Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 urpriest Jun 15, 2010 21:46:53	Bow-Fu Tier: Heroic Prerequisites: Dex 13 You can use any bow you are proficient with that lacks the small property as a quarterstaff. You can use any bow you are proficient with that has the small property as a club. The intent of this feat is to give an interesting and flavorful melee attack to dedicatedly ranged characters, and to allow some level of limited ranged/melee hybridization. Some largely unintended consequences are that it lets any staff-implement class use bows as implements, lets staff and club enchantments appear on bows, and lets ranged characters benefit from feats like Staff Fighting and Hafted Defense. While these consequences are unintended I do not believe any of them are particularly game-breaking. Thoughts? Should it be phrased differently?
#2 mplindustries Jun 15, 2010 23:06:59	Some largely unintended consequences are that it lets any staff-implement class use bows as implements This is not true.  All magic staffs are magic quarterstaves, but not all magic quarterstaves are magic staves.  A wizard, for example, could use his +2 Staff of Ruin for his implement powers and use it in melee as if it were a +2 Magic Quarterstaff.  However, he could not take a +2 Vicious Quarterstaff and use that with his Implement powers. A monk or assassin could, sure, but they can already use bows as an implement. lets staff and club enchantments appear on bows Again, not true.  Just because you can treat bows as quarterstaves or clubs does not suddenly make the item into a quarterstaff or club. You could attempt to argue that if you could treat it as a quarterstaff, then if you personally did the enchantment, it should work.  But then as soon as you put the bow down, it's invalid, since out of your hands, it's a bow and definitely not a staff. and lets ranged characters benefit from feats like Staff Fighting and Hafted Defense. This part does affect things.  I agree that the feat price on such a set up is high enough that I don't see it as problematic.
#3 urpriest Jun 15, 2010 23:13:50	Some largely unintended consequences are that it lets any staff-implement class use bows as implements This is not true.  All magic staffs are magic quarterstaves, but not all magic quarterstaves are magic staves.  A wizard, for example, could use his +2 Staff of Ruin for his implement powers and use it in melee as if it were a +2 Magic Quarterstaff.  However, he could not take a +2 Vicious Quarterstaff and use that with his Implement powers. False, this has been done with Frost and the like (weapon-only enchants) for a long time. lets staff and club enchantments appear on bows Again, not true.  Just because you can treat bows as quarterstaves or clubs does not suddenly make the item into a quarterstaff or club. You could attempt to argue that if you could treat it as a quarterstaff, then if you personally did the enchantment, it should work.  But then as soon as you put the bow down, it's invalid, since out of your hands, it's a bow and definitely not a staff. While silly for exactly the reaons you describe, it was my understanding this is how it works with spiked chains and the spiked chain multiclass feat that lets them count as light blades. I'll dig around the character builder and see if this is the case.
#4 Damon_Tor Jun 16, 2010 4:04:09	Some largely unintended consequences are that it lets any staff-implement class use bows as implements This is not true.  All magic staffs are magic quarterstaves, but not all magic quarterstaves are magic staves.  A wizard, for example, could use his +2 Staff of Ruin for his implement powers and use it in melee as if it were a +2 Magic Quarterstaff.  However, he could not take a +2 Vicious Quarterstaff and use that with his Implement powers. This is incorrect.  All quarterstaves are in the "staff" weapon group, thus all quarterstaves are staves.  A wizard can use "staves" as an implement, which does not exclude weapons in the staff group.  By your logic, a swordmage would have to use some kind of generic "heavy blade implement" and not a longsword. To the OP: the solution is simple enough.  Reword the feat to read "You can make melee attacks with a bow as if it were a quarterstaff"
#5 mplindustries Jun 16, 2010 6:16:32	False, this has been done with Frost and the like (weapon-only enchants) for a long time. Not with a Frost Quarterstaff it hasn't.  Arcane Implement Proficiency for Heavy or Light Blades or Wizard of the Spiral Tower or whatever that one paragon path is called, is how that stuff is done.  The "Staff" weapon group is not the same as the "Staff" Implement group. While silly for exactly the reaons you describe, it was my understanding this is how it works with spiked chains and the spiked chain multiclass feat that lets them count as light blades. I'll dig around the character builder and see if this is the case. It is definitely not how it works with Spiked Chains either.  And I have to tell you, if the Character Builder lets it happen, I'd still tell you that the Character Builder is wrong.  It doesn't work that way.
#6 urpriest Jun 16, 2010 14:19:07	To the OP: the solution is simple enough.  Reword the feat to read "You can make melee attacks with a bow as if it were a quarterstaff" That would eliminate it for all but some odd corner cases (beast form druids, one or two psion powers). I don't think it's necessarily a problem, though, and that was something I was looking for input on. Is it likely that bow-enchantments and feats will be dangerous in the hands of staff-implement users?
#7 salla Jun 16, 2010 14:24:24	While it may be flavorful, this feat probably won't accomplish much.  All the character's powers will still be based on their regular stat (most likely DEX or WIS for Seekers), so they'll be trying to perform melee basic attacks with a low strength.  So they'll need to invest in Melee Training to change that, and still be swinging with a crappy weapon. I can't see where this would be better than taking Quick Draw, Fast Hands, or Battle harness Armor and just doing a quick change to a decent backup weapon, or just shifting and shooting.
#8 urpriest Jun 16, 2010 14:38:01	If you're just using it for attacks of opportunity and the like then I agree, there are better options (the only class that could do that right out of the gate would be a bow-warlord). What this does is get rid of some multiple-item-dependence for characters who want to do some ranged-melee dabbling, like a ranger who picks up some Dex-based melee powers or a seeker|avenger hybrid. Artificers and ranged bards would also get some benefit, though with +2 proficiency weapons this will still not generally be an optimal choice.