So i was wondering if it would be overpowered to allow the use of wizards cantrips in exchange for a feat. Maybe two feats? The seem more flavorful anyhow- and i can see warlocks and some clerics doing them. Would this be a especially bad thing to have as an option?
You could make it one cantrip used as an encounter power instead of at will, perhaps. Although for light and mage hand, I don't think that changing it to an encounter would actually change anything.
i would either make the prereq wizard training, giving you full access to all of a wizard's cantrips, or make a feat that gives you access to 1/int bonus cantrips (minimum 1).
well, they currently have low level items (3-5 ish) that allow access to cantrips in the Adventurer's Vault.
Any of them give Prestidigitation?
power (at-will) - standard action - mage hand
power (at-will) - standard action - prestidigitation
You could make it one cantrip used as an encounter power instead of at will, perhaps. Although for light and mage hand, I don't think that changing it to an encounter would actually change anything.
Okay, so since cantrips do basically nothing, the character can now do nothing once per encounter for the low, low price of a feat?
A++++
in my area prestidigitation is often called "wish lite" because it's generally a very versatile cantrip.
groping... er... mage hand is useful when a 10 ft pole just isn't enough... or too obvious.
ghost sound is a great distraction technique.
light is light.
Okay, so since cantrips do basically nothing, the character can now do nothing once per encounter for the low, low price of a feat?
A++++
I'm sorry, but if I understand you correctly it is your opinion that having a light any time you need it is of no benefit? And since light lasts for five minutes, there would be a very minor difference between having it as an at-will and having it as an encounter power.
Or did you mean that cantrips do basically nothing in combat? I guess that is sort of true (although having no light in combat when you need it would be rather gimping). In that case, I would compare it to the linguist feat which gives you 3 new languages, which is virtually no benefit in combat.
A+++++
As long as there's no wizard in your group, I don't see a problem allowing the player to do the same, take two cantrips of their choice for a feat. I'd require the prerequisite of multiclass into wizard, like my DM did, but that's your call.
I'm sorry, but if I understand you correctly it is your opinion that having a light any time you need it is of no benefit? And since light lasts for five minutes, there would be a very minor difference between having it as an at-will and having it as an encounter power.
So every cantrip should suffer for the situational benefits of Light? If I were designing a feat that gave cantrips, I'd be tempted to give all of them at will and make the feat count as an alternate multiclass feat.
Or did you mean that cantrips do basically nothing in combat? I guess that is sort of true (although having no light in combat when you need it would be rather gimping). In that case, I would compare it to the linguist feat which gives you 3 new languages, which is virtually no benefit in combat.
At least Linguist gives you no particular benefit at will.
So every cantrip should suffer for the situational benefits of Light? If I were designing a feat that gave cantrips, I'd be tempted to give all of them at will and make the feat count as an alternate multiclass feat.
At least Linguist gives you no particular benefit at will.
Ah, so were quibbling about how many cantrips per feat and whether they should be converted to encounters or not. No prob. I only suggested the conversion because I thought it would be in-line with the multiclass ability of getting one at-will attack from the new class as an encounter power. Personally, it would seem to me to be a little unbalancing to get an entire class feature unchanged for a single feat. Especially, one that allows you four different at-wills. On the other hand, I don't see how it could seriously screw up combat balance to do so.
I say, if you want Cantrips, play a Wizard. Handing out class features willy-nilly destroys game balance and makes classes less unique, in my eyes.
But I like Celtic bards, and cantrip magic is their specialty. (it's the source of the word cantrip!)
They weren't magicians, just entertainers.
But I like Celtic bards, and cantrip magic is their specialty. (it's the source of the word cantrip!)
They weren't magicians, just entertainers.
Play a Wizard and flavor him as a bard, then.
My opinion is just that class features, no matter how trivial they seem, should not be handed out with relatively low cost. It seems power-creepy to me.
Play a Wizard and flavor him as a bard, then.
My opinion is just that class features, no matter how trivial they seem, should not be handed out with relatively low cost. It seems power-creepy to me.
That works about half the time.
Prime Shot is a class feature, which class does prime shot belong to?
wait... did you just speak ill of prestidigitation, mage hand, ghost sound and light?
in my area prestidigitation is often called "wish lite" because it's generally a very versatile cantrip.
groping... er... mage hand is useful when a 10 ft pole just isn't enough... or too obvious.
ghost sound is a great distraction technique.
light is light.
any player that can not abuse cantrips .. particulary mage hand should not be playing a wizard
Ah, so were quibbling about how many cantrips per feat and whether they should be converted to encounters or not. No prob. I only suggested the conversion because I thought it would be in-line with the multiclass ability of getting one at-will attack from the new class as an encounter power. Personally, it would seem to me to be a little unbalancing to get an entire class feature unchanged for a single feat. Especially, one that allows you four different at-wills. On the other hand, I don't see how it could seriously screw up combat balance to do so.
If there was a multiclass feat that allowed all cantrips, it would give Rogues, for example, an incentive to multiclass into Wizard. They could use some of the tricks it allows them to do. As it stands, the Wizard multiclassing feat is only good for Fighters (for multi-marking) and Tactical Warlords (because Intelligence => good attacks).
I agree with Lord_Ventnor's sentiment that some things should remain special, and I actually think that giving them as part of a multiclassing feats preserves them in just that manner. After all, if you multiclass into Wizard, then you are a Wizard.
If there was a multiclass feat that allowed all cantrips, it would give Rogues, for example, an incentive to multiclass into Wizard. They could use some of the tricks it allows them to do. As it stands, the Wizard multiclassing feat is only good for Fighters (for multi-marking) and Tactical Warlords (because Intelligence => good attacks).
I agree with Lord_Ventnor's sentiment that some things should remain special, and I actually think that giving them as part of a multiclassing feats preserves them in just that manner. After all, if you multiclass into Wizard, then you are a Wizard.
i have had some fun adding wizard to my swordmage
i have had some fun adding wizard to my swordmage
Conceded based on the same reason as the Tactical Warlord (high Intelligence).
Or maybe you could just expand the wizard mc feat to include the use of the cantrips as encounter powers in addition to the 1 attack power it already gives you, since the cantrips are basically non-combat stuff.
(Anything you could do with them in a fight would pretty much be the sub-optimal choice compared to popping somebody with your attack at-will.)
I agree with JmG, cantrips are highly abusable. Weirdly, cantrips are just as useful at Epic levels as they are at Heroic 1. Besides being flavorful, theyr simply good Utility spells.
Id have to say the most powerful cantrip is Mage Hand, then Light, then Prestidigitation, then Ghost Sound, but theyr all potent - especially At-Will.
Conceded based on the same reason as the Tactical Warlord (high Intelligence).
I had not actually thought about mixing it into a tac warlord, but that could be fun
I agree with AwD, getting a cantrip feat after getting the Wizard multiclass feat seems fine. Maybe give-up one At-Will power for all four At-Will cantrips? Maybe give up one Utility power for one At-Will cantrip? Im not sure what the exact value is yet.
I agree with JmG, cantrips are highly abusable. Weirdly, cantrips are just as useful at Epic levels as they are at Heroic 1. Besides being flavorful, theyr simply good Utility spells.
Id have to say the most powerful cantrip is Mage Hand, then Light, then Prestidigitation, then Ghost Sound, but theyr all potent - especially At-Will.
the gnoll article has ghost sound as a possable gnoll feat, i do not see why one could not have the individual cantrips as individual feats
I agree with AwD, getting a cantrip feat after getting the Wizard multiclass feat seems fine. Maybe give-up one At-Will power for all four At-Will cantrips? Maybe give up one Utility power for one At-Will cantrip? Im not sure what the exact value is yet.
I agree with JmG, cantrips are highly abusable. Weirdly, cantrips are just as useful at Epic levels as they are at Heroic 1. Besides being flavorful, theyr simply good Utility spells.
Id have to say the most powerful cantrip is Mage Hand, then Light, then Prestidigitation, the Ghost Sound, but theyr all potent - especially At-Will.
Considering that there are TWO magic items that give out two cantrips each, one of which doubles the range of cantrips (!!!), with both being low level, and neither coming remotely close to unbalancing the game, it isn't necessary to force a character to trade an at-will for cantrips. I think a simple multiclass feat that gives you two cantrips, in full, is more than sufficiently balanced. Three feats, and you get one skill, one at-will-as-an-encounter power, and all four cantrips, is totally not going to break the game. Sacrificing an at-will attack power is way too high a cost for cantrips, as cool as cantrips are. Two feats, plus a multiclass feat, for one full middle-tier class feature seems eminently fair to me.
As for the order of power of feats, wow, I must heartily disagree. I'd say Mage Hand and Ghost Sound are tied for first, then Prestidigitation, then Light. Ghost Sound is soooo powerful as a roleplaying device, and is incredibly versatile in a huge variety of non-combat situations. As a distraction, as a means of communication in dangerous areas, as a way to bluff your way out of a situation, and much more, Ghost Sound is simply awesome! :D
JmG: the gnoll article has ghost sound as a possable gnoll feat, i do not see why one could not have the individual cantrips as individual feats.
I didnt notice that. Could the Gnoll get Ghost Sound At-Will?
If so, Ghost Sound is really too powerful for a feat. I consider GhS the least powerful of the four cantrips, but even Ghost Sound can become broken. It can completely break the game, simply by misdirecting a powerful threat away!
Situationally, these cantrips are powerful, game-breaking spells.
For some characters, that extra free hand can deal significant damage in combat. Also, the off hand can carry an Orb, can give a Swordmage a +3 AC, or so on.
Light is a powerful spell.
Anyway, he proposes that characters that take Wizard for their Paragon Path should also get all the cantrips. Thats reasonable in every way.
I agree with AwD, getting a cantrip feat after getting the Wizard multiclass feat seems fine. Maybe give-up one At-Will power for all four At-Will cantrips? Maybe give up one Utility power for one At-Will cantrip? Im not sure what the exact value is yet.
I meant giving all of them as part of a single multiclass feat. Meaning you take one feat, get four cantrips and count as a Wizard for purposes of feats and paragon paths.
I didnt notice that. Could the Gnoll get Ghost Sound At-Will?
If so, Ghost Sound is really too powerful for a feat. I consider GhS the least powerful of the four cantrips, but even Ghost Sound can become broken. It can completely break the game, simply by misdirecting a powerful threat away!
Alternative viewpoint: Butcher's Lure is a horrible feat. Nobody in their right mind would take it if they were trying to optimize their character.
Tct: Ghost Sound is soooo powerful as a roleplaying device, and is incredibly versatile in a huge variety of non-combat situations. As a distraction, as a means of communication in dangerous areas, as a way to bluff your way out of a situation, and much more, Ghost Sound is simply awesome!
I tend to evaluate powers by their combat potential, but I agree, Ghost Sound is truly awesome.
AwD: I meant giving all of them as part of a single multiclass feat. Meaning you take one feat, get four cantrips and count as a Wizard for purposes of feats and paragon paths.
One feat for all cantrips? At Will?
NO WAY!EACH cantrip - at the very least - is as powerful as a Utility power.
The fact its At-Will makes it BETTER than an Encounter or Daily Utility.
Feats arent powerful. A feat cant get an extra Encounter or Daily Utility power - neither can it get a cantrip.
Maybe a feat (without a power swap) could let a character choose one cantrip as a Daily - but even that Id have to think about more carefully.
I didnt notice that. Could the Gnoll get Ghost Sound At-Will?
If so, Ghost Sound is really too powerful for a feat. I consider GhS the least powerful of the four cantrips, but even Ghost Sound can become broken. It can completely break the game, simply by misdirecting a powerful threat away!
Situationally, these cantrips are powerful, game-breaking spells.
pretty sure it was at will, I know the aticle said to make sure the dm was ok with the feat
I meant giving all of them as part of a single multiclass feat. Meaning you take one feat, get four cantrips and count as a Wizard for purposes of feats and paragon paths.
Alternative viewpoint: Butcher's Lure is a horrible feat. Nobody in their right mind would take it if they were trying to optimize their character.
when I get a chance to make a gnoll I will most certianly take it.
ghost sound is vastly useful.
not every great ability is directly tied to combat & ghost sound has many useful uses. ,,, SPOCK!!! SPOCK HELP ME
I tend to evaluate powers by their combat potential, but I agree, Ghost Sound is truly awesome.
I don't, because D&D is a roleplaying game, not a pure combat simulation game. ;) There are too many occasions in an RPG in which combat doesn't even come up, even with a premade adventure or LFR-type of scenario, since the players can all choose to do something completely outside of the realms of combat that a DM isn't entirely prepared for. But the number of times that Ghost Sound might be useful? Oooh, a whole lot more often in my experience.
I don't, because D&D is a roleplaying game, not a pure combat simulation game. ;) There are too many occasions in an RPG in which combat doesn't even come up, even with a premade adventure or LFR-type of scenario, since the players can all choose to do something completely outside of the realms of combat that a DM isn't entirely prepared for. But the number of times that Ghost Sound might be useful? Oooh, a whole lot more often in my experience.
for those of you that do not grasp the usefulness of ghost sound, think on this
rng 10
1 object or unoccupied sq
anywhere from whisper to loud yelling or fighting.
nonvocal sounds can be created , if whispered can be quite enough that only people by the target or sq can hear it.
can anyone here honestly not think of a ton of great uses for this?
One feat for all cantrips? At Will?
EACH cantrip - at the very least - is as powerful as a Utility power.
Not even close.
The fact its At-Will makes it BETTER than an Encounter or Daily Utility.
No, the fact that it's at will makes it usable more often than an encounter or daily power. It has no bearing on the magnitude of the mechanics within the power.
Feats arent powerful. A feat cant get an extra Encounter or Daily Utility power - neither can it get a cantrip.
Yet there's plenty of instances to prove you wrong. The Wizard multiclass feat gives you a free at will power as an encounter power. At least that power has a reasonable combat application (most notably multimarking). The only real strength of the feat I'm proposing is that it allows you to take Wizard paragon paths or multiclass further.
Maybe a feat (without a power swap) could let a character choose one cantrip as a Daily - but even that Id have to think about more carefully.
DAILY? That is the most arbitrary thing I've ever heard.
AwD: DAILY? That is the most arbitrary thing I've ever heard.
LOL! You obviously havent been in a campaign where players habitually abuse cantrips. Its almost a sport.
