38:13	That's actually a really good way to do it. It makes it worth it to go in further than a dabble.
#10 garner_adam Jul 20, 2009 22:06:28	That's actually a really good way to do it. It makes it worth it to go in further than a dabble. Hey thanks! But I haven't seen how it would affect classes from the PHB2 so if you decide to use this bear that in mind.
#11 Chimerasame Jul 20, 2009 23:34:55	I like it, but the question in my mind is--what's the advantage of being just a single-class character if it's so easy to multiclass? A couple extra feats... I've been musing over the idea of having some class-specialization feats for each class, that make it so you can't multiclass, but are also stronger than typical feats (as much as multiclass feats are, at least.)
#12 Stuntman Jul 21, 2009 0:02:41	I like it, but the question in my mind is--what's the advantage of being just a single-class character if it's so easy to multiclass? A couple extra feats... Exactly. Multiclassing should not be so attractive that there is no reason not to. I've been musing over the idea of having some class-specialization feats for each class, that make it so you can't multiclass, but are also stronger than typical feats (as much as multiclass feats are, at least.) Interesting idea. If you make multiclassing better, you also make single classing better to keep both options balanced. You probably have to then make hybrid characters better as well.
#13 garner_adam Jul 21, 2009 16:28:47	Exactly. Multiclassing should not be so attractive that there is no reason not to. /QUOTE] Yeah with the above mentioned buff to multiclassing it was quickly realized that multiclass feats weren't just good they were probably better the additional clause we added is that you can't take a multiclass from your same archetype. This way single class characters are going to shine in their archetype. Multiclass characters will appear to be merging two archetypes.
#14 zebastian Jul 21, 2009 17:38:57	I would prefer the "power swap" to instead be "power choice", to be determined at time of use (utility powers would need some extra guidelines as they range from at will to daily). The total number of powers one could use between relevant rests would not change. The added flexibility would offset the harsh feat tax penalty while leaving the multi-classer less proficient at their main class compared to one who used all their feats to improve a single class.