Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 cjay179 Dec 01, 2009 0:44:22	I've always liked the catfolk, having made one character six times to accomodate the changes in the games I've played and the books I've purchased. This is in response to a player wanting to bring in a character from MTG. The Razorclaw Shifter just wasn't the right flavor for catfolk. Okay, based on everyone's thoughts, here is a near final draft to the Catfolk race I've come up with. I'm pleading with myself that this does not become a duplicate of someone else's catfolk. Tell me what you think: Catfolk Quick in movement and thought, these savannah nomads rely on short bursts of energy to accomplish nearly every task. RACIAL TRAITS      Average Height: 5'4" - 5'9"      Average Weight: 120 - 150 lbs.      Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma      Size: Medium      Speed: 6 squares      Vision: Low-light      Languages: Common, choice of one other      Skill Bonuses: +2 Perception, +2 Stealth      Cat-Like Reflexes: You do not fall prone when you land from a fall (you still fall prone if you fall unconscious). You are considered as having a running start when making an Athletics check to jump.      Feral Runner: When both hands are free, your speed increases by 2. In addition, while both hands are free, you gain a +2 bonus to Acrobatics and Athletics checks.      Burst of Speed: You have the burst of speed power. Burst of Speed (catfolk racial power) Like the hunters you resemble, you use a swift sprint to close in on your prey. Encounter Move Action                    Personal Effect: Move a number of squares equal to twice your speed. If both hands are free, add your Dexterity modifier to the final number of squares you move. Quote from Race of the Wild: "The great tribes of the catfolk roam where they will, putting passion into every day of their varied lives." Yes, the catfolk can be found anywhere, they are just most likely to be found traveling the savannahs where they originate.
#2 Crimson_Concerto Dec 01, 2009 1:31:35	Why did this thread disappear when I tried to comment on it the first time? o_O Anyways, three general points: - Speed 8 is too much. The current fastest race is speed 7, and while Shifter can get to speed 8, it needs to be bloodied and then use its racial power to do so. - You should clarify that Cat-Like Reflexes doesn't keep you standing up if you fall unconscious as a result of the falling damage that you do take. - That racial power sounds far too powerful to me. I suggest either making it a move action instead of a minor action or removing that part where you get to take a move action as part of that minor action. Otherwise, this is actually a lot better than most versions of Cat Folk that I've seen around here, so kudos on that.
#3 chanter_hound Dec 01, 2009 3:01:37	I think that  "never fall prone from a fall" pretty much excludes becoming prone from being knocked unconcious or being knocked prone.
#4 pluisjen Dec 01, 2009 4:35:53	Agreed that speed 8 is to high. Also agreed that falling prone from unconsious still works under current writing, but that's debatable. For clarity, you could include it in parenthesis. As for the racial power... how about instead of 'take a move action', you make it 'move your speed'? That removes about 90% of the abuses (everything I can come up with is using the move action for something other then moving around... while moving really fast seems to be the flavor you are going for)
#5 Neutronium_Dragon Dec 01, 2009 10:22:56	The racial abilities are built around Athletics and Acrobatics, and there isn't much else to them - that's too narrow a focus. Worse, training in Acrobatics (which should be a sensible thing to do) actually reduces the effect of one of them. Since they have a racial Dex bonus, I think you'd be better off to change +2 Stealth to +2 Athletics, drop the Athletics racial, and drop the Acrobatics racial in favor of, "You never fall prone at the end of a fall." - that's a fairly minor racial, but it leaves room for something other than skill gimmicks as racials.
#6 Tectorman Dec 01, 2009 11:24:27	Speed 8: Absolutely not.  And especially not with that racial power in the mix. Feline: As per all the races introduced in the two PHBs and the FRPG and EPG, there exists no race that introduces a new language this way.  All of them, including the races from Faerun and Eberron that would actually have an excuse to be using a new language, instead only select from the ten languages in the PHB.  I recommend changing this to "Choice of one other". Everything else: Looks good, though I agree that some clarification of the racial power may be in order.
