Changeku - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Changeku

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
babyj
Jul 31, 2010 18:39:27 My players want to play of Changeling/Kenku half-breeds for the ability to mimic voices as well as change shape, thus achieving the ultimate race blending for assassins.

marks4thedwiki.wikispaces.com/Changeku

PEACH, Thank you!
#2
alitain
Jul 31, 2010 19:44:43 I guess its okay. The thing is though in my mind the whole point of the race is just to have both change shape and mimicry. And that's ONLY because they just want to be better at disguising themselves. Big whoop.

I mean the race is JUST those two abilities pretty much. And no dual heritage I'm not counting as a racial trait because there's no kenku feats and basically no changeling feats. Here's one thing to. Having that dual heritage feat that one could take to gain racial traits is oaky I guess if you want to go that route, but do not put in the +1 to Wis. You can get paragon defenses and robust defenses, and other feats that're better if you just want a Wis boost.

If your players JUST want the mimicry to be better assassins then just give them a magic item. Like the gloves that let you use mage hand and prestigitation. Just give them a magic item that changes their voices. To me that would be a simpler way. The race is just bland to me because there's nothing to it because the whole reason for it is just so your players can gain a fun ability.
#3
babyj
Aug 01, 2010 11:59:53 Okok, I digress, the race is pretty bland. Thanks for the feedback.

I personally disliked the idea of a race being so pigeonholed into a stealth class, but if the players REALLY want a Changeling/Kenku, then I will oblige within reason.

Regarding using magic items to achieve the same thing, I think the idea is to have these racial abilities without the use of magical items...

Also, the argument for tossing the +1 racial bonus to Will from the racial feat does not make sense to me. The bonuses you describe do not give one the same thing, for example, the +1 racial bonus does not equate to a +1 feat bonus to Will from the paragon defenses feat (because these two can be combined due to the differently typed bonuses).

The things I DO agree with, however, is the total absence of racial feats for Kenku, and a lack of feats for Changeling (there ARE some for Artificer and Assassin, but little else..). I will be writing some for the kenku to make up for this, but that is another matter altogether.

Since you mentioned it; I am interested to know, what would you (Alitain or anyone else) add then to make it less bland? In terms of racial qualities? How can I improve it?
#4
rampant
Aug 01, 2010 13:31:09 The main problem most people get into with hybrids is they try to cherry pick abilities from parent races.

In order to make a hybrid race stand out it needs to have its own thing. It can be based on or similar to something form a parent race but still distinct. Look at the half-orc and half-elf. (half-elf especially)

That's the problem with trying to create a race just because a player wants some ability combo, the player isn't likely to give you any sort of idea about history, society, philosophy, culture, or lack thereof with the race. Heck I wonder if they've even thought about what that would look like.
#5
alitain
Aug 01, 2010 14:16:28 I skinny, pale skinned person with cotton candy colored feathers on their body, and beak. That's what Changeku would look like, haha!

The reason why I mentioned the Will bonus is that while sure a racial bonus and feat bonus aren't the same, personally I just can't see the point in wasting a feat to get a +1 bonus when I can get at epic robust defenses and whatever the feat is that gives the +2 or 3 to only Will. But hey, its your deal like I said just my opinion.

As for something to make it unique...sheesh that's hard considering the base races. Kenku have like nothing.

The problem I see as has been mentioned is that the only reason for the race is to get a special ability so your players can just disguise themselves better. I think the best thing to do is either say no, they can just make due without being able to mimic voices, give them an item, or just give them the bloody ability but have them stay Changeling.

Like rampant mentioned, there's really no background to the race, no plausibility to it. I think maybe a first step would be to tell your players that if they want some hybrid race that they need to actually develop a background to it. See if they can justify the, no offense, absurdity of the race.

Even having mimicry and change shape as powers isn't powerful. I would give them the +1 racial to Will at least, or the kenku flock effect. Or both, I mean and no offense to you because I get why you're doing this, if your just going to hybrid those two races only for the sake of your players wanting a power, just mash the two races together and give them everything. Neither race has anything too spectacular.
#6
rampant
Aug 01, 2010 14:23:47 The gnoll has a feat called butcher's lure that grants the mimicry ability.

Maybe you could try that make the changeling take it as a feat. I mean it would make sense for them to have that feat.
#7
alitain
Aug 01, 2010 14:48:40 Totally forgot about that. I think you got a good idea there rampant. It makes things much simpler. Just let them take that same feat to get mimicry. And that way you don't have to go through all the mess of trying to make a race for no real reason.
#8
rampant
Aug 01, 2010 14:52:17 Call it trickster's lure though.

