Bull Rush...Improved (hopefully!) - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Bull Rush...Improved (hopefully!)

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Natebone
Jul 01, 2009 19:22:08 My DM has on more than one occasion voiced his contempt for the rules governing Bull Rush. Bull Rush is fine as written when it is between two medium or same-sized creatures. However, if it is between two creatures with a size differential, the rules for Bull Rush seem lacking at best and absurd at worst. Then throw in the Dwarf racial ability, Stand Your Ground, which reduces any forced movement by 1 (which is all that Bull Rush currently does), and the situation becomes comic if employed by a dwarf against a gargantuan creature's Bull Rush.

So, I am offering for consideration and feedback an idea for altering Bull Rush to take size differential into account, which as a consequence affects the Stand Your Ground racial ability in relation to that combat action. I will also offer some recommendations on similar monster abilities that affect forced movement.

I propose that a successful Bull Rush attempt pushes the target 1 square plus 1 additional square for every difference in size. A Bull Rush will always have the potential to push a target at least 1 square if it is possible at all (usually you cannot Bull Rush an opponent more than one size larger). Like most forced movement, you can choose to push your target fewer squares. Also, a creature cannot push a target with a successful Bull Rush more squares than it has in its standard move. With a successful Bull Rush attempt, a gargantuan creature could, for example, push a medium target up to 4 squares (or a dwarf for 3). This is calculated as 1 + 3 [gargantuan is three size-categories larger than medium].

This change greatly benefits larger creatures, which are, of course, mostly monsters. Some of these monsters have powers that are better than Bull Rush for moving enemies around the board. But with this change, Bull Rush is at least a viable tactic again for everyone and covers those monsters that do not have such powers. Of course, ultimately, this house rule makes life harder for adventurers and will make some dwarves bitter, but they will still fair better than other player races against Bull Rush.

One way to compensate players a little is to eliminate forced movement immunities enjoyed by a few monsters (such as the Gorgon). But I would grant creatures with these immunities a “Stand Your Ground” like reduction to forced movement equal to 2 or more squares. Without this change, you retain the risk of a similarly absurd situation where an ancient red dragon (or a polymorphed player) cannot Bull Rush a gorgon.

This proposed change to Bull Rush does not in any way wish to alter the rules governing forced movement into hindering terrain (i.e., squares that would cause damage, such as fire, falling, etc.).

I welcome all comments on this proposed change to Bull Rush, except the argument that no change is required because D&D is a fantasy world with magic and all manner of things that alter what we in real life understand as the laws of physics. This argument has already been considered and tossed out by my DM and myself. Magic has a revered role in D&D, but some laws of physics are more difficult to let go of. It is a matter of personal taste and DM choice how to strike the balance between these two often conflicting forces.
#2
gregt_314
Jul 01, 2009 19:33:42 The main issues are:
(1) you're nerfing halflings and gnomes, which, let's be honest, did NOT need to be any weaker, and
(2) in 99.9% of cases a creature of Large size or higher will have something vastly more effective to do than bull rush, even with your proposed modifications. Presuming you're not a DM that allows pushes to result in auto-kill situations for players, then there's just hardly any situations where a single target multi-square push requiring a to-hit roll that does no innate damage is a better option for a monster than using their at-will.

Just as an example of the truth of that, take the Torture Chamber room from Keep on the Shadowfell, which is designed to demonstrate the bull rush rules and has plenty of damaging terrain to push people into, and run it a few times with the monsters attempting bull rushes and a few times with them ignoring them. You can see that even in optimal terrain with monsters that get a buff to the ability, bull rush is a chump move.

It's not in the game as a genuine tactical move to rearrange monsters; it's meant as a fix to allow players to get out of situations where they're genuinely jammed against a wall with no movement options.

If you must improve Bull Rush, the easiest way to do it is to make it a move action rather than a standard.
#3
Natebone
Jul 02, 2009 8:49:36 Good points, GregT. The most important being game balance.

I have not DMed a 4E session yet, but as a player I focus on limiting as much as possible the movement options of monsters to protect the squishy party mage, or limit their ability to bring their full strength to bear on the party (I play a controller-like cleric). Between me, our full controller wizard, and our dwarf fighter, we can manage some decent mob control.

I was amazed after doing some research at how many large monsters actually do not have an ability to move players around on the board except by using Bull Rush. And my DM's frustration becomes apparent when he has a group of trolls or ogres stacked up in a hall with no way to get past the dwarf ;)

So, I see your point about it being originally designed for players, NOT monsters. In fact, I can see the designers thinking that using the tactics my group uses to rack and stack opponents for easier destruction is admirable and praiseworthy (i.e., how we are suppose to do it). But then the old DM side of me also sees my current DM's point that his monsters (who don't have at-will powers that include some sort of forced movement) are ridiculous if they can't Bull Rush a dwarf, especially if they are even larger than Large-sized.