#7 kroska Dec 01, 2009 12:01:31	Practiced climber- This ability looks very simular to the Goliath racial ability called Powerful Athlete, it lets you roll two dice for athletics or acrobatics and then take the better result. Practiced climber is restricted down to athletics and it feels very simular. But most races have duplicate abilities and i really can't think of a different way of spinning the practiced climber ability to have it feel different from powerful athlete. You might want to fiddle with the mechanics of that ability, for instance it may be like the warforged resilence power, you can forgo rolling a die for your athletics check and take a automatic 10/15/20 (possibily scaling idea) as the result.  Maybe you could make a couple versions of the same ability like that and then present them all in this thread later and see what people say.  It could of course always fall back to the origional version which is already fine. So all in all things look pretty balanced and are very appealing to a rogue, assasin or barbarian class.
#8 ah_maclimeszero Dec 01, 2009 12:13:34	Practiced climber- This ability looks very simular to the Goliath racial ability called Powerful Athlete, it lets you roll two dice for athletics or acrobatics and then take the better result. Practiced climber is restricted down to athletics and it feels very simular. But most races have duplicate abilities and i really can't think of a different way of spinning the practiced climber ability to have it feel different from powerful athlete. This. It's a weaker version of an existing power. Now, in and of itself, that's not a problem. It's just not very attractive. What if we just outright gave them a climb speed of, say, 3? And clarify their encounter power to make sure it does not modify that as well.
#9 Chameleon-X Dec 01, 2009 14:47:22	I'd also suggest making the encounter power a move action. Also, I don't know if this was intended, or if it was a wording oversight, but RAW it appears as if the +2 bonus to speed doesn't apply to the move the power allows you to take.
#10 kroska Dec 01, 2009 18:47:55	Practiced climber- This ability looks very simular to the Goliath racial ability called Powerful Athlete, it lets you roll two dice for athletics or acrobatics and then take the better result. Practiced climber is restricted down to athletics and it feels very simular. But most races have duplicate abilities and i really can't think of a different way of spinning the practiced climber ability to have it feel different from powerful athlete. This. It's a weaker version of an existing power. Now, in and of itself, that's not a problem. It's just not very attractive. What if we just outright gave them a climb speed of, say, 3? And clarify their encounter power to make sure it does not modify that as well. Giving something a outright climb speed might be a bit much. I would reserve that for something that can climb on ceilings like a spider.  The RAW version is good and balanced but repitive to what already exist. So we have two suggestions on what may work, we still need more suggestions though. Something that may scale along with making climbing easier, but still give the chance for failure on higher checks.
#11 kroska Dec 01, 2009 22:17:40	Okay, I have had a lot of comments about the racial encounter power becoming a move action instead of a minor action. That would defeat the purpose of the power. Catfolk are sprinters, but it is only a short burst. With the use of this power they are able to make a triple move instead of a double move, essentially sprinting faster than any other character. Making this a move action would make it useless. Take a look at the dire tiger in MM2, this power is an emulation of that one. I'm actually thinking about removing the increase to speed altogether and reverting the catfolk back to a speed of 8 squares. Well, this is how touchy making a whole race is. Keep the speed at 7 and keep the encounter power as a minor action, but possbily lower the speed boost to 1 or omit it. Or simply create different versions of the same power using different mechanics that do simular things. A great idea is not going to stumbled upon right off but revealed after rethinking the same idea from different perspectives and view points repeatidly.
#12 ceiling90 Dec 01, 2009 22:40:01	I think two things, one make either athletics or acrobatics an automatically trained skill for the race; basically a free skill with only two choices really. That makes is a little bit more unique if just more a rip on humans really... as to a fluff reason, no matter the actual aptitude of the individual being scholar or warrior, it's an innate thing? bleh Two, drop the speed down to 6. Then make burst of speed a minor action of "move your speed + dex modifier squares." That gives it massive scaling issue, you get to be ridiculously fast. If anything, at 30 dex you move 16 squares as a minor action. That's maybe bit much. Eh. Ideally, 6 speed is good enough, with the racial being a minor that allows you move your speed. That's still essentially three moves actions, within the idea of a burst of speed; since a few things can take the use of a move action versus an actual move. That racial allows you move 18 squares at level 1 within a round; you are ridiculous fast. Only thing that could top that is an Elf or Gnoll Damhpyr; which come to think of it is ultimately beaten by a bloodied Razorclaw Shifter Damhpyr Monk using dancing cobra twice in a round for a move of 22; though they still get a minor action left. Hmmm.... You know what. Change speed to 7, make the encounter power a move action, and make it "move your speed + dex modifier squares". So you're moving something like 24 squares with a 30 dex with two move actions. 26 if you're a monk and use Dancing Cobra then your racial.  Or really just put a fixed number onto that "your speed + x squares". Like... 3. Just putting my thought processes into that...