Think about it. Prestidigitation alone can ignite fires at will, create a brief facial disguise, vanish an item during an inspection, and so on and so on. One single cantrip can do all of this and much more. At Will.
AwD: The Wizard multiclass feat gives you a free at will power as an encounter power. At least that power has a reasonable combat application (most notably multimarking).
OK, one At-Will cantrip as an Encounter power, is probably thinkable. But it would have to happen AFTER the player has already invested in the Wizard Multiclass feat. In other words, the cantrip feat would have to have the Wizard Multiclass feat ("Arcane Initiate") as a prerequisite, like the other Multiclass power swap feats do.
Ghost Sound:
1. Cast Ghost Sound to lure the gnoll away from the gate.
2. Run in and free the food.
2a. Run in and get beat.
Congratulations! You have used a cantrip where a rock would have done the same job!
Light:
1. Cast Light.
2. You can now see.
2a. You can now see the gnoll standing one foot away from your face.
Congratulations! You are no longer at a disadvantage that could get you killed and thus have less chance of dying and thereby having less fun!
Mage Hand:
1. Cast Mage Hand.
2. Move chair.
3. Sit down.
Congratulations, lazy-ass! At least you're not getting beaten by a gnoll!
Prestidigitation:
1. Cast Prestidigitation.
2. Sparks flare up in the gnoll's face.
3. Get beaten by the now angry gnoll.
Congratulations! You have overestimated the combat value of Prestidigitation! It cannot, in fact, blind anything.
LOL! You obviously havent been in a campaign where players habitually abuse cantrips. Its almost a sport.
Correction: I've never been in a campaign that broke the rules by allowing cantrip abuse.
Think about it. Prestidigitation alone can ignite fires at will, create a brief facial disguise, vanish an item during an inspection, and so on and so on. One single cantrip can do all of this and much more. At Will.
Nothing you create with this cantrip can deal damage, serve as a weapon or a tool, or hinder another creature’s
actions. This cantrip cannot duplicate the effect of any other power.
So no, you can't set creatures on fire, you can't disguise yourself (changeling racial power, no duplication, etc.).
Making an item vanish is a big freaking "So what?" for me. The Wizard can do it for free.
OK, one At-Will cantrip as an Encounter power, is probably thinkable. But it would have to happen AFTER the player has already invested in the Wizard Multiclass feat. In other words, the cantrip feat would have to have the Wizard Multiclass feat ("Arcane Initiate") as a prerequisite, like the other Multiclass power swap feats do.
No, you're being arbitrary again. I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. The rules forbid basically any abuse you could ever think of, and what you're suggesting is horrible from a balance perspective (and I mean horrible; I don't use the word lightly).
You could even kill one Gnoll guard, dress up in its armor, wrap a cloak around your body, and use prestidigitation to disguise yourself as a Gnoll (as a sustainable minor action). Even tho the disguise wouldnt survive scrutiny, you could still get to where you need to be.
You can create an image out of nothing. A rudimentary mask.
Making an item vanish is a big freaking "So what?" for me.
Make a KEY vanish. A GEM. A stolen MAGIC RING. Etc. Note this item can be 2 squares away (10'), thus you dont actually need to hold it. You can use prestidigitation to prevent someone else from noticing it.
Cantrips arent Attack spells. Theyr Utility spells. But theyr powerful Utility spells.
AwD, if theres a Gnoll outside the house, and a Gnoll inside - depending on the extenuating abilities - you could use ghost sound to make one Gnoll insult the other, and have them kill eachother.
You could also throw a rock in one gnoll's head.
Or realize that gnolls are not stupid.
Or you could simply set their house on fire.
No you can't.
Or whatever. There are soooooooooo many things you could do with the right cantrip for the right job.
Yeah, and none of them incredibly useful.
You could even kill one Gnoll guard, dress up in its armor, wrap a cloak around your body, and use prestidigitation to disguise yourself as a Gnoll (as a sustainable minor action).
As said before, no you cannot disguise yourself. AT ALL.
You can create an image out of nothing. A rudimentary mask.
Which will do what, exactly, considering that it dissolves at the end of your next turn and you have to create a new one in front of the creature you're trying to bluff? A mask is a mask. This isn't a cartoon we're talking about.
Make a KEY vanish. A GEM. A stolen MAGIC RING. Etc.
What's the point of making it vanish? So the person next to you doesn't see it, even though he clearly saw you cast the spell and assume that you're going to steal it?
And even considering your argument, what's stopping the Wizard from becoming ridiculously overpowered if the cantrips are so awesome? Oh, right, the fact that they aren't awesome.
Some cantrip ******ry I'm imagining right now:
Ghost Sound:
1. Cast Ghost Sound to lure the gnoll away from the gate.
2. Run in and free the food.
2a. Run in and get beat.
Congratulations! You have used a cantrip where a rock would have done the same job!
Light:
1. Cast Light.
2. You can now see.
2a. You can now see the gnoll standing one foot away from your face.
Congratulations! You are no longer at a disadvantage that could get you killed and thus have less chance of dying and thereby having less fun!
Mage Hand:
1. Cast Mage Hand.
2. Move chair.
3. Sit down.
Congratulations, lazy-ass! At least you're not getting beaten by a gnoll!
Prestidigitation:
1. Cast Prestidigitation.
2. Sparks flare up in the gnoll's face.
3. Get beat by the now angry gnoll.
Congratulations! You have overestimated the combat value of Prestidigitation! It cannot, in fact, blind anything.
You must be new to gaming,
a few quick ideas on ghost sound.
#1 make the gaurds hear one of the members of the patrol you ambushed outside there door so they let you in. "with a bluff check"
#2 have the spy for the inqusition overhere your mark speaking herasy or treason.
#3 message across a distance without alerting the enemy.
#4 make money as an entertainer
#5 used to scare npcs with a monsterious growl in the night "with intimadate"
there are more.
Light is useful when a dm actually enforces that the party have a light source.
Mage hand anyone can come up with uses for a 25 feet distance able to lift & move 20 lbs hand.
grabbing a lever, keys or anything else that is outta reach.
safely opening a container.
pushing items from a distance when you cannot or when it is best that you do not physicaly cross the distance.
lifting dangerious objects safely.
Prestidigitation cannot be used to damage but it can be used to start fires, or hide items from gaurds that are searching you,
get you a quick use minor item for varies role play reasons "pen, comb what
have you.
it can clean off all traces that you were in a fight , keep you nice and tidy regaurdless of where you are etc.
there is a lot more to gaming then just fighting.
You can have upto three Prestidigitation effects going on at once.
Or steal ANY small unattended item you need.
A Thievery skill check could let you steal something on someones possession, from 10 feet away.
You must be new to gaming,
Classy. Also, ironic.
#1 make the gaurds hear one of the members of the patrol you ambushed outside there door so they let you in. "with a bluff check"
Or you can knock the door down. Or use Knock.
#2 have the spy for the inqusition overhere your mark speaking herasy or treason.
#3 message across a distance without alerting the enemy.
#4 make money as an entertainer
#5 used to scare npcs with a monsterious growl in the night "with intimadate"
there are more.
Light is useful when a dm actually enforces that the party have a light source.
Mage hand anyone can come up with uses for a 25 feet distance able to lift & move 20 lbs hand.
grabbing a lever, keys or anything else that is outta reach.
safely opening a container.
pushing items from a distance when you cannot or when it is best that you do not physicaly cross the distance.
lifting dangerious objects safely.
The rest of those, again: So ****ing what? If a Wizard can do it for free, then there is no reason to limit other characters from accessing those abilities.
Prestidigitation cannot be used to damage but it can be used to start fires, or hide items from gaurds that are searching you,
First, no you can't set anything on fire that is larger than a small campfire. Two, you can't deal damage, so nothing burns even if you manage to do so.
Two, what kind of moron would cast Prestidigitation to hide something in front of the people they're trying to hide it from. 'Cause, you know, that's basically what you have to do if you want to smuggle it using Prestidigitation.
get you a quick use minor item for varies role play reasons "pen, comb what
have you.
Wrong.
Nothing you create with this cantrip can deal damage, serve as a weapon or a tool, or hinder another creature’s actions. This cantrip cannot duplicate the effect of any other power.
Even if you could, why would that be worth a feat?
it can clean off all traces that you were in a fight , keep you nice and tidy regaurdless of where you are etc.
And all this makes it worth a feat... how?
there is a lot more to gaming then just fighting.
And none of that pertains to game balance. To see what is balanced, you test the limits. The limit here extends to underwhelming tricks.
You can use Mage Hand to telekineze a key toward you - AND use Prestidigitation to make it invisible AT THE SAME TIME. If you use your Standard, Move and Minor actions, you can ALSO create an image with an second casting of the Prestidigitation cantrip to make the key seem like its still there, and hasnt gone anywhere at all.
You can have upto three Prestidigitation effects going on at once.
Or steal ANY small unattended item you need.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand again, answer my question: Why should the Wizard be the only one to be able to do this?
Plus, again with the utter stupidity of casting a spell in front of the person you're stealing from.
A Thievery skill check could let you steal something on someones possession, from 10 feet away.
No. The power does not state that you can do that, so you can't.
A quick use minor item for varies role play reasons "pen, comb what
have you.
Actually, you can.
Tho you cant have a "tool" per se, you can have an IMAGE of a pen (Prestidigitation) that leaves a mark that lasts for upto an hour (second casting of Prestidigitation).
Likewise you can have an image of comb (Prestidigitation) that actually cleans up your hair (second casting of Prestidigitation).
By the way, with a bluff check, you can use Prestidigitation to create a false signature on a document on the fly. Think Doctor Who and telepathic paper.
Actually, you can.
Tho you cant have a "tool" per se, you can have an IMAGE of a pen (Prestidigitation) that leaves a mark that lasts for upto an hour (second casting of Prestidigitation).
Likewise you can have an image of comb (Prestidigitation) that actually cleans up your hair (second casting of Prestidigitation).
And you spent a feat to be able to do it. Have I entered the Twilight Zone here? Why can't you people realize what utter crap these cantrips are? You're justifying yourselves with "I CAN COMB MY HAIR BY CREATING AN ILLUSION OF A COMB AND THEN MAGICALLY COMBING MY HAIR WITHOUT USING THE COMB."
Plus, again with the utter stupidity of casting a spell in front of the person you're stealing from.
There are no verbal nor somatic nor material components. There are situations where these spells can be cast discretely.
And you spent a feat to be able to do it. "I CAN COMB MY HAIR BY CREATING AN ILLUSION OF A COMB AND THEN MAGICALLY COMBING MY HAIR WITHOUT USING THE COMB."
You said he was wrong. My point is, he was right.
You could also throw a rock in one gnoll's head.
Or realize that gnolls are not stupid.
No you can't.
Yeah, and none of them incredibly useful.
As said before, no you cannot disguise yourself. AT ALL.
Which will do what, exactly, considering that it dissolves at the end of your next turn and you have to create a new one in front of the creature you're trying to bluff? A mask is a mask. This isn't a cartoon we're talking about.
Yes you can set fires, this is stated in the rules you cannot use it to attack but you can set a small fire which will grow in to a large one.
you can not use it to duplicate disguise self which is a +5, but most dm's I have met would rule that you could use it as modifier to your bluff say +1 or +2
Ghost sound is good enough that the designers felt the need to make sure you clear it with your dm.
the fact that you find none of the many things you can do with cantrips useful says a lot about you and your gaming style but most players can find many uses for it.
What's the point of making it vanish? So the person next to you doesn't see it, even though he clearly saw you cast the spell and assume that you're going to steal it?
And even considering your argument, what's stopping the Wizard from becoming ridiculously overpowered if the cantrips are so awesome? Oh, right, the fact that they aren't awesome.
for example to hide it from a quick search.
where does it say you can see the wizard casting cantrips?
they are not ridiculously overpowered but they are often very useful.
Classy. Also, ironic.
Or you can knock the door down. Or use Knock.
The rest of those, again: So ****ing what? If a Wizard can do it for free, then there is no reason to limit other characters from accessing those abilities.
First, no you can't set anything on fire that is larger than a small campfire. Two, you can't deal damage, so nothing burns even if you manage to do so.
Two, what kind of moron would cast Prestidigitation to hide something in front of the people they're trying to hide it from. 'Cause, you know, that's basically what you have to do if you want to smuggle it using Prestidigitation.
Wrong.
Even if you could, why would that be worth a feat?
And all this makes it worth a feat... how?
And none of that pertains to game balance. To see what is balanced, you test the limits. The limit here extends to underwhelming tricks.
yes they are absolutly worth a feat, more honestly.
as for my statement that you must be new to gaming,
you are coming off this way or are at least acting like combat is the only thing done in d&d.
there are times when you cannot knock down the door, when brute force is not the awnser this is a lesson most gamers learn quickly, usually with in year or so tops.
I have been gaming since 82 and got out of my hack & slash only days after jr high.
not that there is anything wrong with hack & slash, I enjoy killing and looting as much as the next gamer.
But try to understand a lot of us like more complex games then just hack & slash.
JmG: you can not use it to duplicate disguise self which is a +5, but most dm's I have met would rule that you could use it as modifier to your bluff say +1 or +2
Actually, we dont add a bonus. A successful Bluff check simply means the disguise worked. For example, when the mask-wearer walked across, the other others simply assumed em was one of them. The beauty of the cantrip, is you can take on a disguise more conveniently.
they are not ridiculously overpowered but they are often very useful.
If they're included in a multiclass feat, that means they require a level of commitment that some characters may not be interested in. Those who do take the feat are rewarded with numerous small tricks as a concession.
Actually, we dont add a bonus. A successful Bluff check simply means the disguise worked. For example, when the mask-wearer walked across, the other others simply assumed em was one of them. The beauty of the cantrip, is you can take on a disguise more conveniently.
good way to do it
I present the coup de grace.
If they're included in a multiclass feat, that means they require a level of commitment that some characters may not be interested in. Those who do take the feat are rewarded with numerous small tricks as a concession.
they are a bit to good as an add on to multiclassing.
maybe as a seconday multiclass feat
I present the coup de grace.
If they're included in a multiclass feat, that means they require a level of commitment that some characters may not be interested in. Those who do take the feat are rewarded with numerous small tricks as a concession.
I applogize for previous post, I was perhaps ruder then I intended
But say we use it to guage the power of a cantrip.
