Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 goujoe_the_bumpkin Dec 08, 2009 13:24:59	Alright, so a friend and I have been talking some about a custom character class I've had brewing in my head for a while and finally got to cranking out quite a bit of it last night. Now I'm wondering if anyone would like to perhaps give suggestions, point out over/underpoweredness, or toss in ideas to help the class building along. So! Let's dive right into it, shall we? The Bloodwitch: As you can likely guess, the theme of this character is, surprise, blood. But to be more specific: Blood magic. Though instead of casting spells of an arcane nature like the already existing Blood Mage, the Bloodwitch's abilities are far more basic, aggressive, and utterly brutal. She manipulates the life energies existing within the blood of her enemies to dole out gratuitous amounts of damage, and is able to damage herself and use her own blood to further beef up the damage in exchange for her own hitpoints. (Let me say that again: I know about the Blood Mage paragon path for arcane spellcasters. This is not intended to be the Blood Mage paragon path for arcane spellcasters. What I'm going for here is something that stands out on its own, with a unique source apart from the arcane ones used by wizards and sorcerers.) This class is intended to be a mid ranged caster with dex melee support, dishing out large amounts of damage indiscriminately (many of her attacks are area based, and effect all creatures caught in the path of the spaying blood). The powers are less "spells" and more "magical abilities", things such as projectile vomiting blood at an enemy to burn their flesh with magical fire or acid damage, or making an enemy's blood literally explode from their body to deal damage to them and any close enough to be sprayed by the magically charged fluid, or have blood ooze from their palms and coat their weapon in order to grant a magical boost to the damage of their melee attacks, things like that. The flavor can wait though, for now I'll simply tell you the bare class stats: Bloodwitch: Role: Striker Power Source: Thaumaturgy, a.k.a. Blood Energy I'm in the process of trying to find a new power source. Key Abilities: Charisma, Dexterity, Constitution Armor Proficiencies: Cloth Weapon Proficiencies: Simple Melee Implements: Blood Claws (See class features) Defenses: +1 Ref, +1 Will HP 1st level: 12+Con score HP gained per level: 6 Healing Surges per day: 6+Con mod Skills: Choose four; Arcana, Endurance, Heal, History, Intimidate, Perception, Stealth Class Features: Blood Claws, Sanguine Vestments, Scarlet Pact, Burning Blood Blood Claws: You have two natural weapons that can be manifested as a free action. You are proficient in these weapons (+2 prof), 2d6 damage, these claws can be selected for the purpose of weapon specific feats. The player cannot use other weapons when the Blood Claws ability is active. One of the first twisted abilities you learn on your way to become a Bloodwitch, you are able to warp your hands into long, wickedly sharp claws. Your fingers grow twice their length and the pointed tips become a strange, blood colored material as strong and as a sharp as a steel blade.. Sanguine Vestments: While wearing cloth or no armor, and not using a shield, you have a +2 bonus to AC. This bonus increases to a +3 bonus when you are bloodied, this bonus increases to +4 when bloodied at Paragon Tier. (Though perhaps the increase might need to be changed, or turned into a feat the class can take or something) Through the fell magics and abhorrent rituals you practice, the very blood that soaks and stains your clothing becomes a form of magical protection on par with a suit of armor. Scarlet Pact: When using any Bloodwitch power, as a free action before you cast the power, you may damage yourself. Heroic: 1d8 / Paragon: 2d8 / Epic: 3d8. If the Bloodwitch attack hits the enemy, add double this number to the damage the enemy receives. You use the blood and life energy from your very veins to power your magics, and can borrow some of that blood to boost the power of your attacks. Burning Blood: When you are bloodied, and use a Bloodwitch encounter or daily power, the target(s) of the attack takes ongoing fire and/or (haven't figured out if it should be both, or the player's choice of one or the other) acid damage equal to your constitution modifier (save ends). When your body is injured enough, the latent fury coursing through your veins seethes with energy, burning the flesh of your enemies as they are covered in it. That's it for the basics of the class, I'll post all the powers that we figured out (We have 23 so far) once I get back from classes. In the meantime, I would greatly appreciate suggestions for powers and feats, tweaked stats, or even so much as interesting names for things. We've yet to run this all by