#13 Crimson_Concerto Dec 01, 2009 22:49:24	What if the power is a Move action and had the effect line of: "Take a Double Move action."?
#14 Neutronium_Dragon Dec 01, 2009 23:17:17	To address the things that I and others have raised, here's what I'd suggest. Speed is lowered but Burst of Speed is tidier and deals with the issue. The racial skill bonuses are shifted to be what the racial traits were focusing on, because if they're focused on those then that's where the skill bonuses should be in the first place. The racial traits have thus been pared down to make room for something else - which it really needs because as it was written at the top of the post there's really no good mechanical reason to play this race, and there should be. (Yes, a good story/theme is also necessary, but a good story/theme won't rescue a mechanically weak race.) The language issue is also fixed. The two ?????? entries should really deal with something other than skills and absolutely shouldn't have anything more to do with Acrobatics or Athletics. ----- RACIAL TRAITS Average Height: 5'4" - 5'9" Average Weight: 120 - 150 lbs. Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma Size: Medium Speed: 6 squares Vision: Low-light Languages: Common, choice of one other. Skill Bonuses: +2 Acrobatics, +2 Athletics. SomethingOtherThanSkillMonkeyAbility1: ????? SomethingOtherThanSkillMonkeyAbility2: ????? Catfolk Reflexes: You do not fall prone when you land from a fall, and you gain a +5 bonus to Athletics checks made to Catch Hold. Burst of Speed: You have the burst of speed power. Burst of Speed (catfolk racial power) Like the hunters you resemble, you use a swift sprint to close in on your prey. Encounter Minor Action Personal Effect: Your speed increases by 2 until the end of your turn.
#15 kroska Dec 01, 2009 23:32:09	Thats certianly a different take on the RAW version Neutronium. I'll have to keep thinking of more suggestions but keep at it Cjay, you'll have a fun race yet.
#16 Damon_Tor Dec 02, 2009 14:20:20	Idea: Speed: 6 Feral Sprint: When you have two free hands, you get a +2 bonus to speed and to acrobatics and athletics checks. The idea is you can run on all fours.  This ability would probably replace the existing acrobatics and athletics boosters, which might be a bit too strong.
#17 ah_maclimeszero Dec 02, 2009 14:23:13	Idea: Speed: 6 Feral Sprint: When you have two free hands, you get a +2 bonus to speed and to acrobatics and athletics checks. The idea is you can run on all fours.  This ability would probably replace the existing acrobatics and athletics boosters, which might be a bit too strong. Catmonk ftw!
#18 Damon_Tor Dec 02, 2009 14:23:58	And for the record, I don't have a problem with a minor "move your speed" ability, since it's just an encounter power.
#19 Damon_Tor Dec 02, 2009 14:25:26	Idea: Speed: 6 Feral Sprint: When you have two free hands, you get a +2 bonus to speed and to acrobatics and athletics checks. The idea is you can run on all fours.  This ability would probably replace the existing acrobatics and athletics boosters, which might be a bit too strong. Catmonk ftw! Yes, they would be very fast.
#20 Crimson_Concerto Dec 02, 2009 14:29:27	I don't know, I think that might actually be too good for Monks...
#21 chanter_hound Dec 02, 2009 15:24:25	Well, unlike some other ones though, it also can help some spell casters.
#22 lord_raziere Dec 02, 2009 23:15:32	hmm......with all the refining it seems almost done..... lets see the classes that catfolk have potential to be: Rogue, Sorcerer, Bard, Warlock, Avenger, Wizard......basically all the classes drow or halflings have potential to be. so I wouldn't just characterize them as nomads on the savannah, more like one of those semi-civilization races that can easily choose multiple types of lifestyles, that can be found in cities in offbeat cultures and odd neighborhoods, while at the same time can be found being some traveling merchant, or some roaming tribe, or among elves......and clearly they wouldn't be straight fighter guys, Catfolk would probably rely a little more on wits and cunning. overall? drow would be these guys if everyone didn't hate them, or halflings would be these guys if they were tall.