The "Hedge Wizards Gloves" give Mage Hand and Prestidigitation. However its considered a 4th-level magic item. (Not first level.) Moreover, having these powers permanently would be like the permanent expenditure of a magic-item body slot. So to have BOTH the body slot AND the cantrips is even more valuable. And in principle, having a permanent ability - as opposed to being dependent on a magic item - is also more valuable. And it costs money that could have been spent on another magic item. So the value of the magic item itself is also a value.
Point-blank, its not even thinkable for a Nonwizard to have cantrips At-Will at low levels - in addition to all the powers the Nonwizard would normally have.
The following feats would be thinkable. The idea you can SWAP a class power for a cantrip is reasonable. The idea you can get a "demo" cantrip as an Encounter power is reasonable. The idea you can wait until higher levels is reasonable.
Getting all cantrips when taking Wizard as a Paragon Path is reasonable, both because of the high level, and because of the investment in the Wizard class which is an opportunity cost.
Maybe I could live with a Paragon feat that grants one cantrip to those who have the Multiclass feat.
The fact players want cantrip powers is itself proof cantrips are valuable.
Can a feat simply grant the Wizards class feature, a cantrip? No. The feat would only be a demo: once per Encounter.
But maybe at higher levels, a feat that granted one full At-Will cantrip wouldnt be so bad for characters who have already invested in the Wizard multiclass.
That said, I've always argued that one of the ways they could power up paragon path multiclassing was to grant a class feature when you reach level 11 and decide to do so. Being granted cantrips would, in my opinion, be right with the power level of such a transition.
If a Wizard can do it for free, then there is no reason to limit other characters from accessing those abilities.
This is key, I think. This is not a matter of "how powerful" these mechanics are, but a matter of opportunity cost, specifically a feat.
- Currently, you can get two cantrips by wearing a pair of gloves (840 gp).
- A gnoll can acquire a cantrip by virtue of their race, regardless of their build.
Now would a feat (with the Arcane Initiate feat as a prerequisite) that grants four cantrips be broken, considering the investment? I don't think so, but, hey, I'm no game designer.
This is key, I think. This is not a matter of "how powerful" these mechanics are, but a matter of opportunity cost, specifically a feat.
- Currently, you can get two cantrips by wearing a pair of gloves (840 gp).
- A gnoll can acquire a cantrip by virtue of their race, regardless of their build.
Now would a feat (with the Arcane Initiate feat as a prerequisite) that grants four cantrips be broken, considering the investment? I don't think so, but, hey, I'm no game designer.
not sure about broken, but it would be better then equal level feats I think.
I did like the idea of switching a class feature as a benifit of paragon multiclassing though
The class doesnt have anything else except for Ritual Caster which really is a feat, and an implement feature which actually sucks (except for the accidental Orb cheese at Epic levels). Regarding implements a +1 magic wand - which you really can buy at 1st level is much better than the class feature. And you dont even need the feature to use the wand. For example, a Staff Wizard can still use a magic wand. These features arent powerful.
The designers created cantrips to be the Wizards potent class features - and they are!
it would be better then equal level feats I think.
Exactly, cantrips would be way better than any other feat.
Moreover, having these powers permanently would be like the permanent expenditure of a magic-item body slot. So to have BOTH the body slot AND the cantrips is even more valuable.
But is it more valuable than having BOTH the feat slot AND the cantrips? What if you get only a single cantrip per feat?
The fact players want cantrip powers is itself proof cantrips are valuable.
The question is: Valuable for what?
If a player who already was one of the few who had his PC actually carry and using soap in 3.x (I have seen enough who never bought soap) and several noble outfits (instead of magic items like the rest of the PCs, because the description says you don't wear the same noble outfit more than once) just wants the "clean myself" function of prestidigitation, is it really a power advantange? He just wants it because otherwise there's no way his PC would ever enter a stinking sewer or any other gross environment
Mrt: What if you get only a single cantrip per feat?
What if you get any at-will power per feat?
What if you get the Healing Word power per feat?
What if you get a Channel Divinity power which can be cast as a separate power from the other Channel Divinity options - per feat?
What if you get the Fighters Combat Challenge at will per feat?
What if you get the Paladins Divine Challenge at will per feat?
What if you get the Rangers Two-Blade Fighting Style per feat?
What if you get the Rangers Hunters Quarry per feat?
What if you get the Rogues Artful Dodger per feat?
What if you get the Warlocks Eldritch Blast per feat?
Oh wait. You cant.
Oh wait. You cant.
Because all of them are MUCH more powerfull than any cantrip. With all said, I wouldn't be suprised to see exactly such cantrip feats in the upcomming splatbooks.
There were people just as adamantly opposed to the idea of a +3 1d12 fullblade as they claimed it would be too much powercreep and make the defenders step on the toes of the strikers.
WotC not only made a +3 1d12 fullblade, they even added high crit on top of it for free
Cantrips were upgraded since 3e. For example, Mage Hand can now lift MORE THAN the old 5 pounds!
Cantrips are powerful, effective, useful, and COVETED class features!
Cantrips are powerful.
Abd yet they're not as powerfull as ordinary powers
The cantrips ARE the Wizard class features.
The class doesnt have anything else except for Ritual Caster which really is a feat, and an implement feature which actually sucks (except for the accidental Orb cheese at Epic levels). Regarding implements a +1 magic wand - which you really can buy at 1st level is much better than the class feature. And you dont even need the feature to use the wand. For example, a Staff Wizard can still use a magic wand. These features arent powerful.
The designers created cantrips to be the Wizards potent class features - and they are!
It's not the only class feature. The spellbook is my personal favorite class feature of the wizard. That said, cantrips have minor utility ability, most of which could be easily handled by a toolbelt containing flint, steel, some throwing rocks and a hook on a wire. They are damn useful, but not THAT damn useful.
However, I agree that they all shouldn't be granted in a single feat, or even one that has a prerequisite feat.
IMX, cantrips are like the Wish spell. In the hands of an intelligent player, cantrips become extremely game-breakingly powerful.
Cantrips are awesome powerful - and thats why most people want them!
Cantrips are more powerful than other powers, because cantrips work well at Epic levels too.
IMX, cantrips are like the Wish spell. In the hands of an intelligent player, cantrips become extremely game-breakingly powerful.
Cantrips are awesome powerful - and thats why most people want them!
I disagree. Virtually every utility power above level 2 is significantly better than any one cantrip. As I said, most cantrips can be reproduced nonmagically through judicious use of sleight of hand, ventriloquism, flint and steel (with a torch), or a hook on a wire. There's even a level 5 cleric utility that is vastly better than Light is (Holy Lantern).
They are good, but not THAT good.
There are so many powers that suck in comparison to a single cantrip. And a feat isnt even powerful enough to get a crappy power.
The VERSATILITY of what a cantrip can do is part of what makes it so powerful. You can do amazing stuff on the fly - even while naked without gear.
There are so many powers that suck in comparison to a single cantrip. And a feat isnt even powerful enough to get a crappy power.
The question is why you would be naked without gear? If the players were captured or something to that sort? If that were the case, they would likely put a blindfold on the face of whomever they suspect to be a spellcaster anyways (or eladrin), so even cantrips would become completely useless. The chances of being fully naked are slim enough that there is no need to balance the game based on it. It's not like D&D developers playtest "what if everyone is stripped naked of their weapons?" as a scenario, nor would they playtest "would Orcus remain a challenge if he was rendered blind, deaf and hexaplegic?"
Like I said, cantrips are slightly better than level 2 utility powers (largely due to their at-will properties). After that, they quickly lose steam... and while they remain useful throughout your career, so do virtually all utility powers.
What if you get any at-will power per feat?
What if you get the Healing Word power per feat?
What if you get a Channel Divinity power which can be cast as a separate power from the other Channel Divinity options - per feat?
What if you get the Fighters Combat Challenge at will per feat?
What if you get the Paladins Divine Challenge at will per feat?
What if you get the Rangers Two-Blade Fighting Style per feat?
What if you get the Rangers Hunters Quarry per feat?
What if you get the Rogues Artful Dodger per feat?
What if you get the Warlocks Eldritch Blast per feat?
Oh wait. You cant.
All of those features are infinitely more powerful than cantrips. I mean that literally.
The magnitude of damage, healing, penalties or bonuses the cantrips do = absolute zero.
The magnitude of damage, healing, penalties or bonuses the powers or class features do > 0.
The ratio between the two is X/0, which approaches infinity by proxy of limits. Therefore you aren't even close to the outfield with your comparison. Now, what with cantrips having no combat value, and you having given no reason for Wizards being the only ones to be able to cast them, for all intents and purposes I will consider you to have conceded the point.
Cantrips are more powerful than many powers, because cantrips work well at Epic levels too.
No. They have no value at 1st level, and they have no value at 30th level.
IMX, cantrips are like the Wish spell. In the hands of an intelligent player, cantrips become extremely game-breakingly powerful.
No. Even. Close. All of your proposed tricks have either been proven wrong, ineffective or overcomplicated.
Cantrips are awesome powerful - and thats why most people want them!
Nobody in their right mind would multiclass into Wizard and spend a feat just to get a single cantrip. I can only think of one build that would multiclass into Wizard if they got them for free.
The VERSATILITY of what a cantrip can do is part of what makes it so powerful. You can do amazing stuff on the fly - even while naked without gear.
What amazing stuff? Combing your hair? You'd have to be a butt****ing moron to consider that more useful than even a single point of damage.
There are so many powers that suck in comparison to a single cantrip.
Name one.
And a feat isnt even powerful enough to get a crappy power.
It is, actually. It isn't powerful enough to get a respectable power. Luckily, though, cantrips have no value.
Like I said, cantrips are slightly better than level 2 utility powers (largely due to their at-will properties).
Compare to:
Expeditious Retreat (free movement without provoking opportunity attacks)
Feather Fall (situationally life-saving, as opposed to, say, Prestidigitation's situational niftiness)
Jump (free [large] bonus to Athletics checks)
Shield (free bonus to AC and Reflex defenses)
That's just the Wizard powers. Here's Rogue:
Fleeting Ghost (Oh, this is good! It's at will like the cantrips and actually does something useful.)
Great Leap (Even better! Free running start vs. combing my hair without using a comb? Yes please!)
Master of Deceit (free re-roll; none of the cantrips can give you that)
Quick Fingers (Thievery as a minor action; Beats the ever-living **** out of Prestidigitation any day of the week.)
Tumble (not as good as Expeditious Retreat, but shifting is usually more useful to Rogues).
Do you want more? 'Cause the further I go, the deeper your hole gets. The fallacy of "More uses means more power" doesn't need addressing.
All of those features are infinitely more powerful than cantrips. I mean that literally.
No. Even. Close. All of your proposed tricks have either been proven wrong, ineffective or overcomplicated.
.
actually no you in no way proved them wrong, you made statement that you feel prov them wrong.
but almost all of them are you option only, and some like starting fires you were flat out provably wrong about.
actually no you in no way proved them wrong, you made statement that you feel prov them wrong.
No, actually, I did prove them wrong. You say that I didn't, but you haven't even countered my statements (not even with a "YES I CAN"). If I'm so wrong, address what I've written. Otherwise you're being either intellectually dishonest or self-deceptive. In either case I will not be engaging you further if this is so.
but almost all of them are you option only, and some like starting fires you were flat out provably wrong about.
This isn't a matter of opinion. No bonus, no penalty, no damage, no healing => No mechanical relevance. This is fact.
And no, you can't start anything larger than a small campfire. This is also fact, not my "option."
Compare to:
Expeditious Retreat (free movement without provoking opportunity attacks)
Feather Fall (situationally life-saving, as opposed to, say, Prestidigitation's situational niftiness)
Jump (free [large] bonus to Athletics checks)
Shield (free bonus to AC and Reflex defenses)
That's just the Wizard powers. Here's Rogue:
Fleeting Ghost (Oh, this is good! It's at will like the cantrips and actually does something useful.)
Great Leap (Even better! Free running start vs. combing my hair without using a comb? Yes please!)
Master of Deceit (free re-roll; none of the cantrips can give you that)
Quick Fingers (Thievery as a minor action; Beats the ever-living **** out of Prestidigitation any day of the week.)
Tumble (not as good as Expeditious Retreat, but shifting is usually more useful to Rogues).
Do you want more? 'Cause the further I go, the deeper your hole gets. The fallacy of "More uses means more power" doesn't need addressing.
Good job failing to look for abilities which have in- or out-of-combat properties. That said:
- You don't have to make cheap condescending statements about combing hair or whatever crap you were talking about. It's not my argument, and it has nothing to do with why I feel that cantrips are as effective as I feel they are. Even if you have some bizarre allergic reaction to any statements that contradict you which turns you into a *****, the least you can do for all of us is take a breather and wait until you've calmed down before responding.
- Fleeting Ghost and Great Leap are two of the six only existing at-will utility powers in the first release of the game, save for cantrips. Since I did specifically state that the at-will properties of cantrips are their only real advantage over 2nd-level utility powers, can you guess what advantage they have over at-will utility powers?
- Virtually all utility powers are situational, and cantrips as a class-feature-based extension of utility powers is no exception. That said, a free pack of four at-will abilities you could use in a variety of ways far exceeds any single utility power anyday in overall utility. Apparently Wizards agrees, since they saw fit to take only ¼ of the class feature as a race-exclusive feat, instead of the whole thing.
- More uses DOES mean more power. That's how the third at-will ability of humans is able to compare to the encounter racial powers of other races, and how the vast list of feat-granted channel divinity powers stays balanced... more uses means more power, and less uses means less power. I call it "John Thompson's rule of ammunition".
So then, how about a modded Arcane Initiate feat? Let him take the wizards multiclass... but instead of the one level one at will, he can take the cantrips instead? Surely the power of cantrips dont stand up to Scorching Burst?
Shirley?
Wow, i seem to have the dubious talent for asking seemingly innocuous questions that lead to flamewar. Grand.
So then, how about a modded Arcane Initiate feat? Let him take the wizards multiclass... but instead of the one level one at will, he can take the cantrips instead? Surely the power of cantrips dont stand up to Scorching Burst?
Shirley?
I would say one, maybe two of the cantrips, but definitely not all of them. A common pattern amongst multiclass feats is the fact that they only give you a partial class feature.
Good job failing to look for abilities which have in- or out-of-combat properties.