our DM, so some suggestions for balancing would be very nice as well. Oh! And I'll post oodles and oodles of flavor text as well, once I'm back. ((Lowered some of the dice rolls to suggested numbers.)) Okay, now for the powers. I have yet to figure out levels or anything for these, so some that seem clearly rediculous are obviously ment to be high level. Powers: At wills: Twin Claws: Standard, Melee, one creature, Dex vs AC (Two separate attacks), Hit: 1[W] per attack. You slash viciously with your claws. Bloodfang Bite: Standard, Melee, one creature, Dex vs Reflex, Hit: 1[w]+Dex mod. Gain temporary hitpoints equal to constitution modifier. you leap at your foe and sink your teeth into their flesh, drinking their life force. Sanguine Slip: Utility, Free action, self, You ignore squeezing. Your flesh takes on the consistency of blood, allowing you to slip into tight spaces. Blood Bolt: Standard, range 5, one creature, Cha vs. Reflex, Hit: 1d6 +cha mod damage. Target takes -2 to attacks till end of your next turn. You launch a charged blast of your blood at an enemy, burning their flesh and hindering attacks. Encounters: Red Mist: Immediate Reaction, burst 1, each creature in burst, Cha vs. Fort, Trigger: An attack bloodies you, Hit: 1d6+cha mod damage, target(s) dazed until end of your next turn, Sustain minor: Targets in zone take damage equal to your charisma mod. You raise your head and spay blood from your mouth into the air, the falling mist causes those who inhale it to begin coughing uncontrollably until the mist clears. Boiling Veins: Standard, range 5, one creature, CHA vs Fort, Hit: 3d8+Cha mod damage and target takes ongoing 10 fire damage (save ends). You channel the burning rage in your veins at a foe, causing the blood flowing in them to literally begin to boil. Blood Spay: Standard, blast 3, all creatures, CHA vs Reflex, Hit: 2d4+Cha mod, target(s) blinded until end of your next turn. A great heave sends forth a spay of projectile vomited blood into the faces of those in your path, painfully burning their eyes. Rapid Rend: Minor, Melee, one creature, DEX vs AC, Hit: 1[w]+dex mod. You strike at your enemy with a lightning quick slash. Coagulate: Utility, Immediate reaction, Self, Trigger: You are subjected to ongoing damage, Effect: You automatically end the ongoing damage. You coagulate the blood flowing through your body, magically purging it of impurities. Red Eye: Utility, Minor action, self, You gain a +5 bonus to perception checks, and can see invisible creatures as if they were visible. Your eyes fill with blood, and you use its energy to greatly enhance your eyesight. Sanguine Shift: Move action, self, You can shift up to your speed, ignore difficult terrain, and move through enemy squares. Your form bursts into a shifting pool of blood that moves rapidly before your body regains its shape. Burst Capillary: Standard, range 5, one creature, CHA vs. Fort, 1d10+CHA mod damage and target is blinded (save ends). With a twist of your hand, you rend the blood vessles in your foe's eyes. Dailys: Blood Spatter: Standard, melee touch, one creature, DEX vs Reflex, Hit: Dex mod damage and make a secondary attack, 2nd attack: blast 3 directly behind the target, CHA vs Reflex, 2d10+CHA mod and dazed (save ends. You strike the foe with the palm of your hand, causing blood to eplode from their back and spatter any unlucky person behind them, burning them with bloody energy. Sanguine Hands: Minor, self, All melee atacks you do deal 1d6 additional damage, sustain minor. Blood seeps from your hands, coating them in a dripping layer of charged plasma. Sanguine Arms: Minor, self, until end of the encounter all melee attacks you do deal 1d12 additional damage. Blood seeps  from your skin, coating your entire arms in viciously charged fluid. Wracking Pain: Standard, melee touch, one creature, DEX vs Reflex, 3[W] +dex mod, target is stunned until the end of your next turn. Your claws drip with wicked power, causing mind rending agony to anyone they are cut by. Sense Lifeforce: Minor, range: sight, one creature, The DM must tell you the current and total hit points of the creature as well as healing surges and temporary hit points. Your deep connection with blood allows you to sense how much is flowing in some one's veins, and how much must be spilled to sever the bond between body and soul. Blood Shape: Utility, minor, one creature, You take on the target's physical appearance (but not their equipment, nor their abilities or languages), this lasts until you end it as a free action or until you use another Bloodwitch power, can only be used on creatures of the same type as you (example: if you are a humanoid, you can only take the appearance of humanoids), Requirement: You must imbibe the target's blood. You have such power over blood that you are able to copy the lifeforce of a victim and take on