#23 kroska Dec 02, 2009 23:16:56	Idea: Speed: 6 Feral Sprint: When you have two free hands, you get a +2 bonus to speed and to acrobatics and athletics checks. The idea is you can run on all fours. This ability would probably replace the existing acrobatics and athletics boosters, which might be a bit too strong. Catmonk ftw! I kinda like this idea. Its very new and outside the box.
#24 Damon_Tor Dec 03, 2009 1:06:25	I don't know, I think that might actually be too good for Monks... Just 1 square faster than an elf or gnoll monk, and at high levels monks can move further than their movespeed anyway.  There's a bit of precedent here with half-orcs getting +2 while charging I suppose.
#25 Crimson_Concerto Dec 03, 2009 1:19:27	There's a bit of precedent here with half-orcs getting +2 while charging I suppose. That feature is horribly designed, and I want to give whatever designer thought that was a good idea a piece of my mind. I allow my player to obtain a bonus heroic tier racial feat instead of taking that racial feature exactly because the feature pigeon-holes Half-Orcs into STR-based, weapon-using, melee classes, so I wouldn't use that as precedent. That being said, however, I think that this one might actually be okay for me to let go. It has particularly obvious synnergy with the Monk, but it's not difficult for other classes to make great use of it as well.
#26 chanter_hound Dec 04, 2009 2:34:49	And crim, there i have to disagree with you. the +2 to charge doesn't. Esspecially with some of the new powers coming out that are replacing melee basic attacks. the +2 str is pigenholing them into a str based build.
#27 Jib916 Dec 04, 2009 5:36:17	I have had other ideas about a cat race. I like the power, but change it to move your speed only. Heres a Suggestion Change or add a feature..Cat Like Reflexs Cat Like Reflexs = +2(or 3?) To Reflex Let me know what u think. (i also had an idea about a feature 9 Lives.. (Start Each Tier with 9 Life instead of amont given by class.. i thought this might be to broken though..
#28 Crimson_Concerto Dec 04, 2009 6:43:45	And crim, there i have to disagree with you. the +2 to charge doesn't. Esspecially with some of the new powers coming out that are replacing melee basic attacks. No, you are mistaken. Charging is a standard action, and standard actions are the action that you use to fulfill your class and party role. Charging doesn't fit into every class's party roles, because charging is a melee action. Even if you class happens to grant you some powers that can be used in place of melee basic attacks, your class does that because it's expecting you to be in melee combat, and not every class or role is ever going to expect that (examples: Warlock, Wizard, Invoker, Shaman, Sorcerer). Now, specific builds of such classes may do so, but they are highly specialized to the point of being ridiculous to expect every member of a race to have that build. Thus, without being at all useful to ranged classes and roles in general, +2 speed on a charge serves only to pigeon-hole the Half-Orc into melee roles, the roles that might actually want to use their standard action to charge. Furthermore, not all melee classes and roles are STR-based or ever want to make a melee basic attack (Avenger is a good example, can't make a meaningful MBA without a meaningful STR score). There are ways to make this feature useful to them (Melee Training feat, some specific power selections), but if you have to go out of your way to fix it such that you can make use of your racial feature, then that's because there was a problem with the way it worked to begin with. the +2 str is pigenholing them into a str based build. Absolutely false. It definitely has great synergy with STR-based builds, but one does not have to play a STR-based build in order to benefit from everything that a STR boost has to offer. If you have any further questions about the matter, then please PM me.