Perhaps a better solution is to leave Bull Rush alone and introduce a new feat that a DM can apply to monsters where appropriate to improve their Bull Rush. It could be called "Greater Bull Rush" and it would move an opponent 2 squares instead of 1 on a successful attempt. This would not be unfair to the wee players, at least, and it would not be as favorable to gargantuan monsters as my first proposal (who most likely all have better options as you pointed out).

While I was intrigued by your suggestion of changing Bull Rush to a Move action instead of a Standard, I think that would be unbalancing. I also think the act of Bull Rushing should remain a Standard because it does involve an attack, just like Grab, and thus requires a little more concentration and effort than moving around.
#4
bone_naga
Jul 02, 2009 10:20:08 Make it so all creatures larger than medium get a bonus to bull rush. For each size category of the attacker above medium, allow it to push the target 1 extra square. It gives you the general idea you seemed to be going for, but doesn't punish small characters more than medium characters. Or just go with your second proposal, depending on how much you want to favor the really big guys.

And for the most part I agree that it is not the best tactical move for a monster, but there are exceptions. There was one battle where the PCs were able to funnel all the attackers into a choke point and destroy them. It took a few rounds (stupid dice), but once one of the PCs were pushed back, the monsters were able to flood into the gap and started ****ing **** up. However, if you're planning on Bull Rushing being an issue during combat, I would suggest just giving the monster an attack with a push effect.
#5
gregt_314
Jul 02, 2009 19:02:15 By the way, the typical answers for monsters who are stacked up in a hallway and can't get past a dwarf is to back up. Pick their ideal terrain and make the players come to them.

It is an issue, though. If you look at the published modules you'll see there's almost no encounter spaces that provide these kind of choke points without giving monsters a chance to go around and get behind the players.
#6
lord_qzip
Jul 04, 2009 13:15:50 The only thing our group has done to improve bull rush is this. Unlike other forced movement, if you were to push an enemy into a trap, over a cliff, etc, they do not get a save. They simply go over/into a world of pain.

My players now respect that forced movement abilities were not made for knocking enemies off cliffs and were, instead, primarily made for tactical rearrangement of enemies, but, they have the old stand-by bull rush for when you really want to knock that guy off a train/through the window/into the fire place/etc.