their form simply by drinking a sip of their blood. Blood Fog: Standard, close burst, You create a zone that lasts until the end of the encounter, this zone blocks line of sight and allies starting their turn in it gain temporary hit points equal to half their level. Your cheeks puff out as a thick fog of blood billows from your lips, creating a thick shroud and forming a protective coating over the bodies of your allies. Sanguine Bond: ((Yes, I got the name and idea from the Magic: The Gathering card, lol) Standard, range 5, one creature, CHA vs Will, 2d6+cha mod damage and you mark the target until the end of the encounter, and damage the marked target does to you it takes as well. You form a synergy of lifeforce with your foe, magically binding your blood together so that when yours is spilt, theirs is as well. Blood Bomb: (One of my favorites!) Standard, range 10, one creature, Cha vs Will, 2d6+cha mod damage, if this attack reduces the target to 0 or fewer hit points make a secondary attack, 2nd attack: Burst 2 from primary target, targets all creatures in burst, CHA vs. AC, 1d8+CHA mod damage. You make the enemy's blood expand within their body and cause great harm, occasionally causing the victim to violently explode in a grim burst of gore and cause further harm to those around it. Scarlet Frenzy: Standard, close burst 1, each creature in burst, Dex vs AC, 2[w]+dex mod damage, shift 5 quares and make an repeat attack. You are overcome for a moment with a blood frenzy, slashing wildly at anything around you before collapsing into a pool of blood, darting to another spot to burst forth and frenzy again. Bloodblaze Form: Standard, Close burst 3, each creature in burst, CHA vs AC, 2d8+CHA mod damage, and until the end of the encounter you take the form of the Bloodblaze. You have a aura of 3, any creature moving through or starting their turn in the aura take fire damage equal to your CON modifier, any powers with the Blood keyword (Pretty much all the Bloodwitch powers) gain a bonus to the attack and damage roll equal to your CHA mod. This is what nearly all Bloodwitches dream of one day achieving. You send forth an explosion of red spray, warping your body into a humanoid form made of blood that dances, flows, and crackles like a raging inferno. That's it for the powers so far. I would appreciate constructive tips on perhaps altering some, or suggestions for additional powers, or even name changes (I realize I use the word Blood in like 70% of them, we didn't have a thesaurus when we made them, lol). I've gotten a lot of people griping about me not wanting to use the Arcane powersource, here's a bit of explenation as to why: Alright, I was essentially thinking of something a little along the same lines as where a monk gets his power. He doesn't use arcane energy, he uses Ki energy, sure he does interesting things that are clearly magic in nature but it's not from an arcane source. I'm looking to find the same sort of feel with this class, the abilities are clearly not really spells even though they're magical in nature. The word Thaumaturgy comes to mind. It's the blood magic from the White Wold vampire games, even though it's much more arcane in nature then what I'm going for with the Bloodwitch, the same idea applies. They don't get their power from a god's blessing or from a dragon heritage or primal power, or some astral dimention, they get it from the energy that's in their own flesh and blood, as well as manipulating that same power in their enemies in order to do their attacks. Though that's simply what I'm going for, perhaps not what I've achieved with this (very) rough draft, what I would appreciate is some help reaching that goal of making it distinct. The idea I have has to do with a sort of character with the Bloodwitch class looking at some magic tome or artifact and not really have much idea what to make of it, as their realm isn't manipulation of the world around them, but rather manipulation of themselves and their enemies.
#2 Shiftkitty Dec 08, 2009 14:27:36	In "Swords and Sorcery" there is a Bloodwitch (or is it Bloodmage?) class. I don't remember what book it's in, but I have it at home. I'll look for it and see if there's anything that might fit your concept of the class.
#3 goujoe_the_bumpkin Dec 08, 2009 14:46:43	In "Swords and Sorcery" there is a Bloodwitch (or is it Bloodmage?) class. I don't remember what book it's in, but I have it at home. I'll look for it and see if there's anything that might fit your concept of the class. I'm already familiar with the blood mage, It's a paragon path for wizards. The intention of this was to be a stand alone class, as well as being a distinct step away from the arcane spellcasters.
#4 Shiftkitty Dec 08, 2009 18:55:39	We might be on different pages. The S&S book I'm thinking of is a 3e publication. Unless you meant Prestige Class?
