Changes made to the Goblin race to fit campaign - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jadebrain Mar 02, 2011 15:00:48	Hello, I want some input on some changes to the Goblin race that I made. In my campaign, Goblins have recently formed two respectable civilizations, thought there are still a few tribal goblins left. The two new goblin nations, Dinburra in the south and Ossilow in the north, are quite different: The Dinburra are friendlier, having quickly formed alliances with preexisting nations and aiding in their defense against enemy nations, while the Ossilow, owing to their spartan-like warrior culture, are a bit xenophobic and unwilling to open up to other nations. Sorry for the clutter, as I do not know how to use the spoiler boxes. Goblin Revision 1 (OUTDATED) Show Goblin RACIAL TRAITS Average Height: 3'4" - 3'8" Average Weight: 40 - 55 Ability scores: +2 Dexterity; +2 Wisdom or Charisma Size: Small Speed: 6 squares. Vision: Darkvision Languages: Common, Goblin Skill Bonuses: +2 Stealth, +2 Dungeoneering Goblin Reflexes: You gain a +1 racial bonus to your Reflex defense. Striker's Perspective: Your attacks against enemies granting you combat advantage deal 2 extra damage. Goblin Tactics: You can use goblin tactics as an at-will power. Goblin Tactics Goblin Racial Power You avoid your enemy’s blow and cleverly slink past his defenses. At-Will Immediate Reaction Personal Trigger: You are missed by a melee attack. Effect: You shift 1 square. The goblins mostly dwell in caves, with the civilized ones cultivating fungus or hunting underground animals and abberant beasts for food, as well as engaging in trade (the tribals still raid and pillage). This is why I replaced Thievery with Dungeoneering, and Low-light with Darkvision. The goblins' connection to nature and the underground, as well as the Dinburra goblins' fondness for hearing about other cultures, is the reason for their optional bonus to Wisdom. I added Striker's perspective to expand on their capabilities a little more, though it may be a little overpowered.
#2 Crimson_Concerto Mar 02, 2011 20:16:37	ARGH! I had a really long reply typed out, but somehow the site ate it. T_T Sigh Well I'll try to remember everything that I said... Vision: Darkvision This should be Low-Light Vision. Darkvision isn't given out to anything and everything anymore the same way that it was back in 3.5, and "living underground" is no longer sufficient excuse for granting it. The best example of this is Dwarves. Now, while it's true that there is one PC race that does get Darkvision, the Drow, realize that they get away with this because their intrinsic connection to darkness is a lot deeper than just that they live underground. I just don't see sufficient justification here to warrant Darkvision. Goblin Reflexes: You gain a +1 racial bonus to your Reflex defense. Yes, the NPC Goblin gets this, but a PC version shouldn't. Racial defense bonuses are typically reserved for races that have both of their ability score bonuses going towards abilities that would modify the same defense. For example, STR and CON both go towards Fortitude, so Goliath and Warforged both get +1 Will so that they keep up with other races in terms of defenses. Goblins don't have this problem, so giving them a racial defense bonus is unnecessary. Now, while it's true that it's certainly not unbalanced to give them this bonus, it is still very boring and unoriginal. That's not a problem for NPC race, but PC races should be getting something more interesting and unique. Dragonborn don't get +1 Fortitude; they get +CON to their healing surge value. Githzerai don't get +1 Will; they get +2 to saves versus dazed, dominated, and stunned. I just think that you can come up with something better than a boring +1 Reflex. Striker's Perspective: Your attacks against enemies granting you combat advantage deal 2 extra damage. I definitely think that this is overpowered. As any good Rogue can tell you, it's just far too easy to gain combat advantage every single round. Maybe if the bonus could be made more situational, such as if it only triggered against bloodied enemies, then it could work, but as it stands, it's probably more powerful than Oversized. Goblin Tactics: You can use goblin tactics as an at-will power. Goblin Tactics Goblin Racial Power You avoid your enemy’s blow and cleverly slink past his defenses. At-Will Immediate Reaction Personal Trigger: You are missed by a melee attack. Effect: You shift 1 square. This is another one of those things that's fine for an NPC race to do but probably isn't okay for a PC race to do. My recommendation would be to make it an encounter power but also make it more powerful. For example, what if it's trigger was being missed by any attack (not just a melee attack) and it also let you shift your speed (instead of only 1 square)?
#3 dieffenbachj Mar 03, 2011 1:51:17	I think that, while darkvision and the combat advantage damage bonus aren't overpowered in most circumstances, they can circumstantially become way too strong, and I wouldn't add them. Most of your feats appear to be underpowered, I would look up some more powerful equivalents for other races and adapt accordingly. Here's an Essentials-updated goblin race I made for my own games: Show GOBLIN Lurking in the shadows of society, goblins tell tales of their nearly forgotten empire. Racial Traits Average Height: 3'4”-3'8” Average Weight: 40-55 lb. Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity; +2 Constitution or +2 Wisdom Size: Small Speed: 6 squares Vision: Low-light Languages: Common, Goblin Skill Bonuses: +2 Stealth, +2 Thievery Ambusher: If you miss with a ranged attack while hidden, you remain hidden. Beast Rider: When you're mounted, you gain a +1 racial bonus to attack rolls. Goblin Agility: You gain a +1 racial bonus to your Reflex defense. Goblin Tactics: You have the goblin tactics power. Squalor: You have a +5 racial bonus to saving throws against disease.
#4 Crimson_Concerto Mar 03, 2011 2:56:31	Ambusher: If you miss with a ranged attack while hidden, you remain hidden. Features like this are inappropriate for PC races. It's great for some classes and roles while being completely useless for others. This is why features like Oversized don't exist on PC races and why racial features like the Minotaur's Heedless Charge or the Half-Orc's Swift Charge are looked down upon. Beast Rider: When you're mounted, you gain a +1 racial bonus to attack rolls. ...Interesting, is there any flavor to back up a feature like this? Because I'm skeptical of including mounts as essential to the use of a racial feature. Goblin Agility: You gain a +1 racial bonus to your Reflex defense. Goblin Tactics: You have the goblin tactics power. I recommend against these for the same reasons as stated above. Squalor: You have a +5 racial bonus to saving throws against disease. Of note, you only make saving throws against diseases that are the result of monster attacks, and even then only once at the end of the encounter when you were infected. Otherwise, diseases are dealt with via Endurance checks.
#5 Crimson_Concerto Mar 03, 2011 3:05:21	Darkvision is just a flavor benefit, not a powerlevel issue in any way. I know that this was directed toward dieffenbachj, but I'm still goint to point out that its power level is not as relevant as it's level of thematic appropriateness to whether it should be included. It's still not thematically appropriate, so it still shouldn't be included.
#6 jadebrain Mar 03, 2011 6:53:28	Hey guys. I heeded your advice, and posted a second revision of the Goblin race in the first post. Also, as you can see, I learned how to use spoiler boxes. That should remove some of the clutter.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