Out-of-combat abilities don't matter. The game is designed and centered around combat. And skill challenges, but cantrips don't help with those either so no matter what anyone says to the contrary, they have no relevance.
- You don't have to make cheap condescending statements about combing hair or whatever crap you were talking about. It's not my argument, and it has nothing to do with why I feel that cantrips are as effective as I feel they are. Even if you have some bizarre allergic reaction to any statements that contradict you which turns you into a *****, the least you can do for all of us is take a breather and wait until you've calmed down before responding.
I am perfectly calm, but I can't help my feelings of contempt towards people pretending like they have something relevant or interesting when they don't. I don't like phonies. I also don't like people who act like they're entitled to being taken seriously.
- Fleeting Ghost and Great Leap are two of the six only existing at-will utility powers in the first release of the game, save for cantrips. Since I did specifically state that the at-will properties of cantrips are their only real advantage over 2nd-level utility powers, can you guess what advantage they have over at-will utility powers?
Again with the "more uses mean more power" crap. Look, no matter how many times you cast Mage Hand, it can lift 20 pounds. That's it. Is a CZ-75 pistol more powerful than a Colt Python because it can hold more bullets? No. The punch lies in the bullets themselves, not the magazine's capacity.
- Virtually all utility powers are situational, and cantrips as a class-feature-based extension of utility powers is no exception. That said, a free pack of four at-will abilities you could use in a variety of ways far exceeds any single utility power anyday in overall utility. Apparently Wizards agrees, since they saw fit to take only ¼ of the class feature as a race-exclusive feat, instead of the whole thing.
If WotC designed a feat that gave you a free +100 bonus on attack rolls, would that be balanced too? No. This isn't a matter of opinion. Cantrips objectively have diminishing relevance and are more situational than any one utility power.
- More uses DOES mean more power. That's how the third at-will ability of humans is able to compare to the encounter racial powers of other races, and how the vast list of feat-granted channel divinity powers stays balanced... more uses means more power, and less uses means less power. I call it "John Thompson's rule of ammunition".
That argument is moronic. No matter how many at will powers you have, you still have to expend actions to use them. If you're expending actions, that means you can't use other at will powers. If there is an increase in damage, it's both minimal and situational. That's also a very big "if," considering that we're discussing at will powers.
You seem to be under the impression that since it's a power, then it must have some relevance. That line of reasoning is insane, considering that cantrips don't do anything (even though some people still falsely claim that you can set stuff on fire and disguise yourself).
How about a feat that grants one cantrip as an encounter power and requires Arcane Initiate feat as a prerequisite? Taking this feat multiple times would allow multiple cantrips. Maybe taking a specific cantrip twice would improve it to at-will. So, to get the full four cantrips at the same strength as a through multiclass, it would cost you seven feats. That's a lot of feats that could be used elsewhere.
I apologize if this has already been suggested.
How about a feat that grants one cantrip as an encounter power and requires Arcane Initiate feat as a prerequisite? Taking this feat multiple times would allow multiple cantrips. Maybe taking a specific cantrip twice would improve it to at-will. So, to get the full four cantrips at the same strength as a through multiclass, it would cost you seven feats. That's a lot of feats that could be used elsewhere.
It really doesn't need to be an encounter power, however. Each cantrip is 1/4 of a class feature, not a full class feature. That is why I suggested two cantrips, at-will. That is half a class feature, with the prereq of a multiclass feat. At the very worst, I would make it one cantrip at-will. Making it an encounter power is just too much. Again, that is one-quarter of a class feature for a feat with a prereq, not a full class feature.
The Gnoll feat adds a cantrip at-will AND gives you a +2 bonus to use it under certain conditions. *shrug* I think it is actually underpowered most of the time, but it also doesn't have a prereq of multiclassing.
I apologize if this has already been suggested.
How about a feat that grants one cantrip as an encounter power and requires Arcane Initiate feat as a prerequisite? Taking this feat multiple times would allow multiple cantrips. Maybe taking a specific cantrip twice would improve it to at-will. So, to get the full four cantrips at the same strength as a through multiclass, it would cost you seven feats. That's a lot of feats that could be used elsewhere.
The answer to your proposal is a question: If you were a player looking to build the most effective character possible, would you even consider acquiring cantrips through that setup?
Out-of-combat abilities don't matter. The game is designed and centered around combat. And skill challenges, but cantrips don't help with those either so no matter what anyone says to the contrary, they have no relevance.
Check the racial power for the Doppelganger race, or any number of utility powers without combat utility (Astral Speech, Foil the Lock, Beguiling Tongue, Ambassador Imp, Disguise Self), or the entire ritual chapter for an entire list of things that prove that the game assumes that noncombat abilities have relevance.
I am perfectly calm, but I can't help my feelings of contempt towards people pretending like they have something relevant or interesting when they don't. I don't like phonies. I also don't like people who act like they're entitled to being taken seriously.
Good statement for some inflection time. If you aren't going to take anyone else in a discussion seriously, it's probably a safe assumption that you yourself have nothing serious to contribute either.
Again with the "more uses mean more power" crap. Look, no matter how many times you cast Mage Hand, it can lift 20 pounds. That's it. Is a CZ-75 pistol more powerful than a Colt Python because it can hold more bullets? No. The punch lies in the bullets themselves, not the magazine's capacity.
So the fact that Fey Step only ever teleports you 5 squares from beginning to end of your career (without the assistance of enhancement) or the fact that Combat Challenge always only marks creatures you target with an attack for your entire career means that they become more valueless over time? 20 pounds makes up a large number of objects in the PHB, and a good number of things overall. I should think that 20-pound objects will remain a commonality throughout your career.
If WotC designed a feat that gave you a free +100 bonus on attack rolls, would that be balanced too? No. This isn't a matter of opinion. Cantrips objectively have diminishing relevance and are more situational than any one utility power.
As do any number of racial powers and most utilities. According to you, anything earned early on that does not have increasing values is worthless by endgame, which is way false. Teleport powers, even if they are earned very early, remain damn useful throughout your career because of what they do, not by how much they do it. The same goes with cantrips.
That argument is moronic. No matter how many at will powers you have, you still have to expend actions to use them. If you're expending actions, that means you can't use other at will powers. If there is an increase in damage, it's both minimal and situational. That's also a very big "if," considering that we're discussing at will powers.
You seem to be under the impression that since it's a power, then it must have some relevance. That line of reasoning is insane, considering that cantrips don't do anything (even though some people still falsely claim that you can set stuff on fire and disguise yourself).
You can set stuff on fire with it. Prestidigitation's ability to light a number of things including a small campfire ensures it's arson potential. The ability to produce a small item or make one invisible can come in very handy during any number of bluff checks (for example: if you know what the symbol or badge of the local judicial authority looks like you can reproduce it and show it off for expanded access to the city). Mage Hand allows you to put away and draw an object simultaneously as a minor action (by far the best property of cantrips overall, and alone almost worth a feat), as well as pick up any object up to 25 feet away and put it into your hand as a minor action (which combined with the previous use is likely fully worthy of a feat, if not too much so). Light can allow you to cause enemies to light up like a road flare for the next 5 minutes (by targeting their armor or weapon), reducing their overall ability to hide from you in an otherwise favorable scenario (he's hidden? then I target the square at the center of the massive circle of light over there...). Ghost Sound allows you to whisper secretly to someone 50 feet away (potentially very handy in combat, considering that yelled commands are heard by the enemy), or imitate another person's voice as a means of causing a distraction (or the delivery of false orders, such as by killing the leader of a group just as you Ghost Sound his voice screaming "retreat!").
Just because you can't find combat utility does not mean there is no combat utility.
wait... did you just speak ill of prestidigitation, mage hand, ghost sound and light?
in my area prestidigitation is often called "wish lite" because it's generally a very versatile cantrip.
groping... er... mage hand is useful when a 10 ft pole just isn't enough... or too obvious.
ghost sound is a great distraction technique.
light is light.
Although light and groping someone don't go hand in hand. Heh, I made a pun...
...
I've become everything I've ever hated. DAMN YOU! DAMN YOU ALL TO... Umm... THE ABYSS!
Check the racial power for the Doppelganger race, or any number of utility powers without combat utility (Astral Speech, Foil the Lock, Beguiling Tongue, Ambassador Imp, Disguise Self), or the entire ritual chapter for an entire list of things that prove that the game assumes that noncombat abilities have relevance.
Did I only say out-of-combat? No, I specifically noted skill challenges. It was in the part of my post that you quoted!
I've already gone through the Rogue's and Wizard's utility power and the ones you cited only strengthen my case that cantrips suck majorly. They all give mechanical benefits, except Ambassador Imp, but that power also sucks. Cantrips give none whatsoever.
Good statement for some inflection time. If you aren't going to take anyone else in a discussion seriously, it's probably a safe assumption that you yourself have nothing serious to contribute either.
No, that's just vindictive and irrational. I look at the content of each post, nothing else. If you choose to ignore me for taking the discussion seriously enough to not validate all the feel-good "we're all winners!" crap that inevitably surfaces on an internet forum, that's your problem. But don't pretend like you're returning the favor.
So the fact that Fey Step only ever teleports you 5 squares from beginning to end of your career (without the assistance of enhancement) or the fact that Combat Challenge always only marks creatures you target with an attack for your entire career means that they become more valueless over time? 20 pounds makes up a large number of objects in the PHB, and a good number of things overall. I should think that 20-pound objects will remain a commonality throughout your career.
Fey Step stays the same. Fights don't take place with a larges space between individuals than they did at lower levels. Combat Challenge remains useful because it's always a flat 10% less chance for the opponent to hit anybody other than you.
Then there's Mage Hand. It could lift a chair at 1st level and it can lift a chair at 30th. This has no relevance to combat or skill challenges.
As do any number of racial powers and most utilities. According to you, anything earned early on that does not have increasing values is worthless by endgame, which is way false. Teleport powers, even if they are earned very early, remain damn useful throughout your career because of what they do, not by how much they do it. The same goes with cantrips.
Okay, no thought or education to be found here either. Penalties, senses and movements remain constant. If they're good at 1st level, they're equally good at 30th because the mechanics they're based on do not scale with levels. Monster stats do scale, and so if attack powers didn't scale, they would give diminishing returns.
You can set stuff on fire with it. Prestidigitation's ability to light a number of things including a small campfire ensures it's arson potential. The ability to produce a small item or make one invisible can come in very handy during any number of bluff checks (for example: if you know what the symbol or badge of the local judicial authority looks like you can reproduce it and show it off for expanded access to the city). Mage Hand allows you to put away and draw an object simultaneously as a minor action (by far the best property of cantrips overall, and alone almost worth a feat), as well as pick up any object up to 25 feet away and put it into your hand as a minor action (which combined with the previous use is likely fully worthy of a feat, if not too much so). Light can allow you to cause enemies to light up like a road flare for the next 5 minutes (by targeting their armor or weapon), reducing their overall ability to hide from you in an otherwise favorable scenario (he's hidden? then I target the square at the center of the massive circle of light over there...). Ghost Sound allows you to whisper secretly to someone 50 feet away (potentially very handy in combat, considering that yelled commands are heard by the enemy), or imitate another person's voice as a means of causing a distraction (or the delivery of false orders, such as by killing the leader of a group just as you Ghost Sound his voice screaming "retreat!").
Name one reason for why only the Wizard should be able to do any of these. In fact, I will not respond to you further until this question is answered with ironclad premises and bulletproof logic. I've waited long enough and you people are really trying my patience.
Just because you can't find combat utility does not mean there is no combat utility.
You've been implying that all these tiny little benefits amount to enough power that makes them more powerful than any of the heroic tier feats and Arcane Initiate. It's slightly more useful than Linguist, which is the very worst feat of all the heroic tier feats.
Did I only say out-of-combat? No, I specifically noted skill challenges. It was in the part of my post that you quoted!
To which, abilities like prestidigitation could be quite useful as well. Showing off a badge created by it could very well be worth a success on its own in a social test involving someone who respects authority. Any number of other tricks could be worth a circumstantial bonus.
I've already gone through the Rogue's and Wizard's utility power and the ones you cited only strengthen my case that cantrips suck majorly. They all give mechanical benefits, except Ambassador Imp, but that power also sucks. Cantrips give none whatsoever.
Minor action, pick object off the ground and hold it in your hand from up to 5 squares away. Minor action, simultaneously put away and draw an object. Minor action, pick up 20-pound object and move it 5 squares per move action in any direction to an absolute distance of whatever you can see without having to move yourself. Minor action, make one object (unattended or otherwise) glow with a bright light that illuminates four squares in all directions for 5 minutes, no chance to miss an attended object.
No mechanical benefits? O RLY?!
No, that's just vindictive and irrational. I look at the content of each post, nothing else. If you choose to ignore me for taking the discussion seriously enough to not validate all the feel-good "we're all winners!" crap that inevitably surfaces on an internet forum, that's your problem. But don't pretend like you're returning the favor.
Whether you care about a feel-good vibe doesn't matter. The fact that you threw some inane comment about combing your hair at me as some argument against my statement proves that apparently at some point you decided to cease reading most arguments and assume everyone was saying the same exact thing. Once you're doing that, you aren't even trying to form a reasonable discussion.
Fey Step stays the same. Fights don't take place with a larges space between individuals than they did at lower levels. Combat Challenge remains useful because it's always a flat 10% less chance for the opponent to hit anybody other than you.
Then there's Mage Hand. It could lift a chair at 1st level and it can lift a chair at 30th. This has no relevance to combat or skill challenges.
Or you can use Mage Hand to loot bodies from a distance as a minor action while still participating in the fight (which potentially allows you to use gain new equipment to use for combat during the fight). Or you can use it to swap weapons as a minor action without wasting a feat on quick draw. Or it can allow an item to traverse a room without putting the party in imminent danger (such as when dealing with puzzle rooms involving traps).
"Awesome_Dude only uses it to lift chairs" is not the same as "it can only lift chairs".
Okay, no thought or education to be found here either. Penalties, senses and movements remain constant. If they're good at 1st level, they're equally good at 30th because the mechanics they're based on do not scale with levels. Monster stats do scale, and so if attack powers didn't scale, they would give diminishing returns.