#5 Crimson_Concerto Dec 08, 2009 19:04:21	I'm not sure why you think that this requires some new power source. It sounds like Arcane to me, just an expansion of or elaboration upon the already existing Blood Mage Paragon Path that I know that you're already familiar with. Blood Claws: You have two natural weapons that can be manifested as a free action. You are proficient in these weapons (+2 prof), 2d8 damage, these claws can be selected for the purpose of weapon specific feats. This is nowhere near specific enough. Weapon Groups? Off-Hand or other properties? Handedness? Specify that you need a free hand? Can this be enchanted or does it need to scale? Also, 2D8 damage sounds completely excessive. Sanguine Vestments: While wearing cloth or no armor, and not using a shield, you have a +3 bonus to AC. This bonus increases to a +4 bonus when you are bloodied, this bonus increases to +5 when bloodied at Paragon Tier. (Though perhaps the increase might need to be changed, or turned into a feat the class can take or something) That bonus does not need to scale with tier. Generally speaking, only damage needs to do that. Also, +3/+4 is higher than I should expect from this sort of feature. I should think that +2 (+3 when bloodied) should be more than enough.
#6 jthewhiteknight Dec 08, 2009 19:12:24	For the Blood Claws feature isn't 2d8 damage a bit much for a natural weapon? 1d8 or 2d4 seems reasonable to me, but a 2d8 weapon is equivalent to a bugbear wielding a large maul and seems too potent. Did you mean that the damage was 1d8 for each hand for a total of 2d8?
#7 goujoe_the_bumpkin Dec 08, 2009 22:37:03	Crimson_Concerto, you are right with that one, I deffinetly need to be more specific and clarify things with the bloodclaws thing. I'll need to speak with the person who's helping me with the class, he's more familiar with the rules then I am when it comes to that sort of thing. Aslo, the reason I chose to use a new power source was that the class and abilities of the Bloodwitch were intended to be very specificly different then a wizard of a warlock or sorcorer. Their source of power isn't the Weave (Lol, don't know if that's 4e canon) or some equivilent power source, but rather the life energies in their own body. Arcane spellcasters do things like throw magic missles or change their size or walk on water, the Bloodwitch rips your guts out through your throat from ten feet away, lol. Also, along with that, I didn't want anything like items or whatnot that benifited characters with an arcane base to also benifit this class, you know?
#8 Crimson_Concerto Dec 08, 2009 22:54:36	Updated with the powers. Holy crap, those are horrifically formatted. Honestly, unless you fix those up, I don't think it's reasonable of you to expect any response at all to them. Aslo, the reason I chose to use a new power source was that the class and abilities of the Bloodwitch were intended to be very specificly different then a wizard of a warlock or sorcorer. Yes, and the Wizard is different from the Warlock is different from the Sorcerer. They all obtain their powers through entirely different methods, but that doesn't mean that they're not all Arcane. Their source of power isn't the Weave (Lol, don't know if that's 4e canon) or some equivilent power source, but rather the life energies in their own body. A) What are you talking about? Since when do arcane spellcasters rely on hair extensions for power? B) That sounds like Sorcerer, still Arcane. I could also see quite a reasonable case for Psionic being made. Arcane spellcasters do things like throw magic missles or change their size or walk on water, the Bloodwitch rips your guts out through your throat from ten feet away, lol. What is it that you believe is the difference? Also, along with that, I didn't want anything like items or whatnot that benifited characters with an arcane base to also benifit this class, you know? Why not? It would allow characters playing such a class to actually feel at least somewhat mechanically supported. Or are you really going to homebrew a coutless number of feats, items, etc. just for a homebrew class that some of your player might use?
#9 goujoe_the_bumpkin Dec 08, 2009 23:16:16	Updated with the powers. Holy crap, those are horrifically formatted. Honestly, unless you fix those up, I don't think it's reasonable of you to expect any response at all to them. Aslo, the reason I chose to use a new power source was that the class and abilities of the Bloodwitch were intended to be very specificly different then a wizard of a warlock or sorcorer. Yes, and the Wizard is different from the Warlock is different from the Sorcerer. They all obtain their powers through entirely different methods, but that doesn't mean that they're not all Arcane. Their source of power isn't the Weave (Lol, don't know if that's 4e canon) or some equivilent power source, but rather the life energies in their own body. A) What are you talking about? Since when do arcane spellcasters rely on hair extensions for power? B) That sounds like Sorcerer, still Arcane. I could also see quite a reasonable case for Psionic being made. Arcane spellcasters do things like throw magic missles or change their size or walk on water, the Bloodwitch rips your guts out through your throat from ten feet away, lol. What is it that you believe is the difference? Also, along with that, I didn't want anything like items or whatnot that benifited characters with an arcane base to also benifit this class, you know? Why not? It would allow characters playing such a class to actually feel at least somewhat mechanically supported. Or are you really going to homebrew a coutless number of feats, items, etc. just for a homebrew class that some of your player might use? Dude... All I've got to say is: Why are you on these forums? To help people iron out homebrew stuff, or to rip people's ideas apart? This is Dungeons and Dragons, pretty much the whole point of the game is to be free to do and make what you want. Now you can either help someone balance out the class they want to make, or you can go elsewhere. Oh, and I've got to add, the Weave was where spellcasters got their power from in 3.5. Lurk more.