Butcher's lure sounds wrong for a changeling feat.
#9
babyj
Aug 03, 2010 17:05:29 Reading Butcher's Lure, I do not see that it grants mimicry; it instead grants a different ability - Ghost Sound. Wouldn't it make sense that someone using Ghost Sound to mimic voices would have to make a Bluff check to notice the voice doesn't sound right, and do so with a significant penalty when compared to one using a Kenku's mimicry feature?

Otherwise, everyone with Ghost Sound would be just as good at the attempt as a Kenku (who is definitely better suited for such a task). This would not make the player very happy I might add...an item might be my best option in this case.
#10
rampant
Aug 03, 2010 19:03:23 Seems that Ghost sound is actually more versatile, granting you even more control over the sounds, I'd say your bluff vs. their insight to tell if it seems off.

#11
babyj
Aug 03, 2010 22:22:52 Ah I see what you're saying now Rampant. Since ghost sound is a magical effect, and has a range of 10. But now that I am reading it in this way, I kinda see that effect as unerring, and not requiring a Bluff vs Insight. Notice that mimicry's description is illicit in its statement of making a Bluff vs Insight, whereas ghost sound makes no mention of such a thing. I am inclined to agree, but now I see the power of the kenku as total crap!

ugh...well I posted a question in Rules Q&A to get more input on the comparison of the two, but mimicry has lost alot of oomph after this discussion imo..
#12
alitain
Aug 03, 2010 23:40:47 The thing though to, and I didn't think about this before but Ghost Sounds does say it can only produce "nonverbal" sounds. To me that always meant it can't reproduce actual words, like you can't use it to talk for you. Then on the other hand the last part of the power does say if you whisper you can make it so a person in the range or whatever can hear you, so I don't know.

And here's another thing to consider with Ghost Sounds. Even if it can, or you choose to, have it reproduce actual words then the player still needs to move their mouth so it looks like they're talking. Honestly, in my opinion this would require a Bluff check to make the person or people the player is talking to believe the words are coming from their mouth.

Mimicry on the other hand is you actually speaking, your real voice you've just learned to be able to change that voice into something else, which is why its a Bluff check.