jadebrain

Mar 02, 2011 15:00:48

Hello,
I want some input on some changes to the Goblin race that I made. In my campaign, Goblins have recently formed two respectable civilizations, thought there are still a few tribal goblins left. The two new goblin nations, Dinburra in the south and Ossilow in the north, are quite different: The Dinburra are friendlier, having quickly formed alliances with preexisting nations and aiding in their defense against enemy nations, while the Ossilow, owing to their spartan-like warrior culture, are a bit xenophobic and unwilling to open up to other nations.

Sorry for the clutter, as I do not know how to use the spoiler boxes.

Goblin Revision 1 (OUTDATED)

Show

Goblin

RACIAL TRAITS

Average Height: 3'4" - 3'8"
Average Weight: 40 - 55

Ability scores: +2 Dexterity; +2 Wisdom or Charisma
Size: Small
Speed: 6 squares.
Vision: Darkvision

Languages: Common, Goblin
Skill Bonuses: +2 Stealth, +2 Dungeoneering
Goblin Reflexes: You gain a +1 racial bonus to your Reflex defense.

Striker's Perspective: Your attacks against enemies granting you combat advantage deal 2 extra damage.
Goblin Tactics: You can use goblin tactics as an at-will power.

Goblin Tactics Goblin Racial Power

You avoid your enemy’s blow and cleverly slink past his defenses.

At-Will
Immediate Reaction Personal

Trigger: You are missed by a melee attack.

Effect: You shift 1 square.

The goblins mostly dwell in caves, with the civilized ones cultivating fungus or hunting underground animals and abberant beasts for food, as well as engaging in trade (the tribals still raid and pillage). This is why I replaced Thievery with Dungeoneering, and Low-light with Darkvision.

The goblins' connection to nature and the underground, as well as the Dinburra goblins' fondness for hearing about other cultures, is the reason for their optional bonus to Wisdom.

I added Striker's perspective to expand on their capabilities a little more, though it may be a little overpowered.

Crimson_Concerto

Mar 02, 2011 20:16:37

ARGH! I had a really long reply typed out, but somehow the site ate it. T_T
*Sigh* Well I'll try to remember everything that I said...

Vision: Darkvision

This should be Low-Light Vision. Darkvision isn't given out to anything and everything anymore the same way that it was back in 3.5, and "living underground" is no longer sufficient excuse for granting it. The best example of this is Dwarves.
Now, while it's true that there is one PC race that does get Darkvision, the Drow, realize that they get away with this because their intrinsic connection to darkness is a lot deeper than just that they live underground. I just don't see sufficient justification here to warrant Darkvision.