#10 Crimson_Concerto Dec 08, 2009 23:41:27	Wow, okay, first of all, I am trying to help you, but I'm not going to tell you that you did a good job unless you actually did a good job. If what you were looking for in posting here was for people to stroke your ego and tell you how awesome you are and that everything that you did was perfect, then you've come to the wrong forum, because there are people here who offer real and honest and insightful critique, and none of my posts have been at all mean-spirited in nature. Now, if what you're upset about is my telling you that your posted powers have not been properly formatted, then you should know that wasn't an insult. That was the truth. They're very difficult to read and decipher as they are. They'd me much easier to figure out if they were formatted similarly to how powers are formatted in the books. I tell you this so that you can fix it so that more people will be more likely to actually respond to the thread. As they are, readers can't even tell what level these powers are. And if what you're upset about is my questioning of the concept of the Blood power source, I do this because every other home-brew class thinks that their idea is so special that it warrants an entirely new power source when (A) it's not different enough from existing powers sources to warrant a distinction and (B) it would in fact be beneficial for such classes to fit into an existing power source for purposes of feat support, item support, and so on. Every so often, a class does pop up that warrants its own unique power source, but you shouldn't feel like your class needs to be unique because of a new power source. It can be unique in other ways, and indeed, if the new power source is the only thing that makes your class unique, then your class probably isn't unique enough to warrant actually being a new class in the first place. I'm not saying that this is the case with your Blood-Witch, but I am saying that there are reasons to question the thought process behind legitimacy of such design decisions. After all, it becomes a lot easier to help you if we know what your thought process was when you were designing, and if it turns out that the new power source it warranted, we can look at your ideas and help you further differentiate it conceptually and mechanically from other classes and power sources. In other words, you don't need to get so defensive. I'm not out to get you, and I don't think that anybody else is either. Finally, I know what the Weave is. The question was a joke. The Weave has never been a part of D&D outside of FR, so no, it isn't part of the "canon" of 4E. I thought that the joke was obvious, but I guess I was mistaken.
#11 RPJesus Dec 08, 2009 23:47:59	none of my posts have been at all mean-spirited in nature. The format comment was a little edgy, but no more so than one should be expecting on the interwebz. Other than that, yeah nothing about your responses seems that bad. On the blood source; Wizards in fact have a paragon path called "Blood Mage" so yeah Arcane seems like a reasonable power source. Also, I kind of like the idea of a hair extension implement, but that's neither here nor there.
#12 goujoe_the_bumpkin Dec 09, 2009 0:06:49	Wow, okay, first of all, I am trying to help you, but I'm not going to tell you that you did a good job unless you actually did a good job. If what you were looking for in posting here was for people to stroke your ego and tell you how awesome you are and that everything that you did was perfect, then you've come to the wrong forum, because there are people here who offer real and honest and insightful critique, and none of my posts have been at all mean-spirited in nature. Now, if what you're upset about is my telling you that your posted powers have not been properly formatted, then you should know that wasn't an insult. That was the truth. They're very difficult to read and decipher as they are. They'd me much easier to figure out if they were formatted similarly to how powers are formatted in the books. I tell you this so that you can fix it so that more people will be more likely to actually respond to the thread. As they are, readers can't even tell what level these powers are. And if what you're upset about is my questioning of the concept of the Blood power source, I do this because every other home-brew class thinks that their idea is so special that it warrants an entirely new power source when (A) it's not different enough from existing powers sources to warrant a distinction and (B) it would in fact be beneficial for such classes to fit into an existing power source for purposes of feat support, item support, and so on. Every so often, a class does pop up that warrants its own unique power source, but you shouldn't feel like your class needs to be unique because of a new power source. It can be unique in other ways, and indeed, if the new power source is the only thing that makes your class unique, then your class probably isn't unique enough to warrant actually being a new class in the first place. I'm not saying that this is the case with your Blood-Witch, but I am saying that there are reasons to question the thought process behind legitimacy of such design decisions. After all, it becomes a lot easier to help you if we know what your thought process was when you were designing, and if it turns out that the new power source it warranted, we can look at your ideas and help you further differentiate it conceptually and mechanically from other classes and power sources. In other words, you don't need to get so defensive. I'm not out to get you, and I don't think