It probably helps that EVERY TIME I've been given a save for forced movement, I've made it (over 20 attempts). I don't fudge anything either. I roll it in front of my party and they're just like, "Really? Again?" And have decided that the dice gods don't want them to force move anyone into rushing rivers and such (which is where about 10 of the attempts happened, trying to knock one guy into a river, and why I changed the rule).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Natebone Jul 01, 2009 19:22:08	My DM has on more than one occasion voiced his contempt for the rules governing Bull Rush. Bull Rush is fine as written when it is between two medium or same-sized creatures. However, if it is between two creatures with a size differential, the rules for Bull Rush seem lacking at best and absurd at worst. Then throw in the Dwarf racial ability, Stand Your Ground, which reduces any forced movement by 1 (which is all that Bull Rush currently does), and the situation becomes comic if employed by a dwarf against a gargantuan creature's Bull Rush. So, I am offering for consideration and feedback an idea for altering Bull Rush to take size differential into account, which as a consequence affects the Stand Your Ground racial ability in relation to that combat action. I will also offer some recommendations on similar monster abilities that affect forced movement. I propose that a successful Bull Rush attempt pushes the target 1 square plus 1 additional square for every difference in size. A Bull Rush will always have the potential to push a target at least 1 square if it is possible at all (usually you cannot Bull Rush an opponent more than one size larger). Like most forced movement, you can choose to push your target fewer squares. Also, a creature cannot push a target with a successful Bull Rush more squares than it has in its standard move. With a successful Bull Rush attempt, a gargantuan creature could, for example, push a medium target up to 4 squares (or a dwarf for 3). This is calculated as 1 + 3 [gargantuan is three size-categories larger than medium]. This change greatly benefits larger creatures, which are, of course, mostly monsters. Some of these monsters have powers that are better than Bull Rush for moving enemies around the board. But with this change, Bull Rush is at least a viable tactic again for everyone and covers those monsters that do not have such powers. Of course, ultimately, this house rule makes life harder for adventurers and will make some dwarves bitter, but they will still fair better than other player races against Bull Rush. One way to compensate players a little is to eliminate forced movement immunities enjoyed by a few monsters (such as the Gorgon). But I would grant creatures with these immunities a “Stand Your Ground” like reduction to forced movement equal to 2 or more squares. Without this change, you retain the risk of a similarly absurd situation where an ancient red dragon (or a polymorphed player) cannot Bull Rush a gorgon. This proposed change to Bull Rush does not in any way wish to alter the rules governing forced movement into hindering terrain (i.e., squares that would cause damage, such as fire, falling, etc.). I welcome all comments on this proposed change to Bull Rush, except the argument that no change is required because D&D is a fantasy world with magic and all manner of things that alter what we in real life understand as the laws of physics. This argument has already been considered and tossed out by my DM and myself. Magic has a revered role in D&D, but some laws of physics are more difficult to let go of. It is a matter of personal taste and DM choice how to strike the balance between these two often conflicting forces.
#2 gregt_314 Jul 01, 2009 19:33:42	The main issues are: (1) you're nerfing halflings and gnomes, which, let's be honest, did NOT need to be any weaker, and (2) in 99.9% of cases a creature of Large size or higher will have something vastly more effective to do than bull rush, even with your proposed modifications. Presuming you're not a DM that allows pushes to result in auto-kill situations for players, then there's just hardly any situations where a single target multi-square push requiring a to-hit roll that does no innate damage is a better option for a monster than using their at-will. Just as an example of the truth of that, take the Torture Chamber room from Keep on the Shadowfell, which is designed to demonstrate the bull rush rules and has plenty of damaging terrain to push people into, and run it a few times with the monsters attempting bull rushes and a few times with them ignoring them. You can see that even in optimal terrain with monsters that get a buff to the ability, bull rush is a chump move. It's not in the game as a genuine tactical move to rearrange monsters; it's meant as a fix to allow players to get out of situations where they're genuinely jammed against a wall with no movement options. If you must improve Bull Rush, the easiest way to do it is to make it a move action rather than a standard.
#3 Natebone Jul 02, 2009 8:49:36	Good points, GregT. The most important being game balance. I have not DMed a 4E session yet, but as a player I focus on limiting as much as possible the movement options of monsters to protect the squishy party mage, or limit their ability to bring their full strength to bear on the party (I play a controller-like cleric). Between me, our full controller wizard, and our dwarf fighter, we can manage some decent mob control. I was amazed after doing some research at how many large monsters actually do not have an ability to move players around on the board except by using Bull Rush. And my DM's frustration becomes apparent when he has a group of trolls or ogres stacked up in a hall with no way to get past the dwarf ;) So, I see your point about it being originally designed for players, NOT monsters. In fact, I can see the designers thinking that using the tactics my group uses to rack and stack opponents for easier destruction is admirable and praiseworthy (i.e., how we are suppose to do it). But then the old DM side of me also sees my current DM's point that his monsters (who don't have at-will powers that include some sort of forced movement) are ridiculous if they can't Bull Rush a dwarf, especially if they are even larger than Large-sized. Perhaps a better solution is to leave Bull Rush alone and introduce a new feat that a DM can apply to monsters where appropriate to improve their Bull Rush. It could be called "Greater Bull Rush" and it would move an opponent 2 squares instead of 1 on a successful attempt. This would not be unfair to the wee players, at least, and it would not be as favorable to gargantuan monsters as my first proposal (who most likely all have better options as you pointed out). While I was intrigued by your suggestion of changing Bull Rush to a Move action instead of a Standard, I think that would be unbalancing. I also think the act of Bull Rushing should remain a Standard because it does involve an attack, just like Grab, and thus requires a little more concentration and effort than moving around.
#4 bone_naga Jul 02, 2009 10:20:08	Make it so all creatures larger than medium get a bonus to bull rush. For each size category of the attacker above medium, allow it to push the target 1 extra square. It gives you the general idea you seemed to be going for, but doesn't punish small characters more than medium characters. Or just go with your second proposal, depending on how much you want to favor the really big guys. And for the most part I agree that it is not the best tactical move for a monster, but there are exceptions. There was one battle where the PCs were able to funnel all the attackers into a choke point and destroy them. It took a few rounds (stupid dice), but once one of the PCs were pushed back, the monsters were able to flood into the gap and started **ing ** up. However, if you're planning on Bull Rushing being an issue during combat, I would suggest just giving the monster an attack with a push effect.
#5 gregt_314 Jul 02, 2009 19:02:15	By the way, the typical answers for monsters who are stacked up in a hallway and can't get past a dwarf is to back up. Pick their ideal terrain and make the players come to them. It is an issue, though. If you look at the published modules you'll see there's almost no encounter spaces that provide these kind of choke points without giving monsters a chance to go around and get behind the players.
#6 lord_qzip Jul 04, 2009 13:15:50	The only thing our group has done to improve bull rush is this. Unlike other forced movement, if you were to push an enemy into a trap, over a cliff, etc, they do not get a save. They simply go over/into a world of pain. My players now respect that forced movement abilities were not made for knocking enemies off cliffs and were, instead, primarily made for tactical rearrangement of enemies, but, they have the old stand-by bull rush for when you really want to knock that guy off a train/through the window/into the fire place/etc. It probably helps that EVERY TIME I've been given a save for forced movement, I've made it (over 20 attempts). I don't fudge anything either. I roll it in front of my party and they're just like, "Really? Again?" And have decided that the dice gods don't want them to force move anyone into rushing rivers and such (which is where about 10 of the attempts happened, trying to knock one guy into a river, and why I changed the rule).