#29 pigfiend Dec 05, 2009 19:46:16	No, you are mistaken. Charging is a standard action, ... Absolutely false. It definitely has great synergy with STR-based builds, but one does not have to play a STR-based build in order to benefit from everything that a STR boost has to offer. It's weird how hung up you are on the charging facet to half-orcs. Not counting low-light vision, half-orcs get three pretty good traits. Their Resilience and Furious Assault are beneficial to most builds. The Swift Charge remains a tactic for creative Brutal Scoundrels, Dragon Magicians, and versatile Rangers. A decent strength means a fair chance at scoring a hit, but more importantly that primitive blood lust can give the speed boost might need to maneuver closer to an ally or farther away from foes and hazards. Anyway, how often does even a half-orc PC need or opt to charge 7 squares? I bet it comes up infrequently enough that it might come up more often for a canny player using it as a positional tool than for a character made to be a charging maniac.
#30 Crimson_Concerto Dec 06, 2009 0:32:13	It's weird how hung up you are on the charging facet to half-orcs. It's really not that weird. I dislike racial pigeon-holing. It's bad. Not counting low-light vision, half-orcs get three pretty good traits. Their Resilience and Furious Assault are beneficial to most builds. I think you missed the point. Yes, the other two Half-Orc racial features are absolutely perfectly well-designed. It's only Swift Charge that's holding the Half-Orc back. If you get 67% correct, that's still a failing grade. The Swift Charge remains a tactic for creative Brutal Scoundrels, Dragon Magicians, and versatile Rangers. Sure, and it remains absolutely useless for laser Clerics, CHA-ladins, Archer Rangers, Artful Rogues, Warlocks, Wizards, Shielding Swordmages, Avengers, Bards, Druids, Invokers, Shamans, Wild and Storm Sorcerers, and Artificers. A decent strength means a fair chance at scoring a hit... It's incorrect to assume that a Half-Orc will have a STR score decent enough to make a meaningful melee basic attack. In fact, it's incorrect to assume that a Half-Orc will have a weapon with which to make a meaningul melee basic attack in the first place. It's even incorrect to assume that a Half-Orc will want to charge to begin with or that it has taken upon a melee-based class or role. ...but more importantly that primitive blood lust can give the speed boost might need to maneuver closer to an ally or farther away from foes and hazards. Anyway, how often does even a half-orc PC need or opt to charge 7 squares? I bet it comes up infrequently enough that it might come up more often for a canny player using it as a positional tool than for a character made to be a charging maniac. A standard action positioning tool? This is a terrible idea the vast majority of the time, and I very much doubt that a truly "canny" player would bother with such nonsense. The few times this could possibly come up, the character is likely just as well off or possibly even better off taking a move action or maybe a double move action to run.
#31 pigfiend Dec 11, 2009 9:59:36	I think you missed the point. Yes, the other two Half-Orc racial features are absolutely perfectly well-designed. It's only Swift Charge that's holding the Half-Orc back. If you get 67% correct, that's still a failing grade. By this logic, the Dwarf is bad for having a trait that is meaningless if you play a character in light armour yet a different trait that is redundant if you play a class that is proficient in military weapons. Unless you obsess on it, Swift Charge is such a drop in the bucket. In a three hour game session with average dungeon crawl style combat, I bet it comes up once or not at all that a melee half-orc charges 7 or 8 squares. I'm beginning to think you'd be happier with the half-orc if it was presented without the Swift Charge trait in the first place. It would still look rich in comparison to the shifter. 'Pigeonholing' is overstating what's merelya dubious advantage. If you asked me whether a half-orc avenger was better than a half-orc sorceror based on the existence of Swift Charge, you'd get an unenthused, "Yeah, somewhat, I guess." Swift Charge is not that great, but it does at least combine with the half-orc's other traits to conjure the image of a brash maniac swinging a weapon. Clear archetypes are a good way to sell your race and the game generally (and I don't mean just $ but winning over hearts). That elf PCs are all proficient with bows doesn't really do anything for one that's a ranger, but it fixes an image in mind. Those inclined to will seek other race/class combos for creative expression  and also demonstrate hidden synergies. Such opportunities to work against type are candy to a fair amount of D&D's audience. Haha. Now for all that, I actually do find the Feral Runner trait to be pigeonholing because it's not that much fun for anyone but a monk - somewhat more narrow than 'someone with a melee weapon'. Even just having to keep saying that you spend your minor action to put away your staff and then next turn, spend it to take it back out seems not that much fun for that player or the others at the table. I faced this same idea for a homebrew race of my own with variations of having hands free or even being prone, but I think that flavour is best left as flavour. For the sake of punchier text and play, just make the speed 7 or make a really good racial move ability, with the flavour text suggestive of a posture like a cheetah.