that anybody else is either. Finally, I know what the Weave is. The question was a joke. The Weave has never been a part of D&D outside of FR, so no, it isn't part of the "canon" of 4E. I thought that the joke was obvious, but I guess I was mistaken. Alright, thank you, That is actually somewhat constructive. Though I will say that I'm not "looking for in posting here was for people to stroke your ego and tell you how awesome you are and that everything that you did was perfect" as you so politely put. I'm looking for actual suggestions for mechanical changes to the class in order to streamline it rather then people yelling "broken" like a, well, broken record without offering anything close to constructive advice. Which is a rather large factor in why I'm just a little pissed off and defensive (You wouldn't believe the asshats from some of the other forums I've posted this outline on). Alright, so with the power source thing, I was essentially thinking of something a little along the same lines as where a monk gets his power. He doesn't use arcane energy, he uses Ki energy, sure he does interesting things that are clearly magic in nature but it's not from an arcane source. I'm looking to find the same sort of feel with this class, the abilities are not really spells even though they're magical in nature. Oooh, the word Thaumaturgy just came to mind! It's the blood magic from the White Wold vampire games, even though it's much more arcane in nature then what I'm going for with the Bloodwitch, the same idea applies. They don't get their power from a god's blessing or from a dragon heritage or primal power, they get it from the energy that's in their own bodies and blood, as well as manipulating that same power source in their enemies in order to do their attacks. Though that's simply what I'm going for, perhaps not what I've achieved with this rough draft, what I would appreciate is some help reaching that goal of making it distinct. The idea I have has to do with a sort of character with the Bloodwitch class looking at some magic tome or artifact and not really have much idea what to make of it, as their realm isn't manipulation of the world around them, but rather manipulation of themselves and their enemies. And I just quickly scrawled out the powers, I planned on going back through them and sort out the format somewhat.
#13 RPJesus Dec 09, 2009 0:32:53	Alright, so with the power source thing, I was essentially thinking of something a little along the same lines as where a monk gets his power. He doesn't use arcane energy, he uses Ki energy, Aren't monks psionic now? The idea I have has to do with a sort of character with the Bloodwitch class looking at some magic tome or artifact and not really have much idea what to make of it, as their realm isn't manipulation of the world around them, but rather manipulation of themselves and their enemies. Psionic would be your best bet then (or possibly shadow I guess).
#14 goujoe_the_bumpkin Dec 09, 2009 0:58:32	Alright, so with the power source thing, I was essentially thinking of something a little along the same lines as where a monk gets his power. He doesn't use arcane energy, he uses Ki energy, Aren't monks psionic now? The idea I have has to do with a sort of character with the Bloodwitch class looking at some magic tome or artifact and not really have much idea what to make of it, as their realm isn't manipulation of the world around them, but rather manipulation of themselves and their enemies. Psionic would be your best bet then (or possibly shadow I guess). Oh geeze, I hope they're not psionic... I mean, I'm glad psionics isn't going to be as neglected as it was before, but monks use ki, they're not psionic! Oh well, that's just me griping at 4e. I suppose that makes my example a little inacurate then... Blah.
#15 Crimson_Concerto Dec 09, 2009 8:38:07	Yes, Monks are Psionic. They also use Ki. Ki is a method of accessing Psionic power. Likewise, Pacts are a method that the Warlock uses to access Arcane power, and Convenants are a method that the Invoker uses to access Divine Power. This is why Ki and Pacts and Covenants aren't their own power sources. They're methods of accessing power sources. The case can even be easily made that Pacts and Covenants are just sysnonymous names for one another and that the same method is therefore being used to access different power sources, and the same can be true for Ki, as we currently have both the Monk, Psionic, and the Assassin, Shadow, using it as a method to access entirely different power sources. This is why a new method of obtaining power is not enogh to constitute a new power source. Does that make sense now why I questioned whether your Blood magic was really a new power source and not just a new method to access an existing power source? Now, as you've said that the purpose of this power source is not to manipulate external energy, as is usual with Arcane, but internal energy, then I'd like to recommend Psionic as an alternative. Generally speaking, however, Psionic deals with internal mental power and not internal physical power, so you might have a case, if you brush aside Primal, for this Blood being actually being a new power source. However, I'm still personally of the opinion that it's too narrow in concept and that it can fit closely enough in another power source that allowing so might be better, especially because it will improve your players' feat options, item options, and so on, but it you're really so dead set against this, then I will digress and wait for other updates and more content so that I can comment on the more mechanical aspects...