And the effects that cantrips are based around don't scale either. Do 20-pound objects become heavier as you level up? Does darkness become darker, requiring more light illumination to fill the same size area? Does the ability to create small objects become weaker because small objects scale to be too small object-y for prestidigitation? Does the ability to produce illusory sounds need to scale because illusory sounds should be more illusiony or soundy?
Now you're just *****ing and moaning for the sake of *****ing and moaning.
Name one reason for why only the Wizard should be able to do any of these. In fact, I will not respond to you further until this question is answered with ironclad premises and bulletproof logic. I've waited long enough and you people are really trying my patience.
Name one time I've ever said that the wizard should be the only one to do any of these. I haven't. I think Ghost Sound as a race-exclusive feat is perfectly fine, as are magic items which amplify and grant the powers to whomever wears them while taking up slots that could be better served with far more powerful magic item properties. However, I think that (at least half of the) cantrips are too powerful for basic feats, unless said feats have at least relatively costly requirements
You've been implying that all these tiny little benefits amount to enough power that makes them more powerful than any of the heroic tier feats and Arcane Initiate. It's slightly more useful than Linguist, which is the very worst feat of all the heroic tier feats.
Mage Hand by itself I would argue to be better than Quick Draw in overall utility. Despite the +2 to initiative and the ability to draw without an action at all, the comparative ability to swap with a minor (which is the same as Quick Draw, since it's a minor to put away an item) or the ability to pick useful items (such as loot) off the ground mid-combat from up to 5 squares away and put them in your hand with a minor action is much better. Obviously Wizards feels that Ghost Sound is worthwhile enough to merit a single racial feat to be granted it with a bluff bonus while using it (making it slightly weaker than a standard feat, which I can agree with, since it and Prestidigitation are definitely the weakest two cantrips). Light I would say is almost comparative to a level 2 utility power, especially since the level 6 utility prayer Holy Lantern is a more effective, but comparative power (it grants a +2 bonus to those within and swaps the ability to be casted on an object or space for the ability to free-float and move as a minor, while being bumped up to standard action from minor and granting one space more light in all directions).
There are no verbal nor somatic nor material components. There are situations where these spells can be cast discretely.
There are no verbal, somatic or material components for any power. Also, there is no distinction between how any particular power is supposed to be executed. This means you can cast a spell only as discreetly as you can stab someone in the face.
Mage Hand by itself I would argue to be better than Quick Draw in overall utility. Despite the +2 to initiative and the ability to draw without an action at all, the comparative ability to swap with a minor (which is the same as Quick Draw, since it's a minor to put away an item) or the ability to pick useful items (such as loot) off the ground mid-combat from up to 5 squares away and put them in your hand with a minor action is much better.
Quick Draw: One main usage, the ability to draw one or two weapons and attack as a standard action.
Mage Hand: Two main uses...
#1 - Can put away what is in one hand and put something else in that hand as a minor action.
#2 - As a move action, you can move than hand 5 squares, have it pick something up off the ground as a minor action, then spend another move action to have the hand return to your square, and drop it as a free action.
#3 - Use it to avoid "gotcha" traps, like trapped doors, pressure plates, or other out-of-combat traps.
QD has definite combat potential, while MH...the closest I can come up with is "Mage Hand to sheathe one weapon and pull out a potion as a minor action, drink the potion as a minor action, then draw the weapon back out as a minor action." Of course, one could easily just say "drop one weapon as a free action, pull out the potion as a minor action, drink as a minor action, and pick the weapon back up as a minor action." The sheer number of actions required to TK something would make that usage of MH incredibly limited.
Light I would say is almost comparative to a level 2 utility power, especially since the level 6 utility prayer Holy Lantern is a more effective, but comparative power (it grants a +2 bonus to those within and swaps the ability to be casted on an object or space for the ability to free-float and move as a minor, while being bumped up to standard action from minor and granting one space more light in all directions).
If most parties have a wizard, who will have light up if illumination becomes an issue...is it really that bad to have another character around with a light spell up? Just seems really redundant. And though it could be said that one could supply light if the other is unable to (due ot incapacitation), other PCs could do much the same thing with a torch or sunrod.
There are no verbal, somatic or material components for any power. Also, there is no distinction between how any particular power is supposed to be executed. This means you can cast a spell only as discreetly as you can stab someone in the face.
This.
Because of this, the wizard can only use cantrips to help with trickery from a distance while unseen.
Mage Hand is by far the most useful cantrip, and Decivre has shown this rather solidly. Light is mostly made irrelevant by strapping sunrods to shields, although making NPCs glow so you can find them if they try to hide is nifty. Ghost Sound and Prestidigitation are Appeals to DM Fiat, which makes pretty much any conclusion about their power levels entirely arbitrary and applicable to exactly one game: the game being discussed by the person who's providing the example.
Generally speaking, a balance-minded DM will allow Ghost Sound and Prestidigitation to have precisely the same amount of power that any PC using any old set of tools or ingenuity might have. In other words, cleverness itself is rewarded, not specific use of granted powers.
To which, abilities like prestidigitation could be quite useful as well. Showing off a badge created by it could very well be worth a success on its own in a social test involving someone who respects authority. Any number of other tricks could be worth a circumstantial bonus.
There is no such thing as a circumstantial bonus.
And why the hell are there badges in the first place? D&D politics and geopgraphy are of the Iron Age. If you want to lie, you make a Bluff check.
Minor action, pick object off the ground and hold it in your hand from up to 5 squares away. Minor action, simultaneously put away and draw an object. Minor action, pick up 20-pound object and move it 5 squares per move action in any direction to an absolute distance of whatever you can see without having to move yourself. Minor action, make one object (unattended or otherwise) glow with a bright light that illuminates four squares in all directions for 5 minutes, no chance to miss an attended object.
No mechanical benefits? O RLY?!
Yeah, no mechanical benefits. At all. You just described logistics. Logistics don't matter because all they deal with is getting from point A to point B. Nontactical movement, light sources, warmth, food, etc. The rules don't care about these things.
Whether you care about a feel-good vibe doesn't matter. The fact that you threw some inane comment about combing your hair at me as some argument against my statement proves that apparently at some point you decided to cease reading most arguments and assume everyone was saying the same exact thing. Once you're doing that, you aren't even trying to form a reasonable discussion.
Everything you do with Prestidigitation amounts to the same act as combing your hair. You're getting all these tiny little benefits that give you no plusses in combat and don't help you achieve your goals. They just validate your laziness.
Or you can use Mage Hand to loot bodies from a distance as a minor action while still participating in the fight (which potentially allows you to use gain new equipment to use for combat during the fight).
So. What?
Or you can use it to swap weapons as a minor action without wasting a feat on quick draw.
Powergamers don't tend to waste a feat on Quick Draw anyways. They keep their weapons already drawn to not waste actions. If they want better initiative, they'll take Improved Initiative or Danger Sense.
Or it can allow an item to traverse a room without putting the party in imminent danger (such as when dealing with puzzle rooms involving traps).
Logistics. Not a mechanical or balance issue. It doesn't matter if you throw a rock or move it telekinetically. The end result is a rock stationed further away from you than it originally was.
And the effects that cantrips are based around don't scale either.
You'll start seeing more chairs made of gold as opposed to timber, I'd assume.
Do 20-pound objects become heavier as you level up?
More heavy objects might start popping up.
Does darkness become darker, requiring more light illumination to fill the same size area?
Light is always the same. If you have light, it doesn't mean you're more powerful. It means you're not penalized.
Does the ability to create small objects become weaker because small objects scale to be too small object-y for prestidigitation? Does the ability to produce illusory sounds need to scale because illusory sounds should be more illusiony or soundy?
This point, and most of the previous points you made also support my argument. Is this intentional?
Now you're just *****ing and moaning for the sake of *****ing and moaning.
No, I'm being one of the rational people in this thread.
I think Ghost Sound as a race-exclusive feat is perfectly fine, as are magic items which amplify and grant the powers to whomever wears them while taking up slots that could be better served with far more powerful magic item properties.
And the fact is that Butcher's Lure SUCKS. Don't just take my word for it. Ask anybody the Optimization forum to help you with a Gnoll build and present it with one of its feats as Butcher's Lure.
However, I think that (at least half of the) cantrips are too powerful for basic feats, unless said feats have at least relatively costly requirements
Using strict requirements as an excuse for a powerful feat is one of the worst design notions ever. They result in overpowered characters, whereas the characters who need the feat most to stay competitive can't get them.
Mage Hand by itself I would argue to be better than Quick Draw in overall utility. Despite the +2 to initiative and the ability to draw without an action at all, the comparative ability to swap with a minor (which is the same as Quick Draw, since it's a minor to put away an item) or the ability to pick useful items (such as loot) off the ground mid-combat from up to 5 squares away and put them in your hand with a minor action is much better.
There are loads upon loads of feats that are better than Quick Draw. The fact that they're all in the heroic tier does not imply that they must also be balanced with each other.
Obviously Wizards feels that Ghost Sound is worthwhile enough to merit a single racial feat to be granted it with a bluff bonus while using it (making it slightly weaker than a standard feat, which I can agree with, since it and Prestidigitation are definitely the weakest two cantrips).
Ghost Sound is not worth a racial feat, with bonus or otherwise.
Light I would say is almost comparative to a level 2 utility power, especially since the level 6 utility prayer Holy Lantern is a more effective, but comparative power (it grants a +2 bonus to those within and swaps the ability to be casted on an object or space for the ability to free-float and move as a minor, while being bumped up to standard action from minor and granting one space more light in all directions).
Nobody takes Holy Lantern.
Quick Draw: One main usage, the ability to draw one or two weapons and attack as a standard action.
Mage Hand: Two main uses...
#1 - Can put away what is in one hand and put something else in that hand as a minor action.
#2 - As a move action, you can move than hand 5 squares, have it pick something up off the ground, then spend another move action to have the hand return to your square, and drop it as a free action.
QD has definite combat potential, while MH...the closest I can come up with is "Mage Hand to sheathe one weapon and pull out a potion as a minor action, drink the potion as a minor action, then draw the weapon back out as a minor action." Of course, one could easily just say "drop one weapon as a free action, pull out the potion as a minor action, drink as a minor action, and pick the weapon back up as a minor action." The sheer number of actions required to TK something would make that usage of MH incredibly limited.
As a single minor action, you can spawn a Mage Hand in the square that has the item up to 5 squares away, pick that item up, move it 5 squares in your direction and drop it into your hand. A single move action for all of that. Definitely better than the way you thought it worked.
If most parties have a wizard, who will have light up if illumination becomes an issue...is it really that bad to have another character around with a light spell up? Just seems really redundant. And though it could be said that one could supply light if the other is unable to (due ot incapacitation), other PCs could do much the same thing with a torch or sunrod.
Light has much better uses than simply creating a light source. If you're dealing with a lurker that constantly re-hides, you can cast light on it's armor or weapon, or hit it with an arrow with the light spell cast on it, and track it despite not being able to see it. When you need to target it and need to pick a square, pick the square at the middle of the circle of light. Another of my favorite uses is to use it like a scouting flare... cast it on an arrow and shoot it down a hallway to see what's beyond your torchlight, or Drop a rock with light on it down a pit to see if you can spot the bottom.
stuff
I'm starting to think I don't like the way these powers are worded. Why would anyone sustain a mage hand, or waste actions moving it around when you could just recast it in the target square? Unless the hand can be moved beyond the initial range, which was the reason for my interpretation of light (believing that such spells expire if enough space is placed between you and the effect).
If these effects can indeed leave their initial Range, then I'd be happy with seeing two at-will cantrips as a secondary multiclass feat (since they're a bit better than I had initially thought).
There is no such thing as a circumstantial bonus.
And why the hell are there badges in the first place? D&D politics and geopgraphy are of the Iron Age. If you want to lie, you make a Bluff check.
Right, no such thing as a circumstantial bonuses, treasure parcels, skill challenges... in fact, let's just say the whole DMG does not exist. It apparently doesn't according to you.
The badge thing was a simple example. You seem needlessly tied to semantics solely so you can avoid the actual point of a given statement.
Yeah, no mechanical benefits. At all. You just described logistics. Logistics don't matter because all they deal with is getting from point A to point B. Nontactical movement, light sources, warmth, food, etc. The rules don't care about these things.
Getting from point A to point B is tactical movement, man. And despite what you say, the rules DO care about these things... otherwise every ritual would have the same cost, the same time constraints, and the game would completely eliminate the diplomacy skill altogether.
Everything you do with Prestidigitation amounts to the same act as combing your hair. You're getting all these tiny little benefits that give you no plusses in combat and don't help you achieve your goals. They just validate your laziness.
Yay! More *****ing and moaning combined with more strawmen about combing your hair.
Not every advantage or disadvantage in this game is as simple as a bonus or penalty. Humans only have a single +2 bonus to a single attribute, and according to your logic that makes them the weakest race in the game, damn the fact that they can choose whichever attribute to add it to. Their third at-will according to your logic is inferior to a racial encounter power again proving them the weakest race, damn the fact that it adds a potentially vital boost to the number of options that a human has in any given turn that doesn't go away after one use.
So. What?
Not an actual statement. Moving on.
Powergamers don't tend to waste a feat on Quick Draw anyways. They keep their weapons already drawn to not waste actions. If they want better initiative, they'll take Improved Initiative or Danger Sense.
Who said I give a **** only about powergamers? I care about what affects players in general, whether they powergame or not. That said, even a powergamer would find use of it (or the aforementioned cantrip) if they used multiple weapons/implements. That, or they might go for the +2 initiative bonus (doubtful though, considering there are other feats that grant bigger bonuses).
Logistics. Not a mechanical or balance issue. It doesn't matter if you throw a rock or move it telekinetically. The end result is a rock stationed further away from you than it originally was.
You can't throw a rock as far as you can visibly see, unless you can only visibly see 50 feet away. You can summon a mage hand up to 5 squares away, but move it as far away from you as you so please, carrying whatever you want it to or sending it to retrieve whatever you want it to.
You'll start seeing more chairs made of gold as opposed to timber, I'd assume.
Then it should satisfy your apparent chair and comb fetish to a greater degree.
More heavy objects might start popping up.
Doubtful. Handheld objects are likely to never exceed 20 pounds. Unless you're trying some stupid crap like moving an obelisk, 20 pounds is all you really need to shift around from a distance.
Light is always the same. If you have light, it doesn't mean you're more powerful. It means you're not penalized.
