Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 markusdark Sep 29, 2008 16:27:37	Has anyone else changed the dice rolls for brutal weapons? For example, A Kopesh does 2d4 (1d8 Brutal 1) or a Craghammer does 1d8+2 (1d10 Brutal 2)? Just so a player doesn't have to reroll damage dice.
#2 batshido Sep 29, 2008 16:31:21	Has anyone else changed the dice rolls for brutal weapons? For example, A Kopesh does 2d4 (1d8 Brutal 1) or a Craghammer does 1d8+2 (1d10 Brutal 2)? Just so a player doesn't have to reroll damage dice. I haven't had it come up in a game yet, but I don't know that I would. It seems like one of the cool things about those types of weapons is the reroll. It makes them feel different. If a player asked, I'd probably let them do it another way (at least where there was no mechanical effect, that's not the case with the khopesh), but most of the guys I've played with would probably rather roll the brutal weapons normally or at least enjoy it more doing it that way.
#3 nthdegree256 Sep 29, 2008 16:50:55	The reroll "fun" is a part of it, but I think there's another, bigger part of it, and that's that anyone using one of these weapons will probably be using powers that say 2[W]+Strength, 3[W]+Dexterity, etc. If you use the reroll mechanic, you don't give these a second thought - you simply roll your 3d10, pick up whatever dice have "bad" values, and reroll them, then add in your magic item bonus and ability bonus. If you're using "brutal 2 1d10 = 1d8+2", then suddenly you have to track more modifiers, and while this isn't too hard, it's easier to trip over because the rule of thumb is that the [W] only refers to the die, not to any modifiers. Suddenly 3[W] + Str goes from "roll 3d10, reroll if needed, and add +4 from Strength and +2 from magic" to "roll 3d8, add 6 because each die has a +2 bonus, and then add +4 from Strength and +2 from magic." Again, it works fine, but the reroll mechanic fits more intuitively into the [W] system and is easier to not screw up.
#4 lordkay Sep 29, 2008 16:58:19	The problem with going from a 2d4 to a 1d8 is that the player actually gets screwed when that happens. If you roll 2d4, you have a better chance of getting a higher total than with a 1d8. Say with a 2d4 your first roll is a 1, there is still the possibility that you could roll a 4 on your second roll for a 5. With the 1d8 method, if you roll a 1, your stuck with the 1. It's given the 2 dice so that it never does 1 damage. If you look, a lot of your "most powerful" weapons do 2d worth of damage. I understand it's harder to do the math that way, but it gives better results in my opinion.
#5 akram_umbar Sep 29, 2008 17:13:45	The problem with going from a 2d4 to a 1d8 is that the player actually gets screwed when that happens. If you roll 2d4, you have a better chance of getting a higher total than with a 1d8. Say with a 2d4 your first roll is a 1, there is still the possibility that you could roll a 4 on your second roll for a 5. With the 1d8 method, if you roll a 1, your stuck with the 1. It's given the 2 dice so that it never does 1 damage. If you look, a lot of your "most powerful" weapons do 2d worth of damage. I understand it's harder to do the math that way, but it gives better results in my opinion. The OP was talking about going the other way - a khopesh is a 1d8 Brutal 1 weapon, he was suggesting rolling 2d4 instead. That gives the same damage range (2-8), although the probability of getting any particular result is different for the two different die/dice types.
#6 nthdegree256 Sep 29, 2008 17:15:25	The problem with going from a 2d4 to a 1d8 is that the player actually gets screwed when that happens. If you roll 2d4, you have a better chance of getting a higher total than with a 1d8. Say with a 2d4 your first roll is a 1, there is still the possibility that you could roll a 4 on your second roll for a 5. With the 1d8 method, if you roll a 1, your stuck with the 1. It's given the 2 dice so that it never does 1 damage. If you look, a lot of your "most powerful" weapons do 2d worth of damage. I understand it's harder to do the math that way, but it gives better results in my opinion. Lordkay, I think the point of the discussion is the Brutal weapon property from the Adventurer's Vault. This property exists on some weapons and translates to "if you roll lower than X on the weapon die, reroll the die until you get a value higher than X." So a Brutal 2 1d10 weapon is actually equivalent to 1d8+2 - they have the same probability spread. 2d4 is a slightly different spread from 1d8 or 1d8+1, so it's not the best example, I'll grant.
#7 unknowncorrespondent_dup Sep 29, 2008 17:37:26	[GEEK]lordkay is correct - d8 Brutal 1 =/= 2d4. Although they have the same range, they don't have the same distribution: d8 Br. 1 2d4 2 14.29% 6.25% 3 14.29% 12.5% 4 14.29% 18.75% 5 14.29% 25% 6 14.29% 18.75% 7 14.29% 12.5% 8 14.29% 6.25% d8 Brutal 1 is the same as d7+1, but there is no physical way to generate "d7" that doesn't involve rerolls, so there is no shortcut unless you use a random number generator. d8+2, on the other hand, is the same as d10 Brutal 2.[/GEEK]
#8 akram_umbar Sep 29, 2008 17:42:17	[GEEK]lordkay is correct - d8 Brutal 1 =/= 2d4. Although they have the same range, they don't have the same distribution: d8 Br. 1 2d4 2 14.29% 6.25% 3 14.29% 12.5% 4 14.29% 18.75% 5 14.29% 25% 6 14.29% 18.75% 7 14.29% 12.5% 8 14.29% 6.25% d8 Brutal 1 is the same as d7+1, but there is no physical way to generate "d7" that doesn't involve rerolls, so there is no shortcut unless you use a random number generator. d8+3, on the other hand, is the same as d10 Brutal 2.[/GEEK] [nitpick]Its 1d8+2, not +3.[/nitpick] I wasn't arguing against his assessment of the probability-spread (since I don't argue against things that are correct)... just correcting his (apparent) misapprehension of the OPs meaning.
#9 nthdegree256 Sep 29, 2008 17:43:28	d8+3, on the other hand, is the same as d10 Brutal 2. d8+2, you mean. d8 = 4.5 average, +2 = 6.5 average. d10 Brutal 2 = (3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10) = 6.5 average. edit: Ninja'd by Akram! Brutal, indeed.