From what your players are wanting, Mimicry is what they need not Ghost Sounds. Just have them take a feat like the Gnoll one for Ghost Sounds, but have it give them Mimicry instead.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 babyj Jul 31, 2010 18:39:27	My players want to play of Changeling/Kenku half-breeds for the ability to mimic voices as well as change shape, thus achieving the ultimate race blending for assassins. marks4thedwiki.wikispaces.com/Changeku PEACH, Thank you!
#2 alitain Jul 31, 2010 19:44:43	I guess its okay. The thing is though in my mind the whole point of the race is just to have both change shape and mimicry. And that's ONLY because they just want to be better at disguising themselves. Big whoop. I mean the race is JUST those two abilities pretty much. And no dual heritage I'm not counting as a racial trait because there's no kenku feats and basically no changeling feats. Here's one thing to. Having that dual heritage feat that one could take to gain racial traits is oaky I guess if you want to go that route, but do not put in the +1 to Wis. You can get paragon defenses and robust defenses, and other feats that're better if you just want a Wis boost. If your players JUST want the mimicry to be better assassins then just give them a magic item. Like the gloves that let you use mage hand and prestigitation. Just give them a magic item that changes their voices. To me that would be a simpler way. The race is just bland to me because there's nothing to it because the whole reason for it is just so your players can gain a fun ability.
#3 babyj Aug 01, 2010 11:59:53	Okok, I digress, the race is pretty bland. Thanks for the feedback. I personally disliked the idea of a race being so pigeonholed into a stealth class, but if the players REALLY want a Changeling/Kenku, then I will oblige within reason. Regarding using magic items to achieve the same thing, I think the idea is to have these racial abilities without the use of magical items... Also, the argument for tossing the +1 racial bonus to Will from the racial feat does not make sense to me. The bonuses you describe do not give one the same thing, for example, the +1 racial bonus does not equate to a +1 feat bonus to Will from the paragon defenses feat (because these two can be combined due to the differently typed bonuses). The things I DO agree with, however, is the total absence of racial feats for Kenku, and a lack of feats for Changeling (there ARE some for Artificer and Assassin, but little else..). I will be writing some for the kenku to make up for this, but that is another matter altogether. Since you mentioned it; I am interested to know, what would you (Alitain or anyone else) add then to make it less bland? In terms of racial qualities? How can I improve it?
#4 rampant Aug 01, 2010 13:31:09	The main problem most people get into with hybrids is they try to cherry pick abilities from parent races. In order to make a hybrid race stand out it needs to have its own thing. It can be based on or similar to something form a parent race but still distinct. Look at the half-orc and half-elf. (half-elf especially) That's the problem with trying to create a race just because a player wants some ability combo, the player isn't likely to give you any sort of idea about history, society, philosophy, culture, or lack thereof with the race. Heck I wonder if they've even thought about what that would look like.
#5 alitain Aug 01, 2010 14:16:28	I skinny, pale skinned person with cotton candy colored feathers on their body, and beak. That's what Changeku would look like, haha! The reason why I mentioned the Will bonus is that while sure a racial bonus and feat bonus aren't the same, personally I just can't see the point in wasting a feat to get a +1 bonus when I can get at epic robust defenses and whatever the feat is that gives the +2 or 3 to only Will. But hey, its your deal like I said just my opinion. As for something to make it unique...sheesh that's hard considering the base races. Kenku have like nothing. The problem I see as has been mentioned is that the only reason for the race is to get a special ability so your players can just disguise themselves better. I think the best thing to do is either say no, they can just make due without being able to mimic voices, give them an item, or just give them the bloody ability but have them stay Changeling. Like rampant mentioned, there's really no background to the race, no plausibility to it. I think maybe a first step would be to tell your players that if they want some hybrid race that they need to actually develop a background to it. See if they can justify the, no offense, absurdity of the race. Even having mimicry and change shape as powers isn't powerful. I would give them the +1 racial to Will at least, or the kenku flock effect. Or both, I mean and no offense to you because I get why you're doing this, if your just going to hybrid those two races only for the sake of your players wanting a power, just mash the two races together and give them everything. Neither race has anything too spectacular.
#6 rampant Aug 01, 2010 14:23:47	The gnoll has a feat called butcher's lure that grants the mimicry ability. Maybe you could try that make the changeling take it as a feat. I mean it would make sense for them to have that feat.
#7 alitain Aug 01, 2010 14:48:40	Totally forgot about that. I think you got a good idea there rampant. It makes things much simpler. Just let them take that same feat to get mimicry. And that way you don't have to go through all the mess of trying to make a race for no real reason.
#8 rampant Aug 01, 2010 14:52:17	Call it trickster's lure though. Butcher's lure sounds wrong for a changeling feat.
#9 babyj Aug 03, 2010 17:05:29	Reading Butcher's Lure, I do not see that it grants mimicry; it instead grants a different ability - Ghost Sound. Wouldn't it make sense that someone using Ghost Sound to mimic voices would have to make a Bluff check to notice the voice doesn't sound right, and do so with a significant penalty when compared to one using a Kenku's mimicry feature? Otherwise, everyone with Ghost Sound would be just as good at the attempt as a Kenku (who is definitely better suited for such a task). This would not make the player very happy I might add...an item might be my best option in this case.
#10 rampant Aug 03, 2010 19:03:23	Seems that Ghost sound is actually more versatile, granting you even more control over the sounds, I'd say your bluff vs. their insight to tell if it seems off.
#11 babyj Aug 03, 2010 22:22:52	Ah I see what you're saying now Rampant. Since ghost sound is a magical effect, and has a range of 10. But now that I am reading it in this way, I kinda see that effect as unerring, and not requiring a Bluff vs Insight. Notice that mimicry's description is illicit in its statement of making a Bluff vs Insight, whereas ghost sound makes no mention of such a thing. I am inclined to agree, but now I see the power of the kenku as total crap! ugh...well I posted a question in Rules Q&A to get more input on the comparison of the two, but mimicry has lost alot of oomph after this discussion imo..
#12 alitain Aug 03, 2010 23:40:47	The thing though to, and I didn't think about this before but Ghost Sounds does say it can only produce "nonverbal" sounds. To me that always meant it can't reproduce actual words, like you can't use it to talk for you. Then on the other hand the last part of the power does say if you whisper you can make it so a person in the range or whatever can hear you, so I don't know. And here's another thing to consider with Ghost Sounds. Even if it can, or you choose to, have it reproduce actual words then the player still needs to move their mouth so it looks like they're talking. Honestly, in my opinion this would require a Bluff check to make the person or people the player is talking to believe the words are coming from their mouth. Mimicry on the other hand is you actually speaking, your real voice you've just learned to be able to change that voice into something else, which is why its a Bluff check. From what your players are wanting, Mimicry is what they need not Ghost Sounds. Just have them take a feat like the Gnoll one for Ghost Sounds, but have it give them Mimicry instead.