Goblin Reflexes: You gain a +1 racial bonus to your Reflex defense.

Yes, the NPC Goblin gets this, but a PC version shouldn't. Racial defense bonuses are typically reserved for races that have both of their ability score bonuses going towards abilities that would modify the same defense. For example, STR and CON both go towards Fortitude, so Goliath and Warforged both get +1 Will so that they keep up with other races in terms of defenses. Goblins don't have this problem, so giving them a racial defense bonus is unnecessary.
Now, while it's true that it's certainly not unbalanced to give them this bonus, it is still very boring and unoriginal. That's not a problem for NPC race, but PC races should be getting something more interesting and unique. Dragonborn don't get +1 Fortitude; they get +CON to their healing surge value. Githzerai don't get +1 Will; they get +2 to saves versus dazed, dominated, and stunned. I just think that you can come up with something better than a boring +1 Reflex.

Striker's Perspective: Your attacks against enemies granting you combat advantage deal 2 extra damage.

I definitely think that this is overpowered. As any good Rogue can tell you, it's just far too easy to gain combat advantage every single round. Maybe if the bonus could be made more situational, such as if it only triggered against bloodied enemies, then it could work, but as it stands, it's probably more powerful than Oversized.

Goblin Tactics: You can use goblin tactics as an at-will power.

Goblin Tactics Goblin Racial Power
You avoid your enemy’s blow and cleverly slink past his defenses.
At-Will
Immediate Reaction Personal
Trigger: You are missed by a melee attack.
Effect: You shift 1 square.

This is another one of those things that's fine for an NPC race to do but probably isn't okay for a PC race to do. My recommendation would be to make it an encounter power but also make it more powerful. For example, what if it's trigger was being missed by any attack (not just a melee attack) and it also let you shift your speed (instead of only 1 square)?

dieffenbachj

Mar 03, 2011 1:51:17

I think that, while darkvision and the combat advantage damage bonus aren't overpowered in most circumstances, they can circumstantially become way too strong, and I wouldn't add them.

Most of your feats appear to be underpowered, I would look up some more powerful equivalents for other races and adapt accordingly.

Here's an Essentials-updated goblin race I made for my own games:

Show

GOBLIN
Lurking in the shadows of society, goblins tell tales of their nearly forgotten empire.
Racial Traits
Average Height: 3'4”-3'8”
Average Weight: 40-55 lb.

Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity; +2 Constitution or +2 Wisdom
Size: Small
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Low-light

Languages: Common, Goblin
Skill Bonuses: +2 Stealth, +2 Thievery
Ambusher: If you miss with a ranged attack while hidden, you remain hidden.
Beast Rider: When you're mounted, you gain a +1 racial bonus to attack rolls.
Goblin Agility: You gain a +1 racial bonus to your Reflex defense.
Goblin Tactics: You have the goblin tactics power.
Squalor: You have a +5 racial bonus to saving throws against disease.

Crimson_Concerto

Mar 03, 2011 2:56:31

Ambusher: If you miss with a ranged attack while hidden, you remain hidden.

Features like this are inappropriate for PC races. It's great for some classes and roles while being completely useless for others. This is why features like Oversized don't exist on PC races and why racial features like the Minotaur's Heedless Charge or the Half-Orc's Swift Charge are looked down upon.

Beast Rider:
When you're mounted, you gain a +1 racial bonus to attack rolls.
...Interesting, is there any flavor to back up a feature like this? Because I'm skeptical of including mounts as essential to the use of a racial feature.

Goblin Agility:
You gain a +1 racial bonus to your Reflex defense.
Goblin Tactics: You have the goblin tactics power.
I recommend against these for the same reasons as stated above.

Squalor:

You have a +5 racial bonus to saving throws against disease.
Of note, you only make saving throws against diseases that are the result of monster attacks, and even then only once at the end of the encounter when you were infected. Otherwise, diseases are dealt with via Endurance checks.

Crimson_Concerto

Mar 03, 2011 3:05:21

Darkvision is just a flavor benefit, not a powerlevel issue in any way.

I know that this was directed toward dieffenbachj, but I'm still goint to point out that its power level is not as relevant as it's level of thematic appropriateness to whether it should be included. It's still not thematically appropriate, so it still shouldn't be included.

jadebrain

Mar 03, 2011 6:53:28

Hey guys. I heeded your advice, and posted a second revision of the Goblin race in the first post. Also, as you can see, I learned how to use spoiler boxes. That should remove some of the clutter.