#32 Crimson_Concerto Dec 11, 2009 10:45:24	By this logic, the Dwarf is bad for having a trait that is meaningless if you play a character in light armour yet a different trait that is redundant if you play a class that is proficient in military weapons. Yes, exactly. The racial weapon proficiency is relatively easy to let slide because it's equally useless to almost everybody, because if you care about the weapon, then your class already gives you the proficiency, and because if your class doesn't already give you the proficiency, then you don't care about the weapon, so it turns out that it's essentially equally useless to almost everybody. But the whole speed in heavy armor thing is one of those things that I think should have died in the transition to 4E. Unless you obsess on it, Swift Charge is such a drop in the bucket. In a three hour game session with average dungeon crawl style combat, I bet it comes up once or not at all that a melee half-orc charges 7 or 8 squares. Not at all relevant to my point. My point about it as a positioning maneuver is that a creative player might use it that odd way almost as often as a dedicated melee half-orc will actually take advantage of those extra squares. Creative =/= Smart "You could use it to do something that's not a good idea!" is not reasonable justification. It might be a bit tangential, but I really think that's an all right choice if you >have< to get somewhere with more than one move action. A half-orc dragon magic sorceror with a magic dagger and an okay strength as his secondary ability has probably what amounts to only -2 less to attack than with his sorceror powers (if you count proficiency bonus versus AC as a wash). If the alternative is running and granting combat advantage, why not potentially deal some damage that might make the difference? A) Lot of reasons. Charging is a standard action, you need to attack an enemy in melee and end up adjacent to it when you charge, and you have to end your turn after you're done charging. In your scenario, your Sorcerer is much better off taking his standard action to attack with one of his Sorcerer powers and then run. B) The sorts of scenarios where the ability might actually be useful to a caster are very contrived, and a racial feature that only comes up during such a contrived scenario might as well not exist and be replaced with something that characters are going to actually use. In most parties I've played in, even in-character dialogue encourages casters to pick up a hand-me-down melee weapon for their off-hand so that occasionally they can tag with an opportunity attack. That's a terrible idea.
#33 pigfiend Dec 11, 2009 11:11:23	I'd actually changed my mind on the approach and edited my post. It was getting heavy toward my use of a corner case tactic to compare with how ineffectual the trait is when used to 'great' effect when I think the better point is whether or not it's all right for a race to create one impression that's stronger than others. ex: half-orcs beat things with axes, catfolk are swift
#34 Damon_Tor Dec 11, 2009 13:05:46	In most parties I've played in, even in-character dialogue encourages casters to pick up a hand-me-down melee weapon for their off-hand so that occasionally they can tag with an opportunity attack. That's a terrible idea. I disagree.  A free melee basic, even at -15% to hit and -3 damage, is more useful to a wizard than the small boost to carrying capacity they get from a +2 to str.
#35 Crimson_Concerto Dec 11, 2009 13:28:07	I disagree.  A free melee basic, even at -15% to hit and -3 damage, is more useful to a wizard than the small boost to carrying capacity they get from a +2 to str. If your melee basic attack is really only at -15% to hit and -3 damage compared to a STR-based-melee-weapon build, then you've got other things going on there that have been constructed to specifically favor this tactic, and you're still better off selling that old weapon for gold you can use to buy equipment that actually matters to you and using that hand for something else.