I don't see what the point of that was. If it has a function and it continues to be useful to some degree, it continues to be useful. Light continues to be useful as a means of tagging invisible creatures, testing dungeon hallways, or simply making a cheap illumination. Unless you magically gain darkvision over the course of your 30 levels, light has uses, and makes the overall cantrip feature quite a bargain for the simple utility it serves to provide.
This point, and most of the previous points you made also support my argument. Is this intentional?
No it doesn't, but it somewhat agrees with part of what you previously said. Some abilities need to scale and others do not to continue to be useful. In this we agree... however I feel that cantrips are the sort that don't need to scale.
No, I'm being one of the rational people in this thread.
If by rational you mean "condescending to anyone who doesn't agree with you", then I suppose so.
And the fact is that Butcher's Lure SUCKS. Don't just take my word for it. Ask anybody the Optimization forum to help you with a Gnoll build and present it with one of its feats as Butcher's Lure.
I figured the +2 bonus to bluff would be somewhat enjoyed, but oh well. Once again, I care about things that all players can enjoy, and don't care about the things that only cater to the powergamer crowd.
Using strict requirements as an excuse for a powerful feat is one of the worst design notions ever. They result in overpowered characters, whereas the characters who need the feat most to stay competitive can't get them.
I thought you were of the notion that cantrips aren't powerful anyways?
There are loads upon loads of feats that are better than Quick Draw. The fact that they're all in the heroic tier does not imply that they must also be balanced with each other.
True, but I still feel that cantrips as a basic feat are too much.
Ghost Sound is not worth a racial feat, with bonus or otherwise.
I disagree. That's about as close to a compromise as we can get.
Nobody takes Holy Lantern.
By which you mean you don't take Holy Lantern, or perhaps you and powergamers don't take Holy Lantern.
I'm starting to think I don't like the way these powers are worded. Why would anyone sustain a mage hand, or waste actions moving it around when you could just recast it in the target square? Unless the hand can be moved beyond the initial range, which was the reason for my interpretation of light (believing that such spells expire if enough space is placed between you and the effect).
If these effects can indeed leave their initial Range, then I'd be happy with seeing two at-will cantrips as a secondary multiclass feat (since they're a bit better than I had initially thought).
It can be moved outside it's initial range... initial range is only for the casting, after which it can move an unlimited distance away from you.
Again, I'm saying these powers are not sucky for a reason, not just because they look pretty or something. They have actual uses that, if you think about them just long enough, can be pretty damn handy.
Right, no such thing as a circumstantial bonuses, treasure parcels, skill challenges... in fact, let's just say the whole DMG does not exist. It apparently doesn't according to you.
Correction: Circumstantial bonuses don't exist.
Getting from point A to point B is tactical movement, man. And despite what you say, the rules DO care about these things... otherwise every ritual would have the same cost, the same time constraints, and the game would completely eliminate the diplomacy skill altogether.
Getting from A to B can be meant figuratively, you know. It's an alternate wording for "accomplishing a goal." None of the things cantrips do help accomplish a skill check or attack roll, nor give any sort of bonus or penalty, so no, the game does not care about them. The closest you get is Light, and Light is an equalizer, not a buff.
Not every advantage or disadvantage in this game is as simple as a bonus or penalty.
No, but the things cantrips do don't really amount to an advantage. D&D isn't about going about your daily business in a quick and efficient manner. Efficiency and resource management is saved for encounters.
Humans only have a single +2 bonus to a single attribute, and according to your logic that makes them the weakest race in the game, damn the fact that they can choose whichever attribute to add it to.
You have a very weak sense of how logic works if that's what you think. For one, I've said nothing about ability bonuses, and two, I've said nothing about ignoring everything except ability bonuses when measuring a race's effectiveness. You made that up.
Their third at-will according to your logic is inferior to a racial encounter power again proving them the weakest race, damn the fact that it adds a potentially vital boost to the number of options that a human has in any given turn that doesn't go away after one use.
What vital boost? It's at best a tiny increase in damage and/or a single alternate choice for a secondary effect?
Not an actual statement. Moving on.
Sorry, but no. Answer the question.
Who said I give a **** only about powergamers?
Those are the people whose opinion actually matters. They are the ones concerned with balance above anything else.
I care about what affects players in general, whether they powergame or not.
Look at it this way: A Wizard multiclassing feat that grants all the cantrips cannot be abused. In any way. At all. Ergo it's not overpowered.
You can't throw a rock as far as you can visibly see, unless you can only visibly see 50 feet away. You can summon a mage hand up to 5 squares away, but move it as far away from you as you so please, carrying whatever you want it to or sending it to retrieve whatever you want it to.
So what? The fact is that someone moving a rock with telekinesis as opposed to someone throwing it is not more powerful. All things the same, both are equally likely to die in combat and fail a skill challenge.
So again, explain to me how this makes an all-cantrips-granted feat overpowered or concede.
I don't see what the point of that was. If it has a function and it continues to be useful to some degree, it continues to be useful. Light continues to be useful as a means of tagging invisible creatures, testing dungeon hallways, or simply making a cheap illumination. Unless you magically gain darkvision over the course of your 30 levels, light has uses, and makes the overall cantrip feature quite a bargain for the simple utility it serves to provide.
It's not a bargain. Not being underpowered or at a disadvantage is not an advantage.
If by rational you mean "condescending to anyone who doesn't agree with you", then I suppose so.
By rational, I mean staying within the parameters of reason. I don't draw false conclusions at the drop of a hat or misunderstand half the things my opposition says.
By the way, you misapplied the term "straw man." The comb thing was a mockery of my opposition's argument. If it were a straw man on my part, then that would mean you had deniability. But you can comb your hair using Prestidigitation, so what I said holds true.
I figured the +2 bonus to bluff would be somewhat enjoyed, but oh well. Once again, I care about things that all players can enjoy, and don't care about the things that only cater to the powergamer crowd.
You don't know anything about powergamers, do you? They're the yardstick for balance. Present them with a mechanical construct and see if they can abuse it. If they can't, then that means it's not overpowered.
As a powergamer myself, I can tell from what the cantrips do that they don't do anything you can't accomplish with cheap items or a little extra time.
I thought you were of the notion that cantrips aren't powerful anyways?
Which is why I'm confident that the feat wouldn't be overpowered.
True, but I still feel that cantrips as a basic feat are too much.
I've been arguing for them being a part of a multiclassing feat.
By which you mean you don't take Holy Lantern, or perhaps you and powergamers don't take Holy Lantern.
Yes, the unholy, pro-**** legion of powergaming does not consider Holy Lantern powerful enough for serious consideration.
Right, no such thing as a circumstantial bonuses, treasure parcels, skill challenges... in fact, let's just say the whole DMG does not exist. It apparently doesn't according to you.
The badge thing was a simple example. You seem needlessly tied to semantics solely so you can avoid the actual point of a given statement.
Getting from point A to point B is tactical movement, man. And despite what you say, the rules DO care about these things... otherwise every ritual would have the same cost, the same time constraints, and the game would completely eliminate the diplomacy skill altogether.
Yay! More *****ing and moaning combined with more strawmen about combing your hair.
Not every advantage or disadvantage in this game is as simple as a bonus or penalty. Humans only have a single +2 bonus to a single attribute, and according to your logic that makes them the weakest race in the game, damn the fact that they can choose whichever attribute to add it to. Their third at-will according to your logic is inferior to a racial encounter power again proving them the weakest race, damn the fact that it adds a potentially vital boost to the number of options that a human has in any given turn that doesn't go away after one use.
Not an actual statement. Moving on.
Who said I give a **** only about powergamers? I care about what affects players in general, whether they powergame or not. That said, even a powergamer would find use of it (or the aforementioned cantrip) if they used multiple weapons/implements. That, or they might go for the +2 initiative bonus (doubtful though, considering there are other feats that grant bigger bonuses).
You can't throw a rock as far as you can visibly see, unless you can only visibly see 50 feet away. You can summon a mage hand up to 5 squares away, but move it as far away from you as you so please, carrying whatever you want it to or sending it to retrieve whatever you want it to.
Then it should satisfy your apparent chair and comb fetish to a greater degree.
Doubtful. Handheld objects are likely to never exceed 20 pounds. Unless you're trying some stupid crap like moving an obelisk, 20 pounds is all you really need to shift around from a distance.
I don't see what the point of that was. If it has a function and it continues to be useful to some degree, it continues to be useful. Light continues to be useful as a means of tagging invisible creatures, testing dungeon hallways, or simply making a cheap illumination. Unless you magically gain darkvision over the course of your 30 levels, light has uses, and makes the overall cantrip feature quite a bargain for the simple utility it serves to provide.
No it doesn't, but it somewhat agrees with part of what you previously said. Some abilities need to scale and others do not to continue to be useful. In this we agree... however I feel that cantrips are the sort that don't need to scale.
If by rational you mean "condescending to anyone who doesn't agree with you", then I suppose so.
I figured the +2 bonus to bluff would be somewhat enjoyed, but oh well. Once again, I care about things that all players can enjoy, and don't care about the things that only cater to the powergamer crowd.
I thought you were of the notion that cantrips aren't powerful anyways?
True, but I still feel that cantrips as a basic feat are too much.
I disagree. That's about as close to a compromise as we can get.
By which you mean you don't take Holy Lantern, or perhaps you and powergamers don't take Holy Lantern.
He seems to be more an optimizer then a gamer.
but hey to each there own, one day he may realise that there is more to gaming then having the highest possable #'s
He seems to be more an optimizer then a gamer.
but hey to each there own, one day he may realise that there is more to gaming then having the highest possable #'s
Another person who fails to see the point and utility in optimization and powergaming, and resorts to flat out insults (inaccurate insults, no less) instead of engaging in a debate.
And commits the Stormwind Fallacy.
Another person who fails to see the point and utility in optimization and powergaming, and resorts to flat out insults (inaccurate insults, no less) instead of engaging in a debate.
And commits the Stormwind Fallacy.
no my statements are accurate youare basing things from a powergamer /optimizer point of view,
you are concerned about the numbers only, there is more to gaming then the numbers.
going just by the numbers would get you killed in my games.
many of the challanges in them have to be out thought not out fought.
cantrips offer useful ways to circumvent dangers & challenges.
mage hand to safely pull a lever or lift an item from a dangerious location.
ghost sound to distract gaurds or safely communicate across a distance.
they are very useful, that you do not see the uses is an issue with you not the cantrips.
Correction: Circumstantial bonuses don't exist.
Page 42, 3rd paragraph, under the heading "Use the DM's Best Friend". If you do enough to give your DM reason to believe you are under an especially favorable circumstance, it is recommended as something to grant. They don't necessarily have to, but it's an option.
Getting from A to B can be meant figuratively, you know. It's an alternate wording for "accomplishing a goal." None of the things cantrips do help accomplish a skill check or attack roll, nor give any sort of bonus or penalty, so no, the game does not care about them. The closest you get is Light, and Light is an equalizer, not a buff.
It's not just a buff, it can be used as a penalizer. As I said, you can cast it on any object, attended or otherwise, without the need of an attack roll so long as that object is targetable by you. If you hit an object held by something that is constantly hidden or invisible in the one chance that you get to do so, you can track them anywhere they go by a bizarre light coming from nowhere.
No, but the things cantrips do don't really amount to an advantage. D&D isn't about going about your daily business in a quick and efficient manner. Efficiency and resource management is saved for encounters.
Neither do a lot of things. Rituals are built upon the concept of not amounting to any real advantage. In fact, that's where a selection of utility spells and all cantrips fall... minor effects which serve more of a utility that doesn't necessarily delve into combat purpose. That doesn't mean they are valueless.
You have a very weak sense of how logic works if that's what you think. For one, I've said nothing about ability bonuses, and two, I've said nothing about ignoring everything except ability bonuses when measuring a race's effectiveness. You made that up.
No, but you have claimed that the only thing that matters is whatever causes bonuses or contains direct combat effectiveness. One racial attribute bonus is less than two, and since you only seem to care about raw values (the comparatively low +2 bonus seems to be the reason you think Quick Draw and Butcher's Lure are valueless, despite their other properties), it's simple to associate that to the idea that anything with an objectively lower value (or number of values) is, according to you, objectively inferior.
What vital boost? It's at best a tiny increase in damage and/or a single alternate choice for a secondary effect?
The most obvious advantage is the fact that it gives you more options during every turn of an encounter, on the raw end of the spectrum (even burning through all of your encounter and daily abilities, you still have three options available to you guaranteeingly). Moreover, it can add a tactical advantage in many scenarios. Through the ability to have three at-wills, the wizard can target all three defenses with an at-will ability (ensuring they are capable of targeting the weakest in virtually every scenario).
There are advantages that go beyond raw numbers.
Sorry, but no. Answer the question.
What question? You used two single-word sentences, one of which was "what?". Either you didn't understand what I said (doubtful), you're simply expressing apathy, which still does not form an actual query so much as a sardonic one. "So what?" was answered before it was asked.
Those are the people whose opinion actually matters. They are the ones concerned with balance above anything else.
Balance isn't only a factor of what has the most pluses. The absolute optimized design of any character only defines the high end of the spectrum, and not the baseline by which the majority of characters will be cast. Elitism doesn't make you more important.
Look at it this way: A Wizard multiclassing feat that grants all the cantrips cannot be abused. In any way. At all. Ergo it's not overpowered.
That's still questionable. I haven't seen any multiclass feats that grant entire class features.
So what? The fact is that someone moving a rock with telekinesis as opposed to someone throwing it is not more powerful. All things the same, both are equally likely to die in combat and fail a skill challenge.
So again, explain to me how this makes an all-cantrips-granted feat overpowered or concede.
I never said anything about power. Again, this is not all about power. Not everything in D&D causes damage, or induces an attack roll.
I don't know what's worse, the people who think that there isn't enough noncombat material in D&D anymore, or thse who seem to desire removing the noncombat material that does exist out of what seems to be spite.
That said, I already have told you how they are overall too powerful for a single feat. Two of the cantrips are worthy of being feats on their own (Light and Mage Hand). Even considering the possibility that the other two could be one feat, there's still the fact that the class feature as a whole is not weak enough to be a single feat.
It's not a bargain. Not being underpowered or at a disadvantage is not an advantage.
Two of the cantrips are effective enough to be low-level utility powers. The fact that you get them and two more is a pretty sweet deal. You may not think so, that's fine, but there's no objective way to define who between us is right.