#16 branar Dec 09, 2009 11:05:08	I won't comment on the power source stuff, but I figured I'd post some DPR math for you to illustrate a couple of things about the damage your Striker will be putting out: You really ought to make it clear that Scarlet Pact can only do its damage once per turn in that case (this is important anyway - there's a reason why warlocks who spend action points still don't get their curse damage twice in one turn). Especially if you're giving it a Twin Strike port as an at-will power. Scarlet Pact is doing way too much damage for someone who can make two attack rolls per round at-will. This increases the odds of getting your Pact damage every round dramatically - with two attack rolls at a 50% chance of hitting, you get your Pact damage 75% of the time. Let's do a simplified comparison to a ranger using Twin Strike. We'll assume the classes have similar feat support, enhancement bonuses, and stat modifiers (which don't apply to these at-wills anyway), and that both attack rolls have a 50% chance to hit. The ranger's expected DPR, ignoring feats/enh/etc: 1d10 (5.5) + 1d6 (3.5 * 0.75) + mods = 8.125 DPR The bloodwitch with Twin Claws, ditto: 2d6 (7) + 1d8 x2 (9 * 0.75) + mods = 13.75 DPR For the record, comparing them both to a barbarian using Devastating Strike (who has a +4 stat bonus to str and only gets one attack roll at 50% chance to hit): 1d12 (6.5 * 0.5) + 1d8 (4.5 * 0.5) + 4 (4 * 0.5) + mods = 7.5 DPR And one more for comparison: Bloodwitch with a +4 dex mod using Bloodfang Bite @ 50% chance to hit: 2d6 (7.5 * 0.5) + 1d8 x2 (9 * 0.5) +4 (4 * 0.5) + mods = 9.75 DPR Now, the DPR gap between double and single attack-roll powers closes moderately as your chance to hit goes up (since you can only benefit from Quarry-style features once per round). Regardless, though, the Bloodclaw witch is going to be dealing out more damage than every other Striker with at-wills. Especially with Twin Claws, a disproportionate amount of damage is going to be coming from Scarlet Pact. I strongly recommend dropping the damage on Blood Claws and Scarlet Pact a *ton*. You probably don't want to hear that, but frankly the basic problem is just that you've given your Striker significantly bigger damage dice than anybody else. I know that you probably feel that the damage from Scarlet Pact balances that out, but it doesn't - there's a reason why even though a barbarian using Devastating Strike is giving all attackers a +2 to hit each turn, he's not dealing out a ton more damage than his allies. Taking minor damage/a defense penalty for dishing out more damage simply isn't that big a 'penalty' for Strikers. Barbarians already do that on many of their attacks - provoking attacks of opportunity, decreasing their defenses, etc - and they aren't doing 70% more damage than rangers. Some rough recommendations on a couple of different topics. 1. Drop Blood Claws to 1d10. 2. If you keep Scarlet Pact in its current form, drop it to 1d4. I know you don't want to hear that and it seems like a brutal nerf, but honestly you have to keep in mind that really it's 2d4. That's better than every other Striker damage bonus, and spending the HP isn't really a significant penalty. 3. That said, I really do not recommend keeping Scarlet Pact in its current form. There's a reason why Bloodclaw Greataxe was a magic weapon property and not a class feature, and there's also a reason why it was changed - not only does it drastically increase your DPR (see above), but it's also actually just kind of boring. I'd find something else. Make sure it gives them ~4 DPR at a 50% chance to hit and you'll be in good shape in terms of making them balanced. 4. Along the same lines, there's just not a whole lot of tactical play encouraged by their class featuers. I'd strongly consider giving them something that forces them to carefully consider positioning and/or their target. Perhaps when they are flanking, their claws can apply ongoing X damage (save ends). Also consider giving them a bonus against enemies who are taking ongoing damage. The non-stacking nature ongoing damage, combined with the bonus (perhaps they can pick from a selection of bonuses) of this combined with positional requirements might make things a little more interesting than "spend down your hp until you're bloodied, then burn encounter/dailies." Again, just check it against other Striker damage output. 5. For Feat support, consider feats that add weapon properties to Blood Claws (stuff like Brutal 2, High Crit, etc). That could be fun, and not overpowered (e.g., the Executioner's Axe Proficiency for a barbarian is effectively a heroic-tier feat that adds Brutal 2 to his weapon damage.) Hope that's helpful.