#36 Crimson_Concerto Dec 11, 2009 13:39:23	I'm beginning to think you'd be happier with the half-orc if it was presented without the Swift Charge trait in the first place. Beginning to think? I haven't outright stated so? Uh, yeah, I'd be much happier if the Half-Orc had something else instead of Swift Charge. Swift Charge is not that great, but it does at least combine with the half-orc's other traits to conjure the image of a brash maniac swinging a weapon. Clear archetypes are a good way to sell your race and the game generally (and I don't mean just $ but winning over hearts). There are plenty of ways to do that without a mechanic that pigeon-holes characters into specific classes or roles or else be totally useless. Haha. Now for all that, I actually do find the Feral Runner trait to be pigeonholing because it's not that much fun for anyone but a monk - somewhat more narrow than 'someone with a melee weapon'. But at least every character will correctly be expected to have the means to benefit from that feature. If you ever need yourself a speed boost, just stow equipment, and ta-da. You're right in that it certainly has significantly better synnergy with the monk, yes, and that's why I still think it's somewhat suspect, but I dont' think it's nearly as bad as the Half-Orc's Swift Charge. Expecting that a character is able to stow hand-held equipment is much more reasonable and less restrictive than expecting that a character is playing a STR-based, weapon-using, melee class and role. Even just having to keep saying that you spend your minor action to put away your staff and then next turn, spend it to take it back out seems not that much fun for that player or the others at the table. I faced this same idea for a homebrew race of my own with variations of having hands free or even being prone, but I think that flavour is best left as flavour. For the sake of punchier text and play, just make the speed 7 or make a really good racial move ability, with the flavour text suggestive of a posture like a cheetah. You're right. That approach is much more likely to result in a race that's more balanced, more playable, and more fun.
#37 Tectorman Dec 12, 2009 15:58:03	Curse this beta version.  My responses are in bold. I'm beginning to think you'd be happier with the half-orc if it was presented without the Swift Charge trait in the first place. Beginning to think? I haven't outright stated so? Uh, yeah, I'd be much happier if the Half-Orc had something else instead of Swift Charge. I think he means "take the Half-Orc, as is, remove the Swift Charge trait, add nothing in its place, take the remains as the final race".  Which would be less pigeon-holed and better designed, even if it did result in the race being less capable (a la the Shifter). Swift Charge is not that great, but it does at least combine with the half-orc's other traits to conjure the image of a brash maniac swinging a weapon. Clear archetypes are a good way to sell your race and the game generally (and I don't mean just $ but winning over hearts). There are plenty of ways to do that without a mechanic that pigeon-holes characters into specific classes or roles or else be totally useless. Take a look at the Goliath and the Warforged (not directed at CC). Haha. Now for all that, I actually do find the Feral Runner trait to be pigeonholing because it's not that much fun for anyone but a monk - somewhat more narrow than 'someone with a melee weapon'. But at least every character will correctly be expected to have the means to benefit from that feature. If you ever need yourself a speed boost, just stow equipment, and ta-da. You're right in that it certainly has significantly better synnergy with the monk, yes, and that's why I still think it's somewhat suspect, but I dont' think it's nearly as bad as the Half-Orc's Swift Charge. Expecting that a character is able to stow hand-held equipment is much more reasonable and less restrictive than expecting that a character is playing a STR-based, weapon-using, melee class and role. Even just having to keep saying that you spend your minor action to put away your staff and then next turn, spend it to take it back out seems not that much fun for that player or the others at the table. I faced this same idea for a homebrew race of my own with variations of having hands free or even being prone, but I think that flavour is best left as flavour. For the sake of punchier text and play, just make the speed 7 or make a really good racial move ability, with the flavour text suggestive of a posture like a cheetah. You're right. That approach is much more likely to result in a race that's more balanced, more playable, and more fun. My personal quick fix is to make the Swift Charge bonus apply to charging and running, and then make the bonus be only +1.  Even if a Half-Orc Wizard will never want to charge, running is a role-neutral action.
#38 pigfiend Dec 12, 2009 18:05:23	I disagree.  A free melee basic, even at -15% to hit and -3 damage, is more useful to a wizard than the small boost to carrying capacity they get from a +2 to str. If your melee basic attack is really only at -15% to hit and -3 damage compared to a STR-based-melee-weapon build, then you've got other things going on there that have been constructed to specifically favor this tactic, and you're still better off selling that old weapon for gold you can use to buy equipment that actually matters to you and using that hand for something else. Short of a feat, it's a strategy that better fits to heroic tier, but getting 1/5th residuum or gold for a weapon that's a + behind gets you something less fun than some better opportunity attack potential. Maybe it's peculiar to the games I've been in, but monsters routinely move through threatened squares of the guy with the implement. It's like an insult. True enough, the effectiveness will diminish once you get into paragon, but prior to that, it's pretty fun.