By rational, I mean staying within the parameters of reason. I don't draw false conclusions at the drop of a hat or misunderstand half the things my opposition says.
By the way, you misapplied the term "straw man." The comb thing was a mockery of my opposition's argument. If it were a straw man on my part, then that would mean you had deniability. But you can comb your hair using Prestidigitation, so what I said holds true.
You could have fooled me about misunderstanding half the things your opposition says, considering that you've brought up chairs and combs repetitively to no actual purpose.
As for the strawman, show me where it says you can comb your hair with prestidigitation in the PHB. You can clean it, you can color it, but it says nothing of combing it (unless you consider "move up to 1 pound of material" as a means to comb something). It seems you've become so blind with your own fanatical ideas about how the game stands, that you have decided to disprove people with something that doesn't even exist. Whether or not somebody else arguing a similar stance brought it up doesn't matter. He isn't me, and therefore you have simply been rewording my statement in your own way solely for the purpose of making it easier for you to shoot down.
What do they call that?
You don't know anything about powergamers, do you? They're the yardstick for balance. Present them with a mechanical construct and see if they can abuse it. If they can't, then that means it's not overpowered.
Wrong. Powergamers help define the higher end of the balance scale, not the baseline. The game has to be balanced in such a manner to support all players, whether powergamers or not. You aren't the only players that matter, so take the elitism elsewhere.
As a powergamer myself, I can tell from what the cantrips do that they don't do anything you can't accomplish with cheap items or a little extra time.
You're right, the majority of the uses of cantrips are minor tricks that you could reproduce easily (I said that in my very first post in this thread). But that doesn't magically snuff out the few impressive properties they do have. Just because you can use Beguiling Tongue to seduce women doesn't negate the uses that a bluff bonus can have in combat or skill challenges. The utility effects of Light and Mage Hand are enough to not be simply overlooked as simple parlor tricks.
Which is why I'm confident that the feat wouldn't be overpowered.
I have my doubts... not necessarily with Ghost Sound and Prestidigitation (which I do feel are inferior enough to be in one feat combined, perhaps), but the other powers definitely have more utility than the
I've been arguing for them being a part of a multiclassing feat.
That I might see. I don't know how they plan to expand multiclassing feats, or if they plan to make it a possibility to get class features as components of them, though. It's a hard call whether it would really be all that balanced to grant full class features through feats.
Yes, the unholy, pro-**** legion of powergaming does not consider Holy Lantern powerful enough for serious consideration.
And again, the real question is what everyone that isn't a powergamer thinks. Do you know, or have you personally decided that they do not matter?
Decivre: I have my doubts... not necessarily with Ghost Sound and Prestidigitation (which I do feel are inferior enough to be in one feat combined, perhaps), but the other powers definitely have more utility than them.
Decivre, your explanations of the combat utility of Mage Hand and Light are spot on.
But I feel you underestimate the power of Prestidigitation and Ghost Sound. While these two cantrips explicitly cant modify combat statistics, they can effectively cause or prevent combat, in the first place.
Prestidigitation and Ghost Sound help control the narrative of the adventure. While this relies on the DMs response, and varies from campaign to campaign, the cantrips are effective nonetheless.
That said, given the nature of Prestidigitation - and the fact it can already produce ambient music, etc. - you could probably combine Ghost Sound with it, and simply add it to the list of what Prestidigitation can do. It would mean reducing Ghost Sound from a Standard Action to a Minor Action, but thats probably acceptable. Then the Wizards class features would be Mage Hand, Light, and Prestidigitation, which is fine by me.
Players who want their character to have something like cantrips, for flavor reasons, can take the Ritual Caster feat.
no my statements are accurate youare basing things from a powergamer /optimizer point of view,
Because I'm talking mechanics. Saying "well, a real roleplayer wouldn't abuse this so it's okay!" is stupid (actually, it goes way beyond stupid; pronouncing the word for it would result in deafness and insanity for those who hear it).
you are concerned about the numbers only, there is more to gaming then the numbers.
You mean DM fiat? The only thing you absolutely cannot account for when designing new rules?
cantrips offer useful ways to circumvent dangers & challenges.
By the rules, they do not provide anything that you can't accomplish with equipment. So if you do allow them to actually circumvent dangers, then you are houseruling. Which means I don't, and should not, care about your viewpoint.
mage hand to safely pull a lever or lift an item from a dangerious location.
ghost sound to distract gaurds or safely communicate across a distance.
they are very useful, that you do not see the uses is an issue with you not the cantrips.
And none of this has anything to do with why only a Wizard should have access to them, or why a feat shouldn't be able to grant them all. You are heinously overestimating the value of logistics.
Page 42, 3rd paragraph, under the heading "Use the DM's Best Friend". If you do enough to give your DM reason to believe you are under an especially favorable circumstance, it is recommended as something to grant. They don't necessarily have to, but it's an option.
Appeal to probability. Invalid argument.
It's not just a buff, it can be used as a penalizer. As I said, you can cast it on any object, attended or otherwise, without the need of an attack roll so long as that object is targetable by you. If you hit an object held by something that is constantly hidden or invisible in the one chance that you get to do so, you can track them anywhere they go by a bizarre light coming from nowhere.
The only thing it does is help you guess the right square to attack. That means it's still an equalizer.
That doesn't mean they are valueless.
No, but they are anyways.
No, but you have claimed that the only thing that matters is whatever causes bonuses or contains direct combat effectiveness. One racial attribute bonus is less than two, and since you only seem to care about raw values (the comparatively low +2 bonus seems to be the reason you think Quick Draw and Butcher's Lure are valueless, despite their other properties), it's simple to associate that to the idea that anything with an objectively lower value (or number of values) is, according to you, objectively inferior.
So what exactly is your argument? Humans are sort of cool and therefore they are balanced? Humans are ambitious and that makes up for their lack of stats? Explain to me, if so, how such an argument possibly makes sense, given that I can roleplay, say, a Bugbear Rogue as sort of cool and ambitious, which by said (not necessarily "your") reasoning would make it overpowered. Humans are okay, but I would generally not consider them a first choice (I'm a DM, not a player),
The most obvious advantage is the fact that it gives you more options during every turn of an encounter, on the raw end of the spectrum (even burning through all of your encounter and daily abilities, you still have three options available to you guaranteeingly).
Correction: Three options of similar power.
Moreover, it can add a tactical advantage in many scenarios. Through the ability to have three at-wills, the wizard can target all three defenses with an at-will ability (ensuring they are capable of targeting the weakest in virtually every scenario).
That's your best argument, and it's still not incredibly convincing.
There are advantages that go beyond raw numbers.
Actually, no. All benefits can be broken down into magnitudes. Darkvision? Increases your range of vision in darkness by a number of feet beyond normal vision.
Breaking cantrips down in such a way reveals their utility. They don't have a lot going for them that doesn't rely on the DM allowing it to happen.
What question? You used two single-word sentences, one of which was "what?". Either you didn't understand what I said (doubtful), you're simply expressing apathy, which still does not form an actual query so much as a sardonic one. "So what?" was answered before it was asked.
The question is "so what?" So what if you can? The Wizard can do it for free, so why can't the Rogue? Or the Fighter? This is the question to which I've demanded an answer basically form the beginning. And I've gotten no satisfying answer. The only thing provided was more explanations of what can be done with them.
Balance isn't only a factor of what has the most pluses. The absolute optimized design of any character only defines the high end of the spectrum, and not the baseline by which the majority of characters will be cast. Elitism doesn't make you more important.
My point went flying over your head. Look, if a skilled powergamer can't abuse a feat that grants all the cantrips, what chance is there of some average Joe managing to do so?
I never said anything about power. Again, this is not all about power. Not everything in D&D causes damage, or induces an attack roll.
Everything in D&D is about power. The combat mechanics are the single largest part of the rules, followed by skill challenges. There aren't rules for anything else. I have trouble imagining the insanity it takes to believe that a character is overpowered because he can perform minor magic tricks to help him go about his daily business.
That said, I already have told you how they are overall too powerful for a single feat.
You keep telling me, but you have nothing to back it up. In fact, the numbers are against you, and you know what that means (Hint: It means that logically speaking, you are wrong).
You could have fooled me about misunderstanding half the things your opposition says, considering that you've brought up chairs and combs repetitively to no actual purpose.
I'm not misunderstanding a thing. I'm mocking you because you're arguing that those acts, among many others (some slightly more impressive, but still not great), are too overpowered to be granted by a single feat when you can perform most of them by simply moving your extremities.
As for the strawman, show me where it says you can comb your hair with prestidigitation in the PHB. You can clean it, you can color it, but it says nothing of combing it (unless you consider "move up to 1 pound of material" as a means to comb something). It seems you've become so blind with your own fanatical ideas about how the game stands, that you have decided to disprove people with something that doesn't even exist. Whether or not somebody else arguing a similar stance brought it up doesn't matter. He isn't me, and therefore you have simply been rewording my statement in your own way solely for the purpose of making it easier for you to shoot down.
Backpedaling and petty insults. Sums up your side nicely.
Now stop discussing me.
What do they call that?
Awesomeness.
Wrong. Powergamers help define the higher end of the balance scale, not the baseline. The game has to be balanced in such a manner to support all players, whether powergamers or not. You aren't the only players that matter, so take the elitism elsewhere.
Ad. Hominem. You're implying that powergamer's opinions on balance don't matter when they are the closest you get to experts on the issue of game balance, and you do so based on some imagined elitist attitude that apprently offends you. ****ing invalid, brosef. You are absolutely wrong on what powergamers do and what utility they have. It's a fact that powergamers define the entire spectrum of what is balanced. They work with the rules and the numbers and thus define every aspect of balance. They find the lower end and the upper end by applying mathematical skills.
Just because you can use Beguiling Tongue to seduce women doesn't negate the uses that a bluff bonus can have in combat or skill challenges.
Except that cantrips don't give you any such bonuses.
The utility effects of Light and Mage Hand are enough to not be simply overlooked as simple parlor tricks.
Your proposed Mage Hand trick is convoluted and the Light "trick" is not only unimpressive, it cant make you overpowered. It makes you "not underpowered." Already explained, and I will not respond to further claims of these tricks' utility in an attempt to cull the intellectual dishonesty.
That I might see. I don't know how they plan to expand multiclassing feats, or if they plan to make it a possibility to get class features as components of them, though. It's a hard call whether it would really be all that balanced to grant full class features through feats.
Healing Word once per day goes way beyond anything cantrips provide over the course of a single day.
And again, the real question is what everyone that isn't a powergamer thinks. Do you know, or have you personally decided that they do not matter?
They don't matter. The powergamers are the people you worry about when designing stuff. Period.
I'm going to go ahead and cull the useless crap from this argument.
Irony at it's finest. I knew you had a sense of humor.
Appeal to probability. Invalid argument.
There is a 100% probability that circumstance bonuses themselves exist, not that they will crop up. Just because a DM doesn't use undead monsters doesn't mean they cease to exist in D&D. Nice try.
The only thing it does is help you guess the right square to attack. That means it's still an equalizer.
That's significantly more than a simple equalizer. It reduces the chance to miss the actual square to 0 (so long as you are always able to see the circle of light). That reduces the overall effectiveness of a stealth monster's actual ability to avoid your attacks to only the -5 attack penalty for total concealment (which doesn't affect area powers).
No, but they are anyways.
Wrong
So what exactly is your argument? Humans are sort of cool and therefore they are balanced? Humans are ambitious and that makes up for their lack of stats? Explain to me, if so, how such an argument possibly makes sense, given that I can roleplay, say, a Bugbear Rogue as sort of cool and ambitious, which by said (not necessarily "your") reasoning would make it overpowered. Humans are okay, but I would generally not consider them a first choice (I'm a DM, not a player),
No, my point is that the advantage of versatility is not something always easily quantifiable in specific numbers. The standard character array is 16, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10 and is considered by many to be one of the best arrays despite the fact that the array 16, 14, 12, 12, 12, 10 offers +1 more overall attribute bonuses, or the array 14, 14, 13, 13, 12, 12 has a larger number of attributes over the base standard attribute requirement value of 13 along with +1 more overall attribute bonuses than the standard array.
The pluses aren't everything... sometimes the function is more important.
Correction: Three options of similar power.
Still better than two options of similar power.
That's your best argument, and it's still not incredibly convincing.
And somehow "I'm an optimizer, so I'm right" is?
Actually, no. All benefits can be broken down into magnitudes. Darkvision? Increases your range of vision in darkness by a number of feet beyond normal vision.
No it doesn't. Darkvision allows you normal vision in absolute darkness. There is no distance value for it... short of obstacles in your view, you can see any distance in the dark with darkvision.
Breaking cantrips down in such a way reveals their utility. They don't have a lot going for them that doesn't rely on the DM allowing it to happen.
Mage Hand and Light, in all uses, are fully within their functional properties. The only possible DM adjudication necessary is whether or not invisible light sources produce light (which would reduce Light's advantage to merely preventing NPCs from using stealth, rather than all techniques which obscure your ability to see a target short of a big wall).
The question is "so what?" So what if you can? The Wizard can do it for free, so why can't the Rogue? Or the Fighter? This is the question to which I've demanded an answer basically form the beginning. And I've gotten no satisfying answer. The only thing provided was more explanations of what can be done with them.
For the same reason that rogues can't get Channel Divinity, Fighter Weapon Talent or Two-Blade Fighting Style. Unless you're arguing that any class feature that does not explicitly define a class should be accessible by all, Cantrips should not necessarily be accessible by all either.
My point went flying over your head. Look, if a skilled powergamer can't abuse a feat that grants all the cantrips, what chance is there of some average Joe managing to do so?
True, but there's still the question of whether a skilled powergamer can or can't abuse it. You saying that they won't doesn't actually prove anything.
Everything in D&D is about power. The combat mechanics are the single largest part of the rules, followed by skill challenges. There aren't rules for anything else. I have trouble imagining the insanity it takes to believe that a character is overpowered because he can perform minor magic tricks to help him go about his daily business.
Skill Challenges are in the DMG along with circumstantial bonuses. According to similar conditions, they also do not exist, unless you are appealing to the probability that a DM will use them.
That said, there are other rules, making your entire statement a blatant lie. The entire ritual chapter has nothing to do with combat, nor does it have to do with skill challenges. Nice try, but no cigar.