#17 generalhenry Dec 09, 2009 12:51:28	Role: there's more to making a striker than giving them damage. If you're serious about making a striker, the class needs mobility. Power Source: unless you're going to write up 30 quality feats for your new power source, you should stick to the existing power sources.   Power sources are for feat access. Builds: dex build and cha build is very awkward without the cha build getting a cha to AC ability. Weapon: One handed weapons should not do more than 1d12.  Powers: most your powers are either overpowered or unoriginal. Suggestion:  rather that trying to build a class from scratch,  make a new build of an existing class.  Reflavor  powers as needed, add new powers as needed. 4E classes are hard to make.  4E power sources are hard to make. 4E characters are easy to make.  Some reflavoring, a custom feat or two, maybe a custom class feature, and a new paragon path.  Build the character.
#18 goujoe_the_bumpkin Dec 09, 2009 14:26:50	Power Source: Suggestion:  rather that trying to build a class from scratch,  make a new build of an existing class.  Reflavor  powers as needed, add new powers as needed. 4E classes are hard to make.  4E power sources are hard to make. 4E characters are easy to make.  Some reflavoring, a custom feat or two, maybe a custom class feature, and a new paragon path.  Build the character.  While the stock classes are certainly fun and all that, none of them, even with a gratuitous amount of reflavoring, could be anywhere close to the sort of character and such I had in mind when I started thinking about making this class. This hasn't been all that hard (so far at least), and all of what I have here is from a single night of brainstorming. Making stuff can be pretty tough, though nowhere near as tough as it was in 3.5, and few things beat playing something that you worked your ass off to create and refine. I mean, the power to do and make whatever you want should never rest soley with the dude in the DM's seat, you know? And thanks Branar, that was very helpful. I'm hopefully meeting with the person who's pretty much my rules (semi)expert when it comes to this, and we can compare it to other classes to get the damage output down. Hopefully it'll still be high, but not too high. One thing I'm sort of envisioning with this class, though I know I've nowhere near achieved it yet, is essentially make three different "specializations" for the class. One being a generally melee, another generally ranged, and another as a sort of "blood summoner". I haven't worked out any powers for it yet, but I plan on adding stuff that would allow the Bloodwitch to summon blood constructs from the corpses of fallen enemies, one summons a single moderatly powerful one, one summons several small ones, one higher level one summons something that reflects the slain creature, and other things like that. I should have put out a little sooner that I'm not entirely familiar with the rules, so I don't know if that would work or not, I don't know how many things can be summoned at once or how they work within the player's turn structure. Though that's just the vision I have, hopefully it can be made to work.
#19 generalhenry Dec 09, 2009 14:37:32	While the stock classes are certainly fun and all that, none of them, even with a gratuitous amount of reflavoring, could be anywhere close to the sort of character and such I had in mind when I started thinking about making this class. This hasn't been all that hard (so far at least), and all of what I have here is from a single night of brainstorming. Making stuff can be pretty tough, though nowhere near as tough as it was in 3.5, and few things beat playing something that you worked your ass off to create and refine. I mean, the power to do and make whatever you want should never rest soley with the dude in the DM's seat, you know? So far you've come up with mostly junk and/or rehashed powers and you're already running out of ability names.  And you haven't gotten to the hard parts. Making new classes was MUCH easier in 3E.  Even if you made an ability for every level, that's less than a quarter of the work required for a 4E class. As for creating such a character, is the character really that much different from a dragon sorcerer |twf ranger?
#20 generalhenry Dec 09, 2009 14:48:08	====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
#21 generalhenry Dec 09, 2009 15:13:25	I mean, the power to do and make whatever you want should never rest soley with the dude in the DM's seat, you know? Classes shouldn't be built for individual characters.  They should be build for the entire campaign world.   As a player you should focus on developing a character concept, building custom material as needed for the concept. OR if you want to build a class for the sake of building the class, build a solid foundation.  Define what makes a Bloodwitch a Bloodwitch.  Where do they come from?  How did they get their powers? What drives them?  What do other people think of them? An ability list & power list rooted in nothing isn't worth wasting time on.
#22 generalhenry Dec 09, 2009 15:23:15	"blood summoner" list of classes with summoning builds: wizard, invoker, druid hint: they're all controllers