You keep telling me, but you have nothing to back it up. In fact, the numbers are against you, and you know what that means (Hint: It means that logically speaking, you are wrong).
You have nothing to back up the idea that they aren't outside of "I think they suck". Other than your personal preference, what do you have that could possibly define your declaration as any more valid? The numbers aren't against me... Light and Mage Hand both provide definitively measurable combat utility at the cost of a minor action from 1st to 30th level, which does not diminish in effectiveness at all for every level. The utility of the remaining two cantrips is definitely questionable (and primarily for roleplaying purposes), but some =/= all.
I'm not misunderstanding a thing. I'm mocking you because you're arguing that those acts, among many others (some slightly more impressive, but still not great), are too overpowered to be granted by a single feat when you can perform most of them by simply moving your extremities.
Again, I've not once said that the power to move chairs and comb your hair is worth more than a feat. Constantly typing it doesn't make it anymore true than the largest majority of the rest of the falsehoods you have stated so far.
Backpedaling and petty insults. Sums up your side nicely.
Now stop discussing me.
I thought you weren't on my side?
Stop making strawman statements and I'll stop discussing you.
Awesomeness.
This statement explains so much about your argument....
Ad. Hominem. You're implying that powergamer's opinions on balance don't matter when they are the closest you get to experts on the issue of game balance, and you do so based on some imagined elitist attitude that apprently offends you. ****ing invalid, brosef. You are absolutely wrong on what powergamers do and what utility they have. It's a fact that powergamers define the entire spectrum of what is balanced. They work with the rules and the numbers and thus define every aspect of balance. They find the lower end and the upper end by applying mathematical skills.
Wrong. I implied that powergamer's opinions don't matter more than any other player's opinion on the issue of baseline game balance. The powergamer's biggest function for the game is defining the high end of the scale, and gauging those components which exceed the high end. Their opinions on everything else are not nearly as special.
Except that cantrips don't give you any such bonuses.
Just from turning to a random page, I found two other abilities that don't grant such bonuses, Knight's Move and Impossible to Catch. Both abilities which grant a utility effect, neither of which grant a skill bonus. Doubtful that you're claiming they are worthless.
Your proposed Mage Hand trick is convoluted and the Light "trick" is not only unimpressive, it cant make you overpowered. It makes you "not underpowered." Already explained, and I will not respond to further claims of these tricks' utility in an attempt to cull the intellectual dishonesty.
The Mage Hand "trick" is the standard function for the cantrip, not something I came up with on the fly. That said, until you can give me a specific reason why completely countering stealth tactics or grabbing encounter treasure such as magic items under 20 pounds within 5 squares as a minor action are so valueless as to be not worth anything but a feat, this conversation is largely going nowhere solely because you aren't fond of a power rather than any objective reason.
Healing Word once per day goes way beyond anything cantrips provide over the course of a single day.
Arguable, since it amounts to 1d6 hit points and an extra second wind as a minor action for anyone in range once a day. It's slightly more useful than a single potion, if only for the fact that it refreshes everyday.
They don't matter. The powergamers are the people you worry about when designing stuff. Period.
Cover up, your elitism is showing.
Powergamers are the key to defining the high end of the spectrum, and ensure that nothing exceeds it. They speak little to nothing for utility, and are largely valueless for various game purposes, such as defining rituals. While a very important part of the game community, they are no more or less valuable than any other player for overall feedback.
That's significantly more than a simple equalizer.
No, that makes it exactly what an equalizer is. It can at best bring a negative up to zero, no further.
No, my point is that the advantage of versatility is not something always easily quantifiable in specific numbers.
Versatility at the expense of power translates roughly to second-rate at everything.
Still better than two options of similar power.
By a small margin.
And somehow "I'm an optimizer, so I'm right" is?
No, my argument is. I don't use my credentials to win arguments (note how I directed you to the CO board for a full demonstration of the value of cantrips instead of saying "I say so, so nyeh!").
No it doesn't. Darkvision allows you normal vision in absolute darkness. There is no distance value for it... short of obstacles in your view, you can see any distance in the dark with darkvision.
Actually, what you said is the distance value. In total darkness your sight range is 0. With darkvision, it increases. That's a numeric value, expressed in squares. Q.e.d.
The only possible DM adjudication necessary is whether or not invisible light sources produce light (which would reduce Light's advantage to merely preventing NPCs from using stealth, rather than all techniques which obscure your ability to see a target short of a big wall).
Wait a minute. Light only targets objects (and squares, which will do nothing). Your stealth disruptor just failed.
For the same reason that rogues can't get Channel Divinity, Fighter Weapon Talent or Two-Blade Fighting Style. Unless you're arguing that any class feature that does not explicitly define a class should be accessible by all, Cantrips should not necessarily be accessible by all either.
Except those are all actual combat bonuses that don't require your DM to allow them to happen.
True, but there's still the question of whether a skilled powergamer can or can't abuse it. You saying that they won't doesn't actually prove anything.
It's pretty damn clear that they can't be abused. Your Light trick just failed, and the Mage Hand trick is less than impressive thus far.
Also, I'm saying they can't, not that they won't. Even if they wanted to, they couldn't.
You have nothing to back up the idea that they aren't outside of "I think they suck".
No, the only thing I have is "They do suck." Which they do.
Again, I've not once said that the power to move chairs and comb your hair is worth more than a feat. Constantly typing it doesn't make it anymore true than the largest majority of the rest of the falsehoods you have stated so far.
I'm using "comb your hair and move a chair" as a synecdoche. Technically, you may not be able to comb your hair, but that really only serves to make it an exaggeration as well.
I thought you weren't on my side?
RARARARARARA
You backpedaled and insulted me. The worst I've done is **** on your argument. You insulted me in turn. At least I stick to the point (and the CoC).
Wrong. I implied that powergamer's opinions don't matter more than any other player's opinion on the issue of baseline game balance.
And I implied that they do. What with their constant mathematical exercises and strict adherence to the rules.
The powergamer's biggest function for the game is defining the high end of the scale, and gauging those components which exceed the high end. Their opinions on everything else are not nearly as special.
So I take it that it wasn't powergamers who managed to turn a character into a loaf of bread?
Just from turning to a random page, I found two other abilities that don't grant such bonuses, Knight's Move and Impossible to Catch. Both abilities which grant a utility effect, neither of which grant a skill bonus. Doubtful that you're claiming they are worthless.
Except Knight's Move grants a free move action. Do you know what you can do with a free move action?
Impossible to Catch makes you invisible with all the bonuses that come with it.
Cover up, your elitism is showing.
I'm done with you. Have the last word if you want. Declare victory. I don't care.
I'd be more enclined towards the former: If you've got multiclass wizard you're already standing on the toes of the groups wizard of your own accord, so a few highly priced cantrips shouldn't make much of a difference.
Ghost hand, certainly, would be a good investment.
Read the very last point first so you don't accidentally waste your time.
Just because you plan to dump the conversation doesn't give you a pass to say whatever you want without being called on it.
No, that makes it exactly what an equalizer is. It can at best bring a negative up to zero, no further.
Nullfiying the ability of a creature is not an equalizer. It makes them weaker than they were before. It doesn't equalize, but rather puts the playing field in your favor.
Versatility at the expense of power translates roughly to second-rate at everything.
"Jack of all trades, master of none, though oft better than master of one." Being excellent at one thing isn't always better than being good at many things.
By a small margin.
Depends on the scenario. While you may almost always only need one specific power for the job, having access to more options ensures that you are more likely to have the one for the job. While more encounter powers are great, more at-will abilities ensures a better likelihood that a character has a reliable multi-use attack for the job.
No, my argument is. I don't use my credentials to win arguments (note how I directed you to the CO board for a full demonstration of the value of cantrips instead of saying "I say so, so nyeh!").
Which is just as valid a statement as anytime someone who hates 4E talks about his buddies at the FLGS and how they are proof the game is failing. While some of the things I do agree with (I've agreed since the very beginning that Prestidigitation and Ghost Sound are minutia in game terms), a large portion of the remainder seems to be a catchall declarative that since part is useless, all are useless.
Actually, what you said is the distance value. In total darkness your sight range is 0. With darkvision, it increases. That's a numeric value, expressed in squares. Q.e.d.
No, it's not. It's advantage is best expressed in a binary declaration. Either a character can see in total darkness, or it can't. The difference between darkvision and other vision types in total darkness is the same as the difference between having any form of vision in any outdoor environment during the day or being blind. One can see, the other cannot.
Wait a minute. Light only targets objects (and squares, which will do nothing). Your stealth disruptor just failed.
So long as it has a weapon, armor, a piece of jewelry, or even an arrow stuck within its flesh from an attack made by the ranger, you can target it by proxy. Creatures wielding equipment are in enough supply that the cantrip has more than little potential.
Except those are all actual combat bonuses that don't require your DM to allow them to happen.
Mage Hand, of all the cantrips, is the one that has definitive abilities which don't need to be adjudicated by a DM. It's properties are spelled out plain as day. Under the condition that a DM decides that invisible light sources are no longer light sources, Mage Hand still has a vast amount of utility, and a definite degree of combat utility.
It's pretty damn clear that they can't be abused. Your Light trick just failed, and the Mage Hand trick is less than impressive thus far.
Also, I'm saying they can't, not that they won't. Even if they wanted to, they couldn't.
Actually, Light failing in the manner I've been speaking of works only under the tenets that your encounter involves no monsters with weapons, armor or jewelry, and nobody has a bow or crossbow with which to create a target otherwise. That's a lot of prerequisites to eliminate. Whether or not you think the ability to interact with objects from a distance of 5 squares as a minor action seems moot. You have your own preset ideas of what is worthwhile in the game and nothing else exists outside of that limited (albeit majority) component of the game.
No, the only thing I have is "They do suck." Which they do.
I don't think your opinion would bother me in the slightest if you admitted that it was only your opinion. It's your attempt at passing it off as objective fact that annoys me
I'm using "comb your hair and move a chair" as a synecdoche. Technically, you may not be able to comb your hair, but that really only serves to make it an exaggeration as well.
And if you were less insultive about
RARARARARARA
You backpedaled and insulted me. The worst I've done is **** on your argument. You insulted me in turn. At least I stick to the point (and the CoC).
Name one time I directly stated anything about you beyond calling you an elitist (which you've somewhat self-declared, as you yourself stated that optimizers such as yourself are the only ones with opinions that matter). It hasn't happened. On the other hand....[INDENT]
You'd have to be a butt****ing moron to consider that more useful than even a single point of damage.
[/INDENT]Sounds like something that is a generalized insult to everyone in this forum who disagrees with you. It's probably against the CoC as well.
And I implied that they do. What with their constant mathematical exercises and strict adherence to the rules.
Anyone can use constant mathematical exercises. This isn't something that only optimizers do. I spent a good while finding every single 22-point array in the game, which is a definite mathematical exercise, and not something that necessarily is part and parcel to optimization (considering you only need a few worthwhile arrays).
So I take it that it wasn't powergamers who managed to turn a character into a loaf of bread?
Do you honestly feel that the game should be balanced to handle characters specifically built within the constraints of the game to intentionally weak? Do you really feel that encounters should be structured so they are handled by a 20th level cleric with negative hit points, or are you just saying it for the sake of argument?
Except Knight's Move grants a free move action. Do you know what you can do with a free move action?
Impossible to Catch makes you invisible with all the bonuses that come with it.
It doesn't have any numbers. In accordance with your overall statement, it has no bonus, no penalty, no damage, no healing, and is therefore useless.
A move action as a free action is in the same boat as increasing the range of a minor action with a maximum distance of 1 square by 4, or turning two minor actions into one, or interacting with something at infinite range. It does something neat, but doesn't apparently fit your criteria.
I'm done with you. Have the last word if you want. Declare victory. I don't care.
This isn't about victory, and it never was. It's about finding a balanced manner by which cantrips could be placed into feats. We were actually coming up with a compromise between our exchanges (especially when we started talking multiclass feats), but it's hard to talk reasonably with you when your posts are covered in sardonic remarks.
This isn't about victory, and it never was. It's about finding a balanced manner by which cantrips could be placed into feats. We were actually coming up with a compromise between our exchanges (especially when we started talking multiclass feats), but it's hard to talk reasonably with you when your posts are covered in sardonic remarks.
This is why I'm dropping the conversation. You're a useless debate partner because you assume that a compromise implies some sort of middle ground, when it usually involves one side conceding. You also can't restrict your readings to content, which makes you unable to stay objective.
I don't think your opinion would bother me in the slightest if you admitted that it was only your opinion. It's your attempt at passing it off as objective fact that annoys me
You also assume that this is a matter of opinion. As soon as someone pre-emptively decides that something is a matter of opinion, then the whole debates becomes futile (this goes especially for a mathematical discussions, the whole point of which is objectivity).
I simply decided to not waste my time any more.
This is why I'm dropping the conversation. You're a useless debate partner because you assume that a compromise implies some sort of middle ground, when it usually involves one side conceding. You also can't restrict your readings to content, which makes you unable to stay objective.
It only involves one side conceding if the other side is absolutely correct. For all the pouting your doing, that hasn't happened. I've restricted my readings to the content exactly as given, which is the key reason I've largely stuck to discussing the only two cantrips that don't deal with a bunch of handwaving and circumstance. Light and Mage Hand are rather specific, and nothing I've spoken of goes against or beyond what is explicitly stated. The only real issue is the questionability of whether an invisible light source produces light (which will likely differ from DM to DM). Even losing that, it's still a damn effective way to nullify the stealth skill.
So where have I gone beyond info as written?
You also assume that this is a matter of opinion. As soon as someone pre-emptively decides that something is a matter of opinion, then the whole debates becomes futile (this goes especially for a mathematical discussions, the whole point of which is objectivity).
I simply decided to not waste my time any more.
Actually, much of this is objective. It's pretty obvious that these powers, for all intents and purposes, are pretty insignificant in comparison to other powers of similar stature. All of them are definitely less powerful than every 6th level utility power, and many of the 2nd level powers as well.
However, neither of these facts magically mean that the powers themselves are completely worthless, which seems to be the stance you are taking. You have nothing that proves absolute lack of worth, nor do you have anything that backs the idea that making a complete class feature accessible via a meager feat would be balanced. You've simply decided "I think they suck, so go for it", which doesn